Rage quitters in m+ deserve a massive penalty

[T-34]

lets look at the situation, person have 95% completition rate in your system
how the HELL would you know if he left those dungeons bcs he is idiot, or bcs he wasnt willing to carry idiots?
the system only tells you he left, not if there actualy was good reason behind it...
not to mention, morons who can barely play their class who invite good players to carry them would RARELY left first, so person having high completition rate might be dead weight as much as asset, that % system tells you absolutely nothing about that...

Imagine if all that creativity and energy spent on designing systems/schemes to force/trick better players to carry them would be spent on making one-self a better player and/or becoming better at selecting people to play with instead....

[Rageonit]

lets look at the situation, person have 95% completition rate in your system
how the HELL would you know if he left those dungeons bcs he is idiot, or bcs he wasnt willing to carry idiots?
the system only tells you he left, not if there actualy was good reason behind it...
not to mention, morons who can barely play their class who invite good players to carry them would RARELY left first, so person having high completition rate might be dead weight as much as asset, that % system tells you absolutely nothing about that...

95% would be an amazing score, I'd invite him in a heartbeat (provided he could also do his job, of course).
Why should you know the reasons he left, anyway? We all play the same game and in the long run, we all encounter the same problems. An average is all you need to know, really. An average means: "This guys doesn't leave more runs than most of the players I play with". So he's probably a nice chap and won't drop a key just to mess with you (because a person like that would have an above average leaver %). Why do you need to know more?

[Lolites]

Oh, and one more thing. The onus is on you to check who you group with. If you sign blindly to any key, you will, on average, get more bad runs, true - but you are partly to blame. Do your research - doesn't take much time - and granted, you will have more succesful runs.
That's why information is important. Warcraftlogs, raider.io - make use of it. If they ever implement this leaver % thing (doubtful) and you invite a guy with above average % - who will be to blame if he scrams?

right, so i should spend hours inspecting people on websites (most of which can be misleading as hell or incomplete) so i dont spend hours in dungeon... such a great fun...

and if i invite someone with 99% completition, who is manchild who screams and leave after first wipe which HE caused, whos fault is that?
bcs the %completition system tells you ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOTHING about his abilities, only thing that it tells you he have more patience than people he run with. bcs they left before him

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95% would be an amazing score, I'd invite him in a heartbeat (provided he could also do his job, of course).
Why should you know the reasons he left, anyway? We all play the same game and in the long run, we all encounter the same problems. An average is all you need to know, really. An average means: "This guys doesn't leave more runs than most of the players I play with". So he's probably a nice chap and won't drop a key just to mess with you (because a person like that would have an above average leaver %). Why do you need to know more?

so imbecile with high rio and great gear which he get via boosts or help from guildmates who never left dungeon first but was nothing but a deadweight in anything above normal dungeon would in your system look great...
do you still not see how absolutely faulty and meaningless the system based on % dungeon completed would be?

[delus]

The problem with M+ is the penalty of a keystone downgrade. Maybe if you could pull in people mid timer, it would mitigate the damage one player could do to the entire group.

[Rageonit]

right, so i should spend hours inspecting people on websites (most of which can be misleading as hell or incomplete) so i dont spend hours in dungeon... such a great fun...

Hours? Talk about exaggeration... Or do you still play on a dial-up modem? Give me your character name & realm and I will need about two minutes to know if I want you in my group.

and if i invite someone with 99% completition, who is manchild who screams and leave after first wipe which HE caused, whos fault is that?
bcs the %completition system tells you ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOTHING about his abilities, only thing that it tells you he have more patience than people he run with. bcs they left before him

How would a guy like that achieve a 99% completion rate? It doesn't make sence. If he's a dick, he'd get voted out of the run and it would be him getting leaver %, not you. You need to look at the system in its entirety, not only small parts of it.

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so imbecile with high rio and great gear which he get via boosts or help from guildmates who never left dungeon first but was nothing but a deadweight in anything above normal dungeon would in your system look great...
do you still not see how absolutely faulty and meaningless the system based on % dungeon completed would be?

Clearly, you don't understand how averages work. That one guy doesn't matter, cause he's a speck of dust in the entire system. Now, if the majority of players were like that, we'd have a problem (and a much bigger one than the one we're discussing). Don't get tangled up in meaningless examples; they hardly matter for the whole picture.

[Nachtigal]

Would you take your alt over your main?

Yes, both are qualified. I'm not queueing into a 15 for a carry. I'm queueing to get a dungeon or two done for my vault before reset. I have friends and a guild that I can utilize to get my characters to where they're able to hold their own in a 15. I cannot rely on my friends to be there for all of my alts. If my alt wasn't capable of the dungeon, I simply wouldn't queue. If someone messages me and tells me, "hey, this is my alt, you can see my main's io score, I promise I can do this" I'd take the chance on them. If I couldn't take them because my comp needed a lust for example, I'd tell them "Hey man I'm sorry, I'd take you, but we need a lust. Good luck finding another group." And if the situation changed I'd hit em back up and see if they're free. No BS.

[Rageonit]

Yes, both are qualified. I'm not queueing into a 15 for a carry. I'm queueing to get a dungeon or two done for my vault before reset. I have friends and a guild that I can utilize to get my characters to where they're able to hold their own in a 15. I cannot rely on my friends to be there for all of my alts. If my alt wasn't capable of the dungeon, I simply wouldn't queue. If someone messages me and tells me, "hey, this is my alt, you can see my main's io score, I promise I can do this" I'd take the chance on them. If I couldn't take them because my comp needed a lust for example, I'd tell them "Hey man I'm sorry, I'd take you, but we need a lust. Good luck finding another group." And if the situation changed I'd hit em back up and see if they're free. No BS.

Man, you're the nicest guy on the planet.
Except when you aren't.

[Lolites]

Hours? Talk about exaggeration... Or do you still play on a dial-up modem? Give me your character name & realm and I will need about two minutes to know if I want you in my group.

and if you invite the very first people who apply to the group it sure takes minutes... if you go for high key and have to check 20+ people it will take fuckload of time

How would a guy like that achieve a 99% completion rate? It doesn't make sence. If he's a dick, he'd get voted out of the run and it would be him getting leaver %, not you. You need to look at the system in its entirety, not only small parts of it.

yeah, that part is even worse, premades would get you in, kick you before last boss, and you would get punished by fucking up your % score...
such an amazing system...
and how would idiot get high completition rate? well, run 100 m+ with guildmates, buy few boosts and you can fuck with random people who invite you to pug by leaving right at start... such a great potential for abuse and trolling...

Clearly, you don't understand how averages work.

as an accountant with state exams from probability, statistics, and other similar subjects, im pretty sure i know more about them than you...
bcs aparently you dont understand the difference between theory and reality...

sure, on average if large amount of people run m+ for majority it will be "average", and for them this system might as well not exist
for some people, they will have MUCH BETTER results than they deserve, bcs they will meet people wiling to rather slog through for hours than leave
and other people will be ABSOLUTELY FUCKED, bcs they will meet only morons...

so outcome of this %score for some people will have fuck all with their abilities, and more to do with their LUCK, randomnes if you want... clear sign of EXTREMELY unfair system...

now, you can "avoid that" by checking logs right? but, logs are incomplete as hell, and you can check them NOW, so what would the % system bring that would be so helpful we wouldnt mind that some people will be completely fucked over by it?
to me it seems the system would fuck some people over, make other look better than they are, and bring ABSOLUTELY no advantage that cant already be present with system we have now...

[Rageonit]

and if you invite the very first people who apply to the group it sure takes minutes... if you go for high key and have to check 20+ people it will take fuckload of time

More than failing the key, upgrading it back to 20 and inviting again? I mean, it's your key, do whatever suits you... I know what I would do.

yeah, that part is even worse, premades would get you in, kick you before last boss, and you would get punished by fucking up your % score...
such an amazing system...

Sure, because I get premades all day long and we always fail just before last boss, so they can kick me. I mean...
Yeah, but no. If you get a premade, you are prolly timing it. That's the reality of the situation. Or maybe you're not, if you are the weak link (that can happen too). And the whole idea of doing 100+ runs with guildies and buying boosts just to troll randoms is just... In what world? If I can do 100 runs with my guildies, why would I ever think about pugging? Most people who PUG, do it because they CAN'T get guild groups going. And you make up this "idiot" going through chores just to be able to sign up with a nice score to prove that it'd be a bad system? How many of them exist in reality? So yeah, lets scrap the idea, because somewhere in the world there's this basement guy paying real money to troll us. Legit.

[Nachtigal]

Man, you're the nicest guy on the planet.
Except when you aren't.

I give everybody a chance. And I've said many times before, it just gets drowned out in all the BS, I only do this to actually toxic people. Meaning I'm not going to find someone and ruin their key for simply telling me no. It's the actually toxic *written* response to my application when I whisper the leader trying to inform them that I'm not just some random noob looking for a carry. I know my class, I know the dungeons (indicated by my mains io score). I just don't have it on my alt, I have a couple alts I've geared through my guilds community raid nights without stepping into M+.

[Rageonit]

I give everybody a chance.

Yes, and if they don't take it, you bring down the punishment.
You almost had me with the "It's them being toxic" crap, but then I've realised that apart from the toxic leader, there are three other people in the run.

[Alexeht]

m+ deserve being completely removed from the game

[m4xc4v413r4]

I always love to see when the person crying about abusive behavior has abusive behavior plastered all over his comments and threads he creates. No wonder you're banned. If the rules you ask for on your multiple threads came into existence you would be the first one out the door mate...

[Nachtigal]

Yes, and if they don't take it, you bring down the punishment.
You almost had me with the "It's them being toxic" crap, but then I've realised that apart from the toxic leader, there are three other people in the run.

Well, I wasn't really trying to sway you one way or the other. Truth be told, I was going to edit the post and acknowledge the fact there's three other people, but I figured you'd probably already started the process of reading and responding so I figured I'd wait. Also, that's not what I meant there. I specifically meant when I'm the group leader, I'll give anyone a chance. Since we're getting specific I might as well say, that I'm only extending that chance to those that would take the time to reach out to me and let me know that it's not what it looks like.

It's different when I'm applying in that very same manner and they're toxic to me. I give them no chances. For the other three, sometimes it sucks for them that they chose to group up with a toxic group lead. Sometimes they're friends/guildies with the leader, and I feel better about it. But if they're not, it's just not enough to dissuade me outright. It's no different really than everyone jumping off Blizzard games because of the lawsuit. Lots of people weren't involved with it, but they're surely going to be dragged through the mud with it. That's just the way I see it.

[Coals]

I think a big thing that would reduce toxicity is simply allowing players to choose what level they want to run a dungeon at rather then the key system.

Sure people would cheese the weekly chest with four hour runs using heroism but to be brutally frank what is the issue with that? We are at the point where hundreds ( not exaggerating as I'm part of the community a single community mind you there are more) of people buying boosts making the idea of gear being earned through skillful play as being suspect.

Would it really hurt to just let people try, fail, and improve on their own time with groups that expect that rather then trying to make a difficulty setting into a resource?

[thunderdragon2]

was just in a halls of atonement 12 not my key 3 shammies (inc me) a mage and a dh tank, mage died alot no big, killed 2nd boss a bit messy but no deaths the mage died to the fire tormentor after than then the dh proceeds to pull the next pack dies then leaves and we still had 8 mins left....ppl like this need a sever penalty for doing this either that or blizzard and mmoc forums need to start allowing naming and shaming as ppl will keep doing this until they are know.

ppl need to be stopped form wasting upwards of 20 minuets of 4 other ppls time.

[Naville]

If someone messages me and tells me, "hey, this is my alt, you can see my main's io score, I promise I can do this" I'd take the chance on them.

If you had tried this, you would know that doesn't work.

Had that DH who /w me "take me, I do big DPS". That was just for an AD +15 with some well-geared friends so I let that guy prove himself... He ended up doing less DPS than me (the tank).

People try anything they can to get into groups. The only think you can trust is XP for mid-range keys (till 16-17) and for higher keys, you even have to do some screening on raider.io website to see if applicants' gear and talents fit with their spec.

[[KJ]]

It is something I would like to be addressed, more so in the lower keys, I can imagine there is a lot more casual at lower keys and a lot more who just get to the point of I cba faster.

People generally get less toxic with harder content and pugs are the best way to make friends and the current environment helps breed negativity. I don’t know if a punishment is the way forward tho

I would like to increase the item level of lower keys, I think it would draw better players into the mix with people progressing and sharing that wealth of knowledge would be better overall

I didn’t agree with making m+ less rewarding without addressing this

[Nachtigal]

If you had tried this, you would know that doesn't work.

Had that DH who /w me "take me, I do big DPS". That was just for an AD +15 with some well-geared friends so I let that guy prove himself... He ended up doing less DPS than me (the tank).

People try anything they can to get into groups. The only think you can trust is XP for mid-range keys (till 16-17) and for higher keys, you even have to do some screening on raider.io website to see if applicants' gear and talents fit with their spec.

I have done this. Sometimes you win some, sometimes you lose some. I'm not afraid to take a chance on people. It's a 15. If it goes south, clear it for the vault and be done, I don't care about my keys. That doesn't make me less capable of clearing somebody else's key though. I get my KSM, get my vault runs done for the week, and I'm done. I have no interest in pushing the competitive scene. If you decline me with respect while treating me like a human when I respectfully make an attempt to verify myself, we won't have issues.

So much fear from people about wasting their time, etc, etc.. If your time is so important and valuable that you have to treat others poorly, and you feel as though you cannot afford to waste it, then why are you even playing video games at all?

[Naville]

So much fear from people about wasting their time, etc, etc.. If your time is so important and valuable that you have to treat others poorly, and you feel as though you cannot afford to waste it, then why are you even playing video games at all?

I have a lot of time to run keys, but not all players have.

When making your own group, you don't want to waste the time of your fellow gamers. So if your mates are in a rush, you avoid to invite a low-geared alt, even with a good XP - that's why you won't get that much invites even with a 2400+ score main.

Some other groups are advertised as "alts welcome", or you can directly see that group is listed by an alt with a good XP on their main, with the raider.io addon, even if it's not explicitely advertised.