Parasitic systems drive spreadsheet design is the problem, agree or disagree?

[Magical Mudcrab]

They were not good, I wholly agree. I cant understand why legion is so thoroughly praised. It did some things well, and other things got better at the end of the expansion but a lot systems were down right bad.

Gameplay was a lot better, which is paired with the novelty of some of the systems (i.e.: change from Challenge Modes to M+, evolution of Apexis Dailies to World Quests, etc.). Since then most classes/specs have not received adequate redesigns since being gutted post Legion (i.e.: Fire mage is one of the most notable) and systems that had been iteratively developed have stagnated and received little to no refinement. This is to say that Legion is remembered fondly because even though it had some fundamental problems it still delivered refinements and improvements upon previous content and addressed issues with them.

[LedZeppelin]

what exactly is the parasitic system and what do you mean by spreadsheet design?

[arkanon]

what exactly is the parasitic system and what do you mean by spreadsheet design?

I believe in this context the systems in question are ones that encourage / force repetitive gameplay, and spreadsheet design would be systems which encourage / force players to troll through spreadsheets / sims to discover what should be used, and in what combination.

Many people believe the game was better when it was far simpler - when upgrades were very obvious at a glance, and the gearing / progression systems were much simpler and more linear.

[Couchpotato2013]

Only parasitic system using this boogieman definition would have been the corruption vendor using echoes of nyalotha (which were previously used for essences). And who’s existence was entirely propped up by stringing players along over a 28 day period (each batch lasting for 3.5 days there being 8 batches). And then it being removed entirely after 147 days. With nothing more than to just make numbers go BRRR.

Heart of azeroth isn’t parasitic because it is still entirely functional in the game unlike artifacts and it was the foundation for everything else. Azerite traits that needed higher neck level if you got a higher ilvl piece are parasitic because they added nothing other than to fuel you to think you needed to play more. The neck itself was nothing

But an Englishman saying buzzwords to tickle your trigger words must make things true.

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No offense to you, but I'm glad more games have come out and proved this philosophy is entirely incorrect and just an excuse for easier money / stubborn practices.

That’s only because those games haven’t been trodden to death and refined in their consumption.

Look at classic and tbc. Exhausted to the bone and not because the content was trivial or blizz designing upperbounds of consumption around hours/week far lower than current wow (excluding the scheme to keep people hooked). I guarantee you blizz back then just did not think of players being paid to play professionally or be on welfare for years just to play 16-20 hours a day. Devs probably only thought people would be able to play at most 40-60 hours.

But back to the main point, excluding the above, the reason they got trodden into the ground was because of the refinement in consumption of the simplicity of systems.

Give these newer games time to ferment and track system loops that are equivalent between games and watch players blow through them and want more complexity thinking that will help lengthen time played.

WoW 2 advocates are the lowest brow proponents. Literally wanting a throw a baby out with the bathwater approach with vague intentions and goals or reasons for why everything should be so drastically changed. And then completely forgetting that the team that led things down the path they hate would be the team to work on WoW 2.

But then why not fire the old team?

Kek dumb people enjoy not having anything for long time, by then the IP will be as terrible/dead as starcraft is and arguably what people wished it was between diablo immortal and d4 announcements.

Also parasitic systems somehow requiring less work than just making one thing right and iteratively working on it. Ever worked with something at work or on your car that regularly broke? Tell me that didn’t make you sink more money and time into managing that thing than just replacing the whole assembly or designing a better work flow to circumvent the possibly of having that issue crop up again.
Again something tells me people complaining about this haven’t worked at all in their life. Just sitting at their keyboard for years doing nothing. Not trying to say their concerns are first world but rather delusional and having no basis/solid frame of reference.

[minteK917]

Parasitic system is simpler then that. Its when a game system adds nothing to the game and simply increase the requirement of things to manage for no reason. Stuff like Corruption, Titan forged, soul ash, etc. They dont really provide anything beside slowing you down trying to play the actual game. Another example was in legions farming those tokens to get extra rolls for gear in raid. Theres no need for that kind of shit, its just one more shit to grind that added nothing to the game. Not only that, its a parasitic system added to compensated for the other parasitic system called titan forged.

The game needs content, not systems. People will grind for the things they want, mounts, transmog, gear, titles. You dont need to add sub system grinds to play the grind. Its a fake idea blizzard implanted in its player base that if you dont have something to grind every day, PEOPLE WONT LOG ON, GAME WILL DIE. No game was at its biggest when none of these things even existed. WE SAT IN FRONT OF ORGRIMMAR AND DUELED, chatted at the mailbox with all the trolls in general. Its an MMO, its one step away from being VR chat when its alive.

[Myradin]

Many people believe the game was better when it was far simpler - when upgrades were very obvious at a glance, and the gearing / progression systems were much simpler and more linear.

You mean back when we had hit/expertise/(sometimes)haste/armor pen/defense caps? Sometimes resist fights needing you to balance resist with that? With gems taking up itemization? Or when some raids had weapons that had special procs instead of secondary stats? Or was it when we had reforge that literally ran some spreadsheets to determine how to math your gear the best?

How is the current system not simple and linear? You do content, you get anime and progress towards weekly vault.

[minteK917]

You mean back when we had hit/expertise/(sometimes)haste/armor pen/defense caps? Sometimes resist fights needing you to balance resist with that? With gems taking up itemization? Or when some raids had weapons that had special procs instead of secondary stats? Or was it when we had reforge that literally ran some spreadsheets to determine how to math your gear the best?

How is the current system not simple and linear? You do content, you get anime and progress towards weekly vault.

No they dont mean simpler that way, they mean simpler as in. You go fight the monsters in the dungeons and they drop the gear you want sometimes or they give you an item to get gear. Not 5 different system to get side grades of power from all sides with systems that do nothing but artificially increase the length of time you play, but with no actual content.

[Couchpotato2013]

Another example was in legions farming those tokens to get extra rolls for gear in raid. Theres no need for that kind of shit, its just one more shit to grind that added nothing to the game.

Bonus rolls had been in since MoP. And they were trivial as hell to get. So easy to get your 3 for the week even on multiple characters. Why? Cause world quests were extremely easy to do and not slowed down like BFA or turned into molasses like SL.

[Paperfox]

what exactly is the parasitic system and what do you mean by spreadsheet design?

Please watch this video by Josh Strife Hayes on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwHJqXKwRKM

[Couchpotato2013]

No they dont mean simpler that way, they mean simpler as in. You go fight the monsters in the dungeons and they drop the gear you want sometimes or they give you an item to get gear. Not 5 different system to get side grades of power from all sides with systems that do nothing but artificially increase the length of time you play, but with no actual content.

So what you’re saying is that people want thumbs or down emojis on their gear cause they can’t be bothered to figure it out if the item is good because it has “too many variables” to figure out if it is good.

We had that and blizz even doubled down on it with primary stat and people are complaining.

If there is anything people should be complaining about it is the purposeful withholding of quality of life adjustments in obviously broken or incomplete systems until higher tier players finish X amount of progression.

Easy examples being account-wide essences in 8.3 and spec-specific conduit upgrades coming this reset in 9.1 on the days when horde hall of fame closed for nyalotha and sanctum of domination respectively.

That change recently for conduits is something is what we asked in beta, and blizz has purposely withheld it just to slow dow upper tier players. That is dog**** game design and has nothing to parasitism, it’s just hating your players in order to spite the topend’s somehow free ability to play longer than engagement loops can be programmed without arbitrary/obvious broken loops.

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Please watch this video by Josh Strife Hayes on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwHJqXKwRKM

And in that video he can’t even cement the definition.

Yes blizz is dog**** and deserves all the crap and a game close to being organ harvested to tencent. But the utilization of buzzwords and boogieman language is not accurate and reflects an easily identifiable way to spot someone taking only a quick glance/playtime with such systems.

[arkanon]

No they dont mean simpler that way, they mean simpler as in. You go fight the monsters in the dungeons and they drop the gear you want sometimes or they give you an item to get gear. Not 5 different system to get side grades of power from all sides with systems that do nothing but artificially increase the length of time you play, but with no actual content.

This - the person you quoted also neglected to mention that in the earlier days, it was 1 difficulty, not 4. So you did your raid / dungeon, and if you got the item, SWEET! if not, you go back and try again. But again, its not just about the core gear - its all the additional systems designed to encourage repeating / spamming the same content endlessly for either currency or just to "keep up".

Previously, if i took a break for a few months then came back, i could dust my character off, and get into some dungeons or w/e, and get some gear then head into the newest content - it still took time, but it always felt productive and meaningful. Now you need to catch up all the various systems as well as the gear, and much of that is just spamming WQ daily / repeating the same mindless content.

[arandomuser]

Why do you think Legion's systems were good? The world quests and the artifact grinds and the RNGendaries weren't fun.

sub numbers say otherwise, its an mmo
core part of mmo is play the game
the more you play= the stronger your character gets
or is your weeb game in your profile pic have no character progression just weeb story?

[arkanon]

So what you’re saying is...

This is like flying a flag saying "im about to completely misrepresent what the person said and put words in their mouth". You are free to disagree with what people are complaining about, but be clear – this IS what people are complaining about.

[Echo of Soul]

You mean back when we had hit/expertise/(sometimes)haste/armor pen/defense caps? Sometimes resist fights needing you to balance resist with that? With gems taking up itemization? Or when some raids had weapons that had special procs instead of secondary stats? Or was it when we had reforge that literally ran some spreadsheets to determine how to math your gear the best?

How is the current system not simple and linear? You do content, you get anime and progress towards weekly vault.

Because every example you provided are part of the same system. A single deep and robust system is better than 20 simple ones that are constantly being added and removed.

A single complex system gives you a chance to focus and learn and it will be valuable knowledge forever. Many small temporary systems can cause sensory overload even if every individual system is shallow, it will also lead to you constantly having to relearn new things and cause old knowledge to be useless which can lead to a "what's the point?" attitude.

[arkanon]

sub numbers say otherwise, its an mmo

Please, enlighten us with your insider knowledge of the sub count!

A core part of ANY game is playing the game. The more you play does NOT need to directly relate to player power, and never really has, until recently. Earlier on it was completing challening content, not how many times you could handle spamming easy content.

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Because every example you provided are part of the same system. A single deep and robust system is better than 20 simple ones that are constantly being added and removed.

A single complex system gives you a chance to focus and learn and it will be valuable knowledge forever. Many small temporary systems can cause sensory overload even if every individual system is shallow, it will also lead to you constantly having to relearn new things and cause old knowledge to be useless which can lead to a "what's the point?" attitude.

Its not JUST that, but by having one system which remained mostly unchanged for the better part of a decade, people understood it and learned it (as you said) while now they introduce new systems every expansion, and typically make fundamental changes mid expansion as well, meaning SOME people feel like they are constantly learning a new system, only to have it removed / changed mid expansion.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

sub numbers say otherwise, its an mmo
core part of mmo is play the game
the more you play= the stronger your character gets
or is your weeb game in your profile pic have no character progression just weeb story?

I mainly played WoW for the questing content. First time I unsubbed was during WoD when I finished leveling... and there wasn't any content left to do besides farming a raid over and over again. There were no reputation storylines, no endgame zone storyline, no nothing. Just a heavily timegated Khadgar questline. Came back during Legion. It had a little more questing content than WoD but this time many of the storylines were abysmal. Same with BFA. The only gameplay during this time I really enjoyed was the Mage Tower.

I don't play any game for the grind. Grind is usually what kills my interest in a game.

[Echo of Soul]

Previously, if i took a break for a few months then came back, i could dust my character off, and get into some dungeons or w/e, and get some gear then head into the newest content - it still took time, but it always felt productive and meaningful. Now you need to catch up all the various systems as well as the gear, and much of that is just spamming WQ daily / repeating the same mindless content.

Because the game hasn't completely changed while you were away. If you have to relearn huge chunks of the game or even your class inside of an expansion you have a clear design problem. BfA was probably the worst offender in this regard with massive changes to existing systems and new ones being added on a patch by patch basis.

[Mysterymask]

You know what amazes me about this thread/forum

Y'all simply can't say "I don't like the game anymore so I'll stop playing".

No you gotta come up with bullshit buzzwords like "Borrowed Power" and "Parasitic systems" and "Spreadsheet Designs"

Guaranteed most of the people who quit the game barely have 2 shits about either of those and just said the first thing I said

"I don't like the game anymore so I won't play"

[Couchpotato2013]

This is like flying a flag saying "im about to completely misrepresent what the person said and put words in their mouth". You are free to disagree with what people are complaining about, but be clear – this IS what people are complaining about.

Someone gave an example of pre-WoD gear

And another person said that was still wrong.

There are four extreme paradigms on how design gear.

1. Bake all the things that make gear gear into the gear itself
2. Offload absolutely everything that makes gear into systems/character themselves, thus making the gear completely cosmetic. You can still gain power in this system but progression is entirely outside the gear
3. Strip out everything from gear and have it mean nothing. It is all cosmetic. There is no external system to give power.
4. Bake everything into gear but break it down so completely that progression is quantifiable entirely with just one value, regardless of circumstances.

Very eager to hear a rebuttal of those 4 ways.

[PenguinChan]

~snip~

What you're talking about is very much WoW centric. Other MMORPGs are doing just fine over time, whether they have a huge population or not is regardless of the point of who they appeal to. This isn't exclusive to MMOs obviously - other games in different genres are hugely popular, and updates continue to pump out either iterating the process or revamping some / all of it. Not all games are like this, of course. Some go the way of WoW, or the way of Rift / EQ2 and fail because of it.

WoW simply has this issue due to the design philosophy. They're designing a game to take more of your time away, and have you come back. Instead of making a game that is enjoyable and all the systems on top of it compliment the time spent instead of feeling like a forced design choice. You can have a game where you play it during a new patch, get all the content you want out of it in 1 - 2 weeks and then wait until the next major patch / expansion.

There is nothing inherently WRONG with systems which reward you for time devoted of course. It's just the method of doing so is detrimental to being fun or parasitic. Destiny 2 (At least, for the last time I played and awhile) has this very same issue - where they force you through content (Instead of being optional) to progress. Sure, you COULD just do the one daily and slowly level up your light level and such but are you REALLY going to do just that? It's the same thing in WoW, being funneled into things shouldn't feel like a chore - it should feel like an open ended choice that isn't restrictive.