I think leveling should be replaced.

[Velorium]

Different people enjoy different things I get that. When what you enjoy is so dull they monetize skipping it I feel you kind of have to yield to the fact it doesn't engage many people.

Isn't raiding monetized now? I'm pretty sure everything from M+ to Heroic Raiding gear can be purchased week 2 by anyone with fat pockets.

Because by the ratio of boosts/actual dungeons, it would seem that these don't engage very well either if people make a living off of selling the ability to not do them.

I think the issue is deeper with WoW's hands-off approach to creating these systems.

[Crimson Spears]

You are under the assumption that its an "either / or" scenario, which is not the case.

Giving new players a comprehensive introduction to their class and general mechanics has nothing to do with the leveling process.
Ofc you COULD tackle this during leveling, but there are other ways. However, in no way makes your idea to remove leveling and to replace it with a tutorial any form of sense.

Then give me your take on it. Just hearing "There are other ways" is rather vague. How would you incorporate those lesson?

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Isn't raiding monetized now? I'm pretty sure everything from M+ to Heroic Raiding gear can be purchased week 2 by anyone with fat pockets.

Because by the ratio of boosts/actual dungeons, it would seem that these don't engage very well either if people make a living off of selling the ability to not do them.

I think the issue is deeper with WoW's hands-off approach to creating these systems.

Well I admit you kind of have a point there.

[Femininity]

That is of course objectively incorrect.

Don't try the "objectively" thing with me.

borrowed power, repetitive content and no real advancement

This applies to leveling as well. Every expansion your combat ratings decrease as you level, hence the need for higher stats on higher level gear.

The original idea of a RPG (e.g. DND etc) was about character progression - right now that all happens during levelling, and literally stops at max level when you gain no more inherent power.

At level cap, you have continued statistical character progression through WoW's gearing system - it's disingenuous to pretend like it's not comparable. Just because you don't enjoy it, doesn't mean it's not character progression. The same is true for the Renown system. Like it or not, there's linear character progression beyond cap level.

Everything ... different classes, different activities, different zones - these days even completely different stories.

Maybe the first time through. After that, it's more of the same.

Compare that to a raid, where you beat your head against the same 10 bosses every week for a year.

You can choose to do that, yeah. Or you can clear it and move on. Maybe try another class or 10. There's as much or as little variety in endgame as you choose, following your leveling example.

[LedZeppelin]

so when a new expansion drops people just go to max level? this idea is so bad its funny. leveling slowly introduces the class to you

[Lochton]

With a series of challenges that give hard pass/fails on your class.

Something like a proving ground but tailored to each class specifically. Add to that a basic rotation guide and you could reduce leveling to roughly an hour and actually teach people the basics of the game at the same time.

Keep the world active for people who want to enjoy the story/transmog but offer a real tutorial to the game instead.

That, though, ruins the concept of an RPG. The main thing should be the journey of the story, secondary options we already have, which is a disjointed choice of zones/content you wish to do. Further along on that, would be dungeons and PvP but no, leveling should never be replaced in an RPG.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I think leveling was once really important in WoW. Now the game is pretty much a moba were you just plow end game to make the number bigger. So imo leveling is important in rpgs and mmorpgs but I am kind of on the fence weather WoW is really that anymore. Feels like a game that once was and now just has lagacy systems from its past that were very rpg/mmorpg.

[exsanguinate]

Remove the level system and replace it with a questline. If players want, they can just do all of the main quests and hit max level asap. It could be something like completing one of the four covenants, or whatever. Whatever the new leveling quest content ends up looking like.

Could work. Doing main quest to unlock the next chapter you need to move on.

[Baroclinic]

I don't think you understand what an RPG is. Please do not ever get a job in the games industry.

Funny, since the RPG aspect of leveling has been gone for a long time now. Thing was, characters leveled to get stronger, now they actually get weaker with each ding. Instead they level so that at max level they can begin to hope for equipment drops to get stronger.

I see no reason this could go away at this point. Not that I don't remember a VERY successful RPG long before WoW that did away with leveling and survived.

[Zaqwert]

So basically just turn it into a lobby game where you just select class/spec and press enter dungeon?

That boat sailed a decade ago my friend.

[Daedius]

Levelling is a core part of any RPG...

[Lady Atia]

As an alternative, there could be an option for people to make new characters closer to max level for those who don't like leveling.
But leveling in its entirety I think should remain for those who like doing it.

They could also make other ways to level, so that those who don't like leveling could maybe find another method that maybe they enjoy.
Activities that don't award xp, like crafting professions, could maybe award xp, as one example.

But the early levels aren't a problem - it's the last 10 that are annoying. Just give me the option for chromie time 'till vl 60 on my 3rd+ char, please ...

[Accendor]

Then give me your take on it. Just hearing "There are other ways" is rather vague. How would you incorporate those lesson?

It's not on me to prove that there are other ways, its on you to prove your suggestion is the best/most logical way.

Anyway, mandatory tutorials before entering any group content is fair enough. Proving grounds where a good first step, but they were there only to check IF you know how something worked and not to teach you about it in the first place.

[angrys13]

With a series of challenges that give hard pass/fails on your class.

Something like a proving ground but tailored to each class specifically. Add to that a basic rotation guide and you could reduce leveling to roughly an hour and actually teach people the basics of the game at the same time.

Keep the world active for people who want to enjoy the story/transmog but offer a real tutorial to the game instead.

I actually like the concept of the subject line and have been a fan of systems like Ultima Online from the past in this regard.

In that MMO, you leveled the skills you wanted your character to be proficient in (which took time similar to leveling a character) with a maximum allotment of skill points to use. In this regard, you still have investment into character development, but you could, at-will, change the direction of your character without having to level up a complete new toon. EG: Swordsmanship, Magery, Cooking, Blacksmithing were all core skills you could level up out of your skill point pool. As you leveled, you gain stat points to help your character out (for hitpoints, stamina, mana). I dunno, I liked it a lot more than the generic leveling systems, and it felt like a better system to me. I'm sure it has flaws, as well, but it was one of my favorites.

[Lady Atia]

It would probably feel bad for players if leveling in old content was ever faster than new content. Imagine a new expac comes out and all the hardcore players feel forced to skip new story just to hit cap faster to work on pre-raid BiS.

Not to say Chromie Time up to cap shouldn't be there, just that IF it was done, they'd have to specifically be careful that leveling in new expacs is fastest or Chromie Time up to cap disabled during first week so that people don't just rush with old routes and miss out on new content just to be optimal.

Of course that would be an alt only option.

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I actually like the concept of the subject line and have been a fan of systems like Ultima Online from the past in this regard.

In that MMO, you leveled the skills you wanted your character to be proficient in (which took time similar to leveling a character) with a maximum allotment of skill points to use. In this regard, you still have investment into character development, but you could, at-will, change the direction of your character without having to level up a complete new toon. EG: Swordsmanship, Magery, Cooking, Blacksmithing were all core skills you could level up out of your skill point pool. As you leveled, you gain stat points to help your character out (for hitpoints, stamina, mana). I dunno, I liked it a lot more than the generic leveling systems, and it felt like a better system to me. I'm sure it has flaws, as well, but it was one of my favorites.

So basically like Sword Art Online?

[Temp name]

What they should do is make leveling interesting again. Not entirely sure how to do that, but removing it would basically kill the RPG aspect of the game

[Kehego]

remember how fun proving grounds were when they were mandatory?

And while i liked the idea, do you really think the unwashed masses would actually enjoy having to learn to play? Lmao

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Change the fundamental structure of WoW so levelling is no longer an afterthought speedbump on the way to the actual game (raiding), and then we'll talk.

[anon5123]

Considering that retail isn't really an RPG anymore, and Blizzard literally sells level boosts to skip 90% of the leveling process, yeah, go ahead and remove leveling so that Blizz can push the whole "nothing matters except max level" angle even harder.

Change the fundamental structure of WoW so levelling is no longer an afterthought speedbump on the way to the actual game (raiding), and then we'll talk.

It already is like that. Leveling is mind-blowingly fast and you can even buy a boost to skip 90% of it and go straight to endgame content.

What they should do is make leveling interesting again.

Take notes from vanilla, where leveling and questing is an actual adventure instead of a guided tour where the game holds your hand the entire time.

Modern questing is just a completely on-rails experience that follows the same loop forever:

1. Grab some quests
2. Do the quest objectives that are 5 feet away from the questgiver
3. Turn them in
4. Get a breadcrumb quest that leads you to the next quest hub
5. Repeat steps 1-4 until you're max level

Whereas in vanilla, quests are spread out all over the world and you have to actually explore and find them, most of the time. And lots of quests have objectives that are far away from the questgiver, some quests having objectives that are on the other fuckin' side of the world.

Yeah, there are quest hubs, but nowhere near as many as retail, and lots of quests are found outside of the quest hubs. I'd say it's more 50% are from quest hubs and 50% are just found in random places out in the world, whereas in retail, 100% of quests are from quest hubs.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

It already is like that. Leveling is mind-blowingly fast and you can even buy a boost to skip 90% of it and go straight to endgame content.

At this point, levelling should be removed. When you create a new character, you should get a short 5 minute tutorial on how to play your class, and then you should start at 60 and be able to jump straight into doing your chores and raiding.

[Ehrenpanzer]

With a series of challenges that give hard pass/fails on your class.

Something like a proving ground but tailored to each class specifically. Add to that a basic rotation guide and you could reduce leveling to roughly an hour and actually teach people the basics of the game at the same time.

Keep the world active for people who want to enjoy the story/transmog but offer a real tutorial to the game instead.

They had that.. was called "Proving Grounds" and you needed to complete the most basic level to que for heroics. Naturally the mouthbreathing crayon eaters of the world threw a shit fit about it because they couldn't be carried by other people anymore and it got removed to an optional thing for chieve points.