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  1. #561
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    how is it ending revenge plot when Tyrande cant kill Sylva with ELUNES POWER? she could literaly at the end of video walk away and go kill Sylvanas, just not with elunes power up...
    its not like Sylva cant be harmed with exception of Elunes power, sure would help as she is (was) powered by jailer, but thats it...
    But it could, Elune depower Tyrande because she wants to talk with her sister, can't do that if your avatar is dead.
    And now Tyrande was given the choice between revenge & renewal.

    Sylvanas even said it herself.

  2. #562
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    So we're left discussing whether the sunflower lady is a moron or not based on spacial dynamics that are simultaneously obscure and stupid.
    I think it's actually fascinating that they managed to construct a story that seems to be entirely reliant on coincidence and every major character being the most stupid version of themselves (which in some cases is the only version there is). Every single character that isn't a major villain seems to be stumbling into the major narrative beats because this team's writing requires them to be kept in the dark (just like the players) about all the actually relevant information.

    There's really nothing to discuss except the content of the next mystery box.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  3. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I though Azshara was written fairly well. Her story was let down ironically because of N'zoth being written as pretty dumb the patch right after, but I digress.

    Before that you have bit villains that work quite well. The Thunder King came across like sufficiently threatening. He suffered a tad simply because of the short time spent on buildup, but I was willing to believe he was both a global threat that conquered Pandaria and almost the world, and also how we defeated him in his stronghold.
    Yeah, point. I'm more referring to the biggest ones, your Deathwings, Illidans, LKs and Jailers. I really enjoyed Azshara, still really enjoy Denathrius and the Thunder King and Gul'dan are both top tier. Whenever it comes to the actual final antagonist though, with the possible exception of Garrosh since he didn't start out that way, they just shit the bed and we're left with a load of nothing. Even if the villain has good build-up like I'd argue N'zoth did they end up getting a shit ending.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I think it's actually fascinating that they managed to construct a story that seems to be entirely reliant on coincidence and every major character being the most stupid version of themselves (which in some cases is the only version there is). Every single character that isn't a major villain seems to be stumbling into the major narrative beats because this team's writing requires them to be kept in the dark (just like the players) about all the actually relevant information.

    There's really nothing to discuss except the content of the next mystery box.
    What I find most impressive is how it's at once needlessly convoluted and also very simple. Consider the entire Elune malarky and how you have to have a Phd. from the University of Smartass and also keep track of all the quest text in order to parse why the souls went to turbo hell anyway and what information any given character had at the time to make the decisions they did. If you do bother to go through this effort though you'll realize this entire tangled bullshit exists entirely to turn Tyrande into a peacenik and hand the Winter Queen one of four interchangable plot coupons.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  4. #564
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Their own fault. They created a setup in which we have a war neither side can win OR lose, because they need both to be equal to uphold the game's balance (ostensibly, anyway). That only goes so far, and so it's no surprise that every time they even hint at some sort of faction conflict it VERY quickly turns into "okay, but let's put this on hold to combat this REAL evil together". That's a pretty shitty constraint to write for.
    That's the main problem with faction war right there, the only thing worse than that is the annoying regularity with which they keep coming back to it, it's a storyline that can never be resolved and thus will always be unsatisfying, but the "WAR in WARcraft! herp derp!"-routine always seems to come through in the end...

    They even spent most of MoP telling us how bad faction war is, but nope, the Jailer's 6D chess game requires a war, so off we go again!

  5. #565
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    What I find most impressive is how it's at once needlessly convoluted and also very simple. Consider the entire Elune malarky and how you have to have a Phd. from the University of Smartass and also keep track of all the quest text in order to parse why the souls went to turbo hell anyway and what information any given character had at the time to make the decisions they did. If you do bother to go through this effort though you'll realize this entire tangled bullshit exists entirely to turn Tyrande into a peacenik and hand the Winter Queen one of four interchangable plot coupons.
    It seems that they spend all their time and effort on writing convoluted justifications for their story to make it "bulletproof" instead of, you know, actually telling a worthwhile story. Their storytelling gives answers to all the wrong questions while letting the big, important ones go unanswered. It's like they hired a team of reddit theorycrafters to write their lore.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  6. #566
    Quote Originally Posted by 8bithamster View Post
    jesus.. are people still saying Elune killed them? She states "AFTER THE TRAGEDY" as in post burning, post world tree bbq..
    They didnt wanna know that, bacause they wanna whine.

  7. #567
    Quote Originally Posted by Loreth88 View Post
    They didnt wanna know that, bacause they wanna whine.
    seems so. Like the trolls they are, facts are scary for them

  8. #568
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    Elune, from her pov, was merely guiding them safely to the next page. Thats not so bad, is it?
    Because of how Elune says it is something bad.
    Because Elune says she condemned them, not that it was the Blue Smurf's fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    But what really baffles me is that the Elves seem to be FINE with it. Literally 5 minutes later Tyrande is happily evoking Elune's name again. The goddess who literally threw them to the fire for her aloof reasons after millenia of worship by the Nightelves. Elune has her divine view point, but the Elves do not have that luxury. For them this all appears as nothing less then a betrayal by the one they trusted in most.
    Sure, maybe they could understand Elune's reasons, but not that fast and Tyrande isn't the most reasonable person at the best of times...
    Exactly this had to be the beginning of the Expansion. Elune just did the same thing the enemy is doing only a little "cuter". The expansion (the Zone) should be to show us the difference between what Elune did and what The Blue Smurf does.
    And leaving us with the Blue Smurf he does it by proxy. Elune did it because she had no other choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Literally lobotomized into being a peacenik.
    I feel the same. Now I wonder. Did Elune also send her to kill the Wardens in W3?

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Blizz is utterly horrible at writing the faction war or just basic faction conflict for that matter, this outcome might be for the best, considering the alternatives.
    Let's face it, they have hundreds of more satisfactory solutions if they used a minimum of logic.
    For example, the Horde simply signing a treaty that makes payment to the Kaldorei.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    ...
    But your logic is missing a detail. What is it that Elune Condemn them.
    That gives us two options
    1 could save the tree
    2 the Kaldorei don't normally go to SL.

    Thinking of the 2.
    So Tyrande has to put his Justice aside to save someone he doesn't know or care about. Bone Ardenweald is not something the Kaldorei should care about. They are once again Sacrificing themselves to save someone else who may not return the favor.

  9. #569
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post

    But your logic is missing a detail. What is it that Elune Condemn them.
    That gives us two options
    1 could save the tree
    2 the Kaldorei don't normally go to SL.

    Thinking of the 2.
    So Tyrande has to put his Justice aside to save someone he doesn't know or care about. Bone Ardenweald is not something the Kaldorei should care about. They are once again Sacrificing themselves to save someone else who may not return the favor.
    She condemned them because they went to the Maw instead of Ardenweald. She says that as a reaction to the WQ telling her that they went into the Maw.

  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    She condemned them because they went to the Maw instead of Ardenweald. She says that as a reaction to the WQ telling her that they went into the Maw.
    But if they normally go to SL. That would not be her fault. Because she shouldn't have interfered with the Flow of Souls in a Normal way.

    So they normally don't go to SL (or worse she let the tree burn)

  11. #571
    People who keep insisting "Elune should have saved them / stopped the tree burning etc" I think make a terrible argument.

    Its like how people say to Christians, "Why does God let suffering and pain exist in the world?". Like - Why didnt God stop 911 to prevent thousands of innocent people dying a horrible death? And their answer would include that its not Gods intent or purpose to micromanage the world - end all suffering/pain/death etc - and save people from themselves.

    Elune never had to save them. Thats not her role. Her role, from the scraps we're starting to get.. is probably a leader in the Pantheon of Life, who nurtures mortal souls then guides them to the Shadowlands/Realms of Death once its their time. Sylvanas (in a horrible, genocidal act) chose the time a fuck ton of Night Elf souls were going to die. Its NOT Elunes role to ''be judge and jury" as to whether that time is appropriate. If Sylvanas comes in and committs genocide - Elune does NOT have to be the God (with a capital G) who starts controlling the fate of everyone in the universe and saying 'no'.

    This is probably why Elune has been so elusive/apprehensive about interfering in general, for like 20 years now. Only stuff like the Ysera intervention. Theres probably a good reason she didnt just intervene willy-nilly whenever she wanted.
    Last edited by TyrianFC; 2021-07-29 at 01:11 PM.

  12. #572
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    But if they normally go to SL. That would not be her fault. Because she shouldn't have interfered with the Flow of Souls in a Normal way.

    So they normally don't go to SL (or worse she let the tree burn)
    We can only assume that Elune turns them into wisps or maybe she has her own realm where she takes them. From what we saw in BfA not all of the Night Elfs turn into wisps. We need more information on this to know what usually happens.

  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    We can only assume that Elune turns them into wisps or maybe she has her own realm where she takes them. From what we saw in BfA not all of the Night Elfs turn into wisps. We need more information on this to know what usually happens.
    Elune turning Elves into wisps is probably one of the reasons the Shadowlands (brokers) dislike her and find her untrustworthy. Elune is likely contravening (or bending the rules of) The Great Cycle - by not allowing the wisps to pass into the shadowlands, by keeping them in reality (aka realms of life) in what the brokers/shadowlands would see as a 'disgusting/unnatural' act.

  14. #574
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    We can only assume that Elune turns them into wisps or maybe she has her own realm where she takes them. From what we saw in BfA not all of the Night Elfs turn into wisps. We need more information on this to know what usually happens.
    So we are left with:
    A She kill them like Wisp
    B are in a sky that is not theirs

    The A is cruel. The B implies that Elune is forcing Tyrande to stop fighting for his people to fight this war that his people want. This whole Ardenweald thing is really "horrible."

    Elune didn't let them finish healing his wounds. Even his lives are in danger and she's already getting them into another war. It even seems that she forces them to not be able to continue their struggles.


    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    People who keep insisting "Elune should have saved them / stopped the tree burning etc" I think make a terrible argument.
    Unfortunately Elune is among those people.
    Last edited by geco; 2021-07-29 at 01:45 PM.

  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by Fewane View Post
    I feel the same. Whether it was Elune sacrificing the Night Elves into the cycle or just not keeping them as wisps and letting them go to her sister, this makes Elune feel much more god-like. Though I don't think of it as being less loyal: Elune is more like a farmer that decides to sacrifice her cattle to feed a starving relative. It doesn't mean she doesn't care for her cattle, just that the needs of the "gods" outweight the needs of the cattle/worshippers.
    True, either way I think it's an interesting and surprisingly clever twist. It also paints some questions over whether Elune knew Teldrassil would burn, or even if she played some part in making it happen.

    Regardless, I hope they really keep this thread going. No doubt, Night Elves are going to be FURIOUS if they discover Elune willingly sacrificed them, and it might cause an interesting rift in their society. And I'll admit, it also has me trying to remember whether or not Elune has any connection to the Emerald Dream or not, whether this revelation would affect Druids in their culture or not?

    Like I said, I hope Tyrande finds out and is understandably pissed about the situation. Given how cool she was as "Night Warrior", I'd almost hope she could serve as the basis for a third, new Demon Hunter spec (maybe something forcibly channeling Elune's wrath into ranged dot's, etc), but that's getting ahead of myself!

  16. #576
    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    Elune turning Elves into wisps is probably one of the reasons the Shadowlands (brokers) dislike her and find her untrustworthy. Elune is likely contravening (or bending the rules of) The Great Cycle - by not allowing the wisps to pass into the shadowlands, by keeping them in reality (aka realms of life) in what the brokers/shadowlands would see as a 'disgusting/unnatural' act.
    I don't think so, otherwise, all other death entities should hate her too. Also, they don't hate her... but her don't trust her KIND.
    The Brokers literally don't care. Fewer souls also mean more profit margin for them... selling souls.

    If some creatures don't die it does not really matter to the Shadowlands as long as most die. Keeping Night Elfs from the Shadowlands is just makes no real difference in cosmic scale.

    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    So we are left with:
    A I kill them like Wisp
    B are in a sky that is not theirs

    The A is cruel. The B implies that Elune is forcing Tyrande to stop fighting for his people to fight this war that his people want. This whole Ardenweald thing is really "horrible."

    Elune didn't let them finish healing his wounds. Even his lives are in danger and she's already getting them into another war. It even seems that she forces them to not be able to continue their struggles.

    Unfortunately Elune is among those people.
    I have a hard time understanding your post.
    What are we left with?
    Who is the "he" you are talking about?

  17. #577
    How do people not understand this?

    She's didn't kill the Night Elves she just let thier souls pass into the Shadowlands....

    Not sure why people think Elune is omnipotent, omnipresent or omniscient....

    Apperetnly he can't instantly know what's happening in the Shadowlands.

  18. #578
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post
    People who keep insisting "Elune should have saved them / stopped the tree burning etc" I think make a terrible argument.
    It's actually a decent argument -and what the elves expected. What is the point of worshipping a deity if you can't call in the odd favour when you're in a scrape.

    Personally, I wish they hadn't introduced Elune, I would have preferred she remain mysterious. This very much feels like the Wizard of Oz, pull back the screen and suddenly the Great Goddess disappears leaving behind a fuddled, clueless entity with little actual power. Look what Tyrande accomplished with the power of the Goddess... She killed Nathanos, OK she went toe to toe with Sylvie but at the crucial moment Elune "pulled the plug" or maybe she ran out of steam -we don't know.

    I think the story would have been stronger if there was a single line, Elune saying she regretted the deaths but CHOOSES not to interfere in the affairs of mortals. That doesn't neuter Elune, we think she had the power to intervene in someway but she's playing hard to get.

    The other thing that misses the mark is how the Goddess responded to the dying elves, her chosen people. If your only source for lore is the game, you don't know that she allowed the last few of them to fall asleep peacefully.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    How do people not understand this?

    She's didn't kill the Night Elves she just let thier souls pass into the Shadowlands....

    Not sure why people think Elune is omnipotent, omnipresent or omniscient....

    Apperetnly he can't instantly know what's happening in the Shadowlands.
    Because, throughout the lore, Elune has been portrayed as a powerful deity who defends her people.

  19. #579
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    .....
    Yes, sorry, English is not my language.

    What I'm going to. For me there are two options:
    1 Or Elune killed them as Wisp.
    2 O Elune didn't let life go beyond where they had to go and instead sent them to SL.

    If it becomes the second. So the Kaldorei don't really care about Ardenweald. They would be fighting again for a cause that is not theirs and when they needed help they were left alone.
    (I mean it would be like a second Suramar)

    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    She's didn't kill the Night Elves she just let thier souls pass into the Shadowlands....
    The point is that they are "functionally" the same. Since she tells you that she "condemns" them.
    I mean she did something she didn't have to do and this happened.

  20. #580
    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    It's actually a decent argument -and what the elves expected. What is the point of worshipping a deity if you can't call in the odd favour when you're in a scrape..
    Idk ask every religious person on Earth?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    It's actually a decent argument -and what the elves expected. What is the point of worshipping a deity if you can't call in the odd favour when you're in a scrape.

    Personally, I wish they hadn't introduced Elune, I would have preferred she remain mysterious. This very much feels like the Wizard of Oz, pull back the screen and suddenly the Great Goddess disappears leaving behind a fuddled, clueless entity with little actual power. Look what Tyrande accomplished with the power of the Goddess... She killed Nathanos, OK she went toe to toe with Sylvie but at the crucial moment Elune "pulled the plug" or maybe she ran out of steam -we don't know.

    I think the story would have been stronger if there was a single line, Elune saying she regretted the deaths but CHOOSES not to interfere in the affairs of mortals. That doesn't neuter Elune, we think she had the power to intervene in someway but she's playing hard to get.

    The other thing that misses the mark is how the Goddess responded to the dying elves, her chosen people. If your only source for lore is the game, you don't know that she allowed the last few of them to fall asleep peacefully.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Because, throughout the lore, Elune has been portrayed as a powerful deity who defends her people.
    Powerful isn't Omni-everything....

    We know now a limit her, she can't easily peer into the Shadowlands

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