I had an idea last night while raiding with friends.

[Myokony]

Lets be honest here - that is nothing at all like what the person said - and putting it in quotations doesnt change that.

If they think that doing more than just looting some items to get your ilvl is chores and an effort than yes, thats exactly what they said. People like them want a wod, raidlog and be done. Oh look i have soo many alts arent i good.

[kranur]

Why bother making new dungeons at all?

[Malania]

The problem is not gearing an alt, the problem are all the chores to do. Gearing was never an issue in WoW. They just created too many sub-systems of power that you have to feed time into, that's why we have this shitty alt-unfriendly situation where nobody wants to play more than 1 character..

Actually gearing for me became an issue when they added mythic. It's what made me quit raiding and WoW at WoD launch.

I will be fair and say burnout had kicked in anyway as I had been raiding since TBC every week without cancelling my sub. Then WoD launch and the system goes from normal dungs and heroic dungs then to normal raiding to heroic raiding up to normal, heroic, mythic, M+, normal raiding, heroic raiding, mythic raiding with the extra LFR added to be competitive.

You were capable of doing normal raids in heroic dungeon gear on MoP. There wasn't an endless fucking list of jobs to do before you could even look at a raid and suddenly I now have mythic dungeons and normal raids with optional LFR just to go back to heroic raids of which any decently focussed guild is going to expect you to do to reach the best possible gear so they know you'd taking it serious to do what was standard raid content for like 10 years before.

I just saw this never ending list of hoops to jump through and I just had a mental sigh and could not be arsed any longer. When I looked back in after WoD with a break and feeling refreshed they had introduced shit like AP and Azerite gear and necks.

The sheer fucking work they make you put in now... Every guild who raids mythic should get sponsorships as far as I'm concerned.

[potis]

You were capable of doing normal raids in heroic dungeon gear on MoP. There wasn't an endless fucking list of jobs to do before you could even look at a raid and suddenly I now have mythic dungeons and normal raids with optional LFR just to go back to heroic raids of which any decently focussed guild is going to expect you to do to reach the best possible gear so they know you'd taking it serious to do what was standard raid content for like 10 years before.

This makes no sense, the decent players are literally doing exactly that, the extra difficulties arent there if you were decent enough, they are there for everyone else that simply cant.

Again, each guild is different and requirements of delusional bad players that want to rush content and raid 5 times a week will always exist.

If you want to raid Mythic at a slower pace, you can change guilds..

Are you people seriously gonna whine about the ~1hr weekly requirement to get your renown and averagely 45m-1hr for your Choreghast (Which if you dont care after the BiS legendary you can stop doing), and the 30minute +15 run for your vault? So, suddenly 2hr weekly requirement is somehow insane Mythic raiding requirements?

I seriously dont get the complains of the majority of this forum, this is the most raid logging expansion of the last 3, and its amazing for people like me, there is nothing i hated more than logging on every day, to do pointless shity WQs to not stay behind on AP in both of the 2 previous shitty expansions, not because my raid asked me, i am the raid literally and we only casually clear HC and slack, because i enjoy my character being up to par.

[Malania]

This makes no sense, the decent players are literally doing exactly that, the extra difficulties arent there if you were decent enough, they are there for everyone else that simply cant.

Again, each guild is different and requirements of delusional bad players that want to rush content and raid 5 times a week will always exist.

If you want to raid Mythic at a slower pace, you can change guilds..

Are you people seriously gonna whine about the ~1hr weekly requirement to get your renown and averagely 45m-1hr for your Choreghast (Which if you dont care after the BiS legendary you can stop doing), and the 30minute +15 run for your vault? So, suddenly 2hr weekly requirement is somehow insane Mythic raiding requirements?

I seriously dont get the complains of the majority of this forum, this is the most raid logging expansion of the last 3, and its amazing for people like me, there is nothing i hated more than logging on every day, to do pointless shity WQs to not stay behind on AP in both of the 2 previous shitty expansions, not because my raid asked me, i am the raid literally and we only casually clear HC and slack, because i enjoy my character being up to par.

I'm confused by your post, you're flip flopping on disagreeing and agreeing with me.

[potis]

I'm confused by your post, you're flip flopping on disagreeing and agreeing with me.

I am not trying to mock you or belittle you with the rest of the post, but i am just saying your whining over the matter holds no substance.

All the extra content they have added are irrelevant to any decent player, therefor they hold no substance.

No decent player dings max level and does "Normal and HC dungeons", they cleave down the Mythic (M0) dungeons few hours after they hit max level, finish the timegated stuff and thats it, then they repeat that on weekly reset and start cleaving down M+, in WoD it was literally the same, but log off/pointless Garrison stuff, since no M+.

The problem you describe in your posts is literally non-existent, or you created it so you can find a loophole to quit because you were burnt out, or simply not good enough or knowledgeable at the game to do exactly what you are supposed to.

The same way the majority of this forum does , most of the problems are non-existent, and the actual problems arent even mentioned,or they are, but they get lost in the endless posts of the non-existent problems.

[Vampyrr]

The problem is gearing though. Look at just shadowlands

In Legion and even BFA, if you made an alt it wasn't a big deal, even if it was the last tier of the expansion, You could just grind lfr/M+ and eventually you'd get WF/TF pieces to catch you up, and doing that would also get you azerite. But with the removal of WF/TF alts are fucked

This is only the 2nd tier, and you hit 60 then what? Well You need to get ilvl, well that's easy you can buy all 200 pieces. Except Normal drops 226 which means if you expect to get invited to anything you need atleast a 220-226 ilvl. "use your own key" ppl will still leave when they see you as a carry. WELL do lfr, cool, I got 1 piece and 1 shard in the last 2 weeks on my alt. So now I need to hope I get 2 more shards in another 4 weeks of the same variety or i'm out of luck.
And those don't even work in M+ so you're still behind on ilvl. While doing that you need to farm conduits, and legendaries and then uprgade them from farming torghast. Unless your legendary drops from a world boss who won't be up in 4 weeks then fuck you right?

OH THE VAULT, "Blizz made the vault which gives you 9 options a week" yeah if you pvp and manage to get in 10 Mythic + runs at 200 ilvl.

It's seriously the most unfriendly alt expansion i've ever seen.

The problem was NEVER gearing. Gearing is the easiest thing to do. The problem right now is renown and legendary farming. Gearing is the fun part and what you actually play the alt to do.

[Nutri]

Gearing isn't the problem.

As an example, look at Cataclysm. No shitty systems, no grinds, no timegating for alts, nothing.
Get to max level, be raid ready in 1-2 resets by just spamming dungeons.

Perfect. It's the systems that make leveling alts tedious.

[jazen]

210 gear is worthless though.
It was basically worthless last patch and is 100% worthless this patch. You can get full 210 gear from Korthia in like a week after all, and full 220 in 2-3 weeks. Full 233 in 5-6 depending on how much you grind out rep for tier 6 archivists to unlock it

For one alt...since it's not account wide that's a lot of grind if you play multiple toons. not that I really care anymore, as I've really cut back on play time so not terribly concerned with ilvl anymore. But it's nice being 210+ for the little time I do play, chasing anima for achievements and tmogs, things die faster.

[Empower]

That cant be right - someone said today it would take "a few hours" to get heroic/mythic ready on a new toon / forgotten alt.

- - - Updated - - -



Lets be honest here - that is nothing at all like what the person said - and putting it in quotations doesnt change that.

I think it was me and yeah it take me only a few hours to get an alt ready to clear heroic and start mythic gear wise. It would be a mythic 0 tour roughly 2-3 hours. A veiled market run another hour give or take and then 15s.

Gear isn't an issue to a skilled player. It's the month long choreghast runs and the bullshit you gotta jump through for conduit upgrades and sockets.

[Malania]

I am not trying to mock you or belittle you with the rest of the post, but i am just saying your whining over the matter holds no substance.

All the extra content they have added are irrelevant to any decent player, therefor they hold no substance.

No decent player dings max level and does "Normal and HC dungeons", they cleave down the Mythic (M0) dungeons few hours after they hit max level, finish the timegated stuff and thats it, then they repeat that on weekly reset and start cleaving down M+, in WoD it was literally the same, but log off/pointless Garrison stuff, since no M+.

The problem you describe in your posts is literally non-existent, or you created it so you can find a loophole to quit because you were burnt out, or simply not good enough or knowledgeable at the game to do exactly what you are supposed to.

The same way the majority of this forum does , most of the problems are non-existent, and the actual problems arent even mentioned,or they are, but they get lost in the endless posts of the non-existent problems.

The *whining* held substance to me. I went from requiring minimal input required by completing BIS from one layer of Dungeons (Heroic) to requiring 2 (Heroic to upgrade to mythic). This was an extra tier of content I needed to complete before I could go into a raid that I wasn't prepared to deal with precisely because I was burned out.

Currently players will clear mythic upon reaching the gear requirement but prior to WoD it didn't exist as a difficulty and I didn't need to gear up in heroics to move to it so I could then raid.

I'm frankly impressed you feel yourself the arbiter of what is and isn't an issue for all players of WoW.

[anon5123]

Expansion is "suffering" from the fact players are getting older and no one has time.

I love how people are still using this excuse even when Blizzard said that the average age of vanilla players back in 2005 was mid-20s

lmao

[potis]

The *whining* held substance to me. I went from requiring minimal input required by completing BIS from one layer of Dungeons (Heroic) to requiring 2 (Heroic to upgrade to mythic). This was an extra tier of content I needed to complete before I could go into a raid that I wasn't prepared to deal with precisely because I was burned out.

Currently players will clear mythic upon reaching the gear requirement but prior to WoD it didn't exist as a difficulty and I didn't need to gear up in heroics to move to it so I could then raid.

I'm frankly impressed you feel yourself the arbiter of what is and isn't an issue for all players of WoW.

I typed a lot and deleted it multiple times until i re-read what you said, which shows you havent played at a level where you understand what i am talking about and that nothing has changed.

I will repeat it, decent players do not do irrelevant content, there is no extra difficulty.

Simplest i can make it for you.

Old system:

4-6 useless leveling dungeons that werent run at max level or close to max level, because they didnt drop anything relevant and create Queue 1 for them.

Unlock 2-4 dungeons at max level or closed to max level-->No queue system for these 2-4 dungeons, (if my memory doesnt betray me, the Queue 1 system excluded the lower dungeons, so you were simply repeating the same 2 dungeons or they didnt have a "leveling difficulty" and only "Heroic Dungeon")

And Heroic Dungeons with a Queue 2 system.

New System:

Introduce new scaling system.

Take the 2-4 dungeons that were unlocking at max level and scale them down, merge them into Queue 1 system that is now scaleable, while leveling you now have 8 dungeons "unlocking while leveling" (same as before) but close to max level, instead of 2 dungeons, or only "Heroic" you have 8.

Take 2-4 dungeons that were unlocking at max level from Queue 1 and name it Queue 2, because of the new scale system, you have 8 dungeons, not 2.

Rename Heroic to Mythic and remove the queue system from them.

Where exactly is the extra difficulty? Because they added more dungeons to the system and mixed them up, you magically made a "new tier" appear.

I will use Cata Dungeons to make you understand it following the WoWhead guide from 10 years ago:

https://www.wowhead.com/guide=catacl...enshots:abc:12 (Guide is a bit wrong as usual with wowhead, following Cataclysm database the below are correctish) https://cata-twinhead.twinstar.cz/

You have Blackrock/Stonecore/Vortex Pinnacle/Throne of the Tides as leveling dungeons from 80 to 84-->Queue 1 system, 4 dungeons.

You unlocked Tolvir/Grim Batol/HoO at 84-85-->Queue 1 max level system, above dungeons almost never popped, unless it couldnt find a max level player and you were fucked, running a lower dungeon (terrible system).

Their Heroics, along with Heroic Deadmines and Heroic Shadowfang Keep-->Queue 2 system.

What they actually did:

They simply took Queue 2 System, named it "Mythic Dungeons" and removed from Queue 2.

Scaling added into Queue 1 and because the item level range was weird, it was split into the 2 queues.

They kept the item level of the max level dungeons and named it "Heroic Dungeons" where its static into Queue 2 in this case, Halls of Origination item level, and they kept the scaling that fit the item level of leveling into Queue 1.

[Malania]

I typed a lot and deleted it multiple times until i re-read what you said, which shows you havent played at a level where you understand what i am talking about and that nothing has changed.

I will repeat it, decent players do not do irrelevant content, there is no extra difficulty.

Simplest i can make it for you.

Old system:

4-6 useless leveling dungeons that werent run at max level or close to max level, because they didnt drop anything relevant and create Queue 1 for them.

Unlock 2-4 dungeons at max level or closed to max level-->No queue system for these 2-4 dungeons, (if my memory doesnt betray me, the Queue 1 system excluded the lower dungeons, so you were simply repeating the same 2 dungeons or they didnt have a "leveling difficulty" and only "Heroic Dungeon")

And Heroic Dungeons with a Queue 2 system.

New System:

Introduce new scaling system.

Take the 2-4 dungeons that were unlocking at max level and scale them down, merge them into Queue 1 system that is now scaleable, while leveling you now have 8 dungeons "unlocking while leveling" (same as before) but close to max level, instead of 2 dungeons, or only "Heroic" you have 8.

Take 2-4 dungeons that were unlocking at max level from Queue 1 and name it Queue 2, because of the new scale system, you have 8 dungeons, not 2.

Rename Heroic to Mythic and remove the queue system from them.

Where exactly is the extra difficulty? Because they added more dungeons to the system and mixed them up, you magically made a "new tier" appear.

I will use Cata Dungeons to make you understand it following the WoWhead guide from 10 years ago:

https://www.wowhead.com/guide=catacl...enshots:abc:12 (Guide is a bit wrong as usual with wowhead, following Cataclysm database the below are correctish) https://cata-twinhead.twinstar.cz/

You have Blackrock/Stonecore/Vortex Pinnacle/Throne of the Tides as leveling dungeons from 80 to 84-->Queue 1 system, 4 dungeons.

You unlocked Tolvir/Grim Batol/HoO at 84-85-->Queue 1 max level system, above dungeons almost never popped, unless it couldnt find a max level player and you were fucked, running a lower dungeon (terrible system).

Their Heroics, along with Heroic Deadmines and Heroic Shadowfang Keep-->Queue 2 system.

What they actually did:

They simply took Queue 2 System, named it "Mythic Dungeons" and removed from Queue 2.

Scaling added into Queue 1 and because the item level range was weird, it was split into the 2 queues.

They kept the item level of the max level dungeons and named it "Heroic Dungeons" where its static into Queue 2 in this case, Halls of Origination item level, and they kept the scaling that fit the item level of leveling into Queue 1.

tl;dr but thanks for playing.

[potis]

tl;dr but thanks for playing.

Its fine, nothing more expected , as i said on my first sentence, another clueless player that paid money for years to be a failure at pixels, at least i tried to educate you.

[Malania]

Its fine, nothing more expected , as i said on my first sentence, another clueless player that paid money for years to be a failure at pixels, at least i tried to educate you.

You did and the world is a better place for it. The light of God has shone through you and illuminated the world through your wisdom. Clap fucking clap.

- - - Updated - - -

I love how people are still using this excuse even when Blizzard said that the average age of vanilla players back in 2005 was mid-20s

lmao

But that just means the average player is now mid 40's? Most people have kids, mortgages and jobs by their 40's. (I'm 39) and like shit do I have time to raid. It interrupts my nap.

[kamuimac]

My Friends and I were doing Heroic Sylvanas and we were discussing wow and how its rough gearing alts when there is just so much things you have to do in order to get them raid ready.

I then thought of this - Add all dungeons to the Normal and Heroic Queues

What I mean by this is instead of having these max level dungeons for only one week during Timewalking, why not implement the same tech used in Normal mode dungeons and have them scale to players levels and roll them into the normal dungeon Queues and have level 60 versions of them in the random Heroic Dungeon queue.

This would also enable them to bring back another currency long forgotten - Justice badges.

Justice then can be used to buy item level 210 gear off a vendor as well as the conduit upgrades that can boost a conduit up to 226 ilvl. This would go a long long LONG way for

As for Timewalking - It can still exist However I feel like its such a waste that you only do some of these dungeons while leveling and never again until its that expansion's time walking week. Also I would like to see Timewalking expanded on with more raids.

I would kill for a Timewalking version of raids past Firelands, also get Legion in the rotation now. We had WoD during BFA so why wasn't Legion added during Shadowlands?

Mop - Throne of Thunder
WoD - Blackrock Foundry
Legion - The Nighthold

I dunno, I feel like this would be a nice way to gear alts between Korthia and such.

and what would that change ? 226 is trash tier gear atm when almost all people who are even semi serious about game are already 245 +

[anon5123]

But that just means

Most players were already "old" 15 years ago when the game first launched.

That's my point.

And yet still, everyone's all "ohhhhh everyone is an adult now nobody has time to play"....just kind of exposing themselves as zoomers who were single digit aged when the game first came out.

[arkanon]

Most players were already "old" 15 years ago when the game first launched.

That's my point.

And yet still, everyone's all "ohhhhh everyone is an adult now nobody has time to play"....just kind of exposing themselves as zoomers who were single digit aged when the game first came out.

If someones life hasnt changed much / at all between being a late teen (17/18/19) and being mid/late 30s, then I feel sorry for those people. It has nothing to do with "being an adult" and everything to do with priorities and responsibilities. 18yo's are still focused on school / education / training and typically do not have their own family. They have a LOT of free time, whether they go to school or work, as most that are employed would be entry level positions with no responsibility / fixed hours of work.

Someone in their mid 30s has a wife/husband, kid/s, financial responsibilities, and unless something has gone wrong for them, will be on a much more demanding (and more rewarding) career path. Many (not all) of these jobs have a LOT of take-home stress and responsibilities.

Obviously, there are always exceptions to these, and there is no fixed path everyone should take, but for the most part this is all standard stuff.

[exochaft]

The sheer fucking work they make you put in now... Every guild who raids mythic should get sponsorships as far as I'm concerned.

Especially if you play as Alliance on a US/EU server.

That was one of the contributing factors as to why I unsubbed: raiding at the highest level was becoming more of a chore and more about constantly trying to get people who actually want to raid, not the actual raid difficulty themselves. Blizz will need to fix a lot of the issues surrounding mythic raiding for me to even come back to the game. Personally, I'd rather go back to normal/heroic only raids. Ideally, I'd prefer Ulduar-style raid structures, where heroic is the highest difficulty and hardmodes on a few bosses in normal/heroic are mythic-level difficulty that only reward non-power items (such as mounts, titles, xmog, etc.). I wouldn't even be opposed if they flex raid it all, because a lot of the issues with raiding (and the game itself) stem from having too many raid difficulties across too many bosses, leading to gear scaling issues and a lot of extra sunk time spent on balancing difficulty that could be better spent elsewhere... and that's only the surface of what it would address.

Regardless, there are many other problems with the game, but with respect to the OP and the dungeons: what you're describing (besides FF14) is actually a symptom of an issue that Blizz has embraced a lot in recent expansions, and that's only making disposable content. When I say disposable content, I mean that they spent a ton of time and money creating content and systems (whether it's dungeons, raids, literal systems, etc.) that will only last one patch or maybe the expansion. Not only does this have Blizz constantly reinventing the wheel, but also it gives players a sense that they're wasting their time on something that won't last. M+ is about the only system that has been making dungeons relevant for the entire expansion, which is a plus side to that system... but so much more could be done across the board to make current/past dungeons relevant to everyone regardless of your end-game style.

Beyond that, it's hard at this point to keep track of all the recent systems that are one-and-done; while most people think of borrowed power systems that get tossed out every expansion, there's also non-power systems like the Mage Tower, the MoP Garden, Island Expeditions, or even the garrison just to name a few, all that could've been updated or improved every patch beyond their expansion to add more things to do in the game that would be relevant to players. Instead, all such systems that could have been much more get the Archaeology/First Aid treatment: they're still in the game, but they don't serve a purpose for the current expansion.

There's so much more I'd like to add in relation to this topic, but I want to keep this short. However, I think the general point is that Blizz has been way too focused on the disposable content model, which is a problem for both players and the devs in many respects.