The Most evil of every race

[Combatbutler]

Ad'al seems pretty altruistic to me, all told. He safeguarded the whole of Shattrath from both Illidan and the Legion, and asked for neither compensation nor crowned himself a ruler. Same is true of O'ros and Xi'ri. There are have been bad Naaru, sure; but they seem the exception as opposed to the rule.

He is ultimately focused on the light, it is what drives him and how he operates, shifting people in the direction to achieve their goals. Through these actions he could easily buy himself their loyalty. I am just waiting on the day we have to mow down Aldor and Scryers.

There was nothing for them to "look into," and both Archimonde and Kil'jaeden thought the essence of Sargeras' offer was genuinely intended (wrongly, it turned out, but all the same). They even appeared to look it over for possible deception, because Kil'jaeden confirms his belief that the offer couldn't have been fabricated. You're basically blaming the victims in this case. Being gullible or tricked doesn't make you complicit in another person's crimes, as it were, excuses or no.

Velen voiced doubts, he was dismissed, warnings were there, they just chose to ignore it. If you are manipulated to kill you still bear some responsibility, especially if you get to love it.

[VinceVega]

hmmm... we have a stellar crew:


Human: Arthas (then Kel'thuzzad)
Orc: Gul'dan (then Garrosh)

Draenei: Kil'jaeden (then Archimonde)
Thalassian Elf: Sylvanas (then Dark'han)

Night Elf: Azshara (then Xavius)
Worgen: none

Forsaken: Putris
Tauren: Magatha Grimtotem

Dwarf: King Thaurissian
Gnome: King Mechagon

Goblin: Gallywix
Panda:

Troll: Prophet Zul

Interesting how several horde leaders actually make the list of most evil of race. However, it's the so called pretty/good races that are typically famous for virtue that have the most evil race members. (

I don't think Garrosh, Arthas and Slyvannas are evil... more... broken? No matter what you think about the lore it is what it is. Also Gallywix is not really evil. More Greedy and ruthless. But not per se evil i would say.
Putris the same. He is too broken. Tortured and filled with revenge.
Azshara... arrogant... evil... meh...
I don't think any of them are actually evil except Magatha and Xavius tbh.

Half of them got tricked into stuff they did not fully understand or got played a really really bad hand which led to stuff out of their control. (Arthas and Sylvannas e.g.)

[Aucald]

He is ultimately focused on the light, it is what drives him and how he operates, shifting people in the direction to achieve their goals. Through these actions he could easily buy himself their loyalty. I am just waiting on the day we have to mow down Aldor and Scryers.

You may be waiting a long, long time for that - for multiple possible reasons.

Velen voiced doubts, he was dismissed, warnings were there, they just chose to ignore it. If you are manipulated to kill you still bear some responsibility, especially if you get to love it.

Velen was himself unsure of the offer, it wasn't until he was clued in by the Naaru that he knew for sure it was less than genuine. The Eredar weren't "manipulated to kill," they were literally corrupted and turned into demonic caricatures of themselves by a god-like being. They did not choose this, because the choice they were given was a false one in the first place. That's a pretty hefty mitigating circumstance when it comes to bearing responsibility. We would generally not hold someone fully liable if a third party drugged them into incoherence and then set them loose with a loaded firearm and no actual control over their faculties. In that case, responsibility would lie with the third party, or in this case, with Sargeras for turning them into chaotic and evil demons.

[loras]

Ner'zhul was certainly second if not first among evil orcs, the dude ripped his planet to bits and became the lich king!

For humans it is not so easy, as most were corrupted against their will by external forces (Arthas, Medivh, archbishop whatshisface).

Trolls probably Zul yeah, that dude had more options to be evil than most others... and decided to use virtually all of them.

Dwarves? There's Thaurissan, summoner of Ragnaros, or Modgud wielder of Xal'atath, but beyond those two i am uncertain.

Gnomes: Thermaplugg.

Night Elves: Queen Aszhara.

Draenei: Othaar (or Archimonde if eredar are counted; he was the more conscious chooser if the two).

Worgen: They're hardly a single race, but i'd expect some servant of scourge-resurrected Arugal.

Pandaren: They're panda's, seriously.

Tauren: Grimtotem crone whatsherface.

Forsaken: Many to choose from, Putress is up there for his betrayal at the wrathgate, and Sylvanas of course as well, though her culpability is as of yet unclear.

Goblins: Gallywix is up there, but honestly not for want of contenders.

Blood elves: Probably Kael'thas, i mean he did cause a Legion invasion.

Not gonna do all the allied variants, and i consider i.e. dark irons to just be dwarves for this purpose.

[Combatbutler]

You may be waiting a long, long time for that - for multiple possible reasons.

Well have been waiting since the damn windchimes were introduced and am always happy when one those bastards bites the dust.

Velen was himself unsure of the offer, it wasn't until he was clued in by the Naaru that he knew for sure it was less than genuine. The Eredar weren't "manipulated to kill," they were literally corrupted and turned into demonic caricatures of themselves by a god-like being. They did not choose this, because the choice they were given was a false one in the first place. That's a pretty hefty mitigating circumstance when it comes to bearing responsibility. We would generally not hold someone fully liable if a third party drugged them into incoherence and then set them loose with a loaded firearm and no actual control over their faculties. In that case, responsibility would lie with the third party, or in this case, with Sargeras for turning them into chaotic and evil demons.

You don't need to hold them fully responsible, they are just as responsible as the orcs , not to mention parts of their society were long since rotten, long before Sargeras even came about, Archimonde being the prime example of it. Say they are just partial responsible the blood on their hands still eclipses genocides, massacres etc. of any other mortal based race by a margin utterly astronomical in comparison, even Velen himself argues about responsibility, heck even culpability.

The scale is just so massive it has reached a point at which it doesn't really matter anymore if they were tricked or not

[Aucald]

You don't need to hold them fully responsible, they are just as responsible as the orcs , not to mention parts of their society were long since rotten, long before Sargeras even came about, Archimonde being the prime example of it. Say they are just partial responsible the blood on their hands still eclipses genocides, massacres etc. of any other mortal based race by a margin utterly astronomical in comparison, even Velen himself argues about responsibility, heck even culpability.

The scale is just so massive it has reached a point at which it doesn't really matter anymore if they were tricked or not

Archimonde was kind of a dick even before he became a demon, sure; but that doesn't make him evil nor say that his forced conversion to demonhood was somehow justified. The problem with your assertion here is the assumption that non-demonic Eredar and the demons they became posit a continuity of character, and I think you're mistaken there. There's a vast difference between somehow who receives power and decides to become a genocidal tyrant and someone who is literally turned into a corrupted evil version of their prior self by a higher power and becomes a genocidal tyrant. In the latter example, the original person who became a demon is literally a different entity, who can't really be held liable for the actions of the entity they were transformed into. Now to what degree the original Archimonde or Kil'jaeden exist within the corrupted demons they became might be debatable, but the essential shift in their very nature has to be accounted for. Agency is a factor when it comes to determining the scope of evil.

[Combatbutler]

Archimonde was kind of a dick even before he became a demon, sure; but that doesn't make him evil nor say that his forced conversion to demonhood was somehow justified. The problem with your assertion here is the assumption that non-demonic Eredar and the demons they became posit a continuity of character, and I think you're mistaken there. There's a vast difference between somehow who receives power and decides to become a genocidal tyrant and someone who is literally turned into a corrupted evil version of their prior self by a higher power and becomes a genocidal tyrant. In the latter example, the original person who became a demon is literally a different entity, who can't really be held liable for the actions of the entity they were transformed into. Now to what degree the original Archimonde or Kil'jaeden exist within the corrupted demons they became might be debatable, but the essential shift in their very nature has to be accounted for. Agency is a factor when it comes to determining the scope of evil.

Well I disagree with your assumption based on the interaction we had with the Draenei as a whole, they are a good indicator what the race was like before and the lightforged are scum plain and simple, ordinary Draenei aren't saints either, often having a problem with being powerhungry or in search of their great purpose.The way I see it no race is as prone to corruption as those spawned from Argus

[Aucald]

Well I disagree with your assumption based on the interaction we had with the Draenei as a whole, they are a good indicator what the race was like before and the lightforged are scum plain and simple, ordinary Draenei aren't saints either, often having a problem with being powerhungry or in search of their great purpose.The way I see it no race is as prone to corruption as those spawned from Argus

The Draenei have ~30,000 years worth of social drift from the pre-demonic Eredar, so judging the pre-demonic Eredar based on the actions of a handful of Draenei is probably not going to be very conclusive. Similar with using the Lightforged as an example, as they too are only a small cross-section of Draenei, and only the AU version of the Lightforged could be considered ostensibly evil. "Prone to corruption" also implies an agency I've demonstrated that the Eredar lacked when it comes to their conversion to demonhood. The Elves, for example, would seem to be far worse when compared to the Draenei when it comes to willfully condoning evil, or willfully becoming demonic. From the Satyrs to the Felblood to the Naga, from Azshara to Xavius to Kael'thas, the Elves have a history of choosing evil that would far eclipse the Draenei.

[Combatbutler]

The Draenei have ~30,000 years worth of social drift from the pre-demonic Eredar, so judging the pre-demonic Eredar based on the actions of a handful of Draenei is probably not going to be very conclusive. Similar with using the Lightforged as an example, as they too are only a small cross-section of Draenei, and only the AU version of the Lightforged could be considered ostensibly evil. "Prone to corruption" also implies an agency I've demonstrated that the Eredar lacked when it comes to their conversion to demonhood.

They carry on the spark of their civilization and we get a glimpse at intact parts of argus later on, so with all that in mind I stand by my statements.

The sole reason sargeras angle worked in first place is due to their hunger for power and most importantly knowledge. Pretty much the same reason the blue smurf decided to overthrow the cosmos and quit his arbiter job.

The Elves, for example, would seem to be far worse when compared to the Draenei when it comes to willfully condoning evil, or willfully becoming demonic. From the Satyrs to the Felblood to the Naga, from Azshara to Xavius to Kael'thas, the Elves have a history of choosing evil that would far eclipse the Draenei.

That is a comparison you can't really make, since the elves as a whole are the equivalent of the eredar as a whole and by comparison the elves even with their most twisted characters look like saints.

[Aucald]

They carry on the spark of their civilization and we get a glimpse at intact parts of argus later on, so with all that in mind I stand by my statements.

The sole reason sargeras angle worked in first place is due to their hunger for power and most importantly knowledge. Pretty much the same reason the blue smurf decided to overthrow the cosmos and quit his arbiter job.

Chronicle Vol. 1 makes it clear what they intend to do with said power and knowledge, though; which is a pretty far cry from what Sargeras intended to do with it. Suffice it to say, their intended view of the deal and the ultimate result differ wildly.

That is a comparison you can't really make, since the elves as a whole are the equivalent of the eredar as a whole and by comparison the elves even with their most twisted characters look like saints.

It's a comparison I just made, and it stands. The Elves also aren't at all the equivalent of the Eredar, especially given the states of their empires post-collapse. Unlike the Eredar, the Elves have a marked penchant for willingly and knowingly courting the Legion, as opposed to being explicitly tricked by them. Archimonde and Kil'jaeden required deception on Sargeras' part, but neither Azshara nor Xavius did. Ditto for Kael'thas, who outright knew what Kil'jaeden was all about when he joined him in Outland.

[Combatbutler]

Chronicle Vol. 1 makes it clear what they intend to do with said power and knowledge, though; which is a pretty far cry from what Sargeras intended to do with it. Suffice it to say, their intended view of the deal and the ultimate result differ wildly.

I know I have read it and it is a fancy way to say. Hey we will either become colonial overlords, forcing our way of life onto the universe, or conquerors, I particularity love the part of Velen telling them "hey something is fishy here", but he is ignored even fears his beloved uncorrupted brothers will kill him if he doesn't shut up about it.

It's a comparison I just made, and it stands. The Elves also aren't at all the equivalent of the Eredar, especially given the states of their empires post-collapse. Unlike the Eredar, the Elves have a marked penchant for willingly and knowingly courting the Legion, as opposed to being explicitly tricked by them. Archimonde and Kil'jaeden required deception on Sargeras' part, but neither Azshara nor Xavius did. Ditto for Kael'thas, who outright knew what Kil'jaeden was all about when he joined him in Outland.

The difference being that each time elves, no matter what group got a problem with demons, the vast majority of the population said nope and took down their leadership, despite promises of power and greatness. Something the Draenei never managed to do, each time they got demon problems they ran or got steamrolled until the people of Azeroth won their millennia spanning civil war for them.

The elves have a corruption problem but even if they go at it for another 100k years they won't be able to catch up to the people of argus either in corruption or bodycount, I dare say no playable race could.

[Triceron]

This is an odd list, to say the least.

[Raisei]

I feel this thread is using the term ''evil'' very loosely here. I mean none of the above is inherently evil by Garrosh, but rather just byproducts of his actions. If I trip over a stone, but it turns out that the stone I accidentally moved triggered an alien race to come conquer Earth, am I now evil? If I kill a child, but I did it in order to save 1000 other children, am I now evil?

Yes that would apply if Garrosh went back just to help his people, but he went back to help his people then turn them into an army to overrun Azeroth and kill the people that turned on him when he went insane. Soooo... yeah... if motivation matters then he is still very evil

[spalernTJ]

Pandaren; What about the jade witch, who turned people into jade statues, "Just because"?

[Aucald]

I know I have read it and it is a fancy way to say. Hey we will either become colonial overlords, forcing our way of life onto the universe, or conquerors, I particularity love the part of Velen telling them "hey something is fishy here", but he is ignored even fears his beloved uncorrupted brothers will kill him if he doesn't shut up about it.

Which, again, you're making an implication for which there is no evidence - we have no idea what the Eredar might have done had they not been corrupted by Sargeras. Seems rather fanciful and more than a little bias-confirming based on the text of Chronicle, in my view. I also don't recall Velen ever being afraid that an uncorrupted Kil'jaeden or Archimonde would kill him, at least not until he knew the full import of what Sargeras intended and knew that his brothers would become demonic once they accepted the offer.

The difference being that each time elves, no matter what group got a problem with demons, the vast majority of the population said nope and took down their leadership, despite promises of power and greatness. Something the Draenei never managed to do, each time they got demon problems they ran or got steamrolled until the people of Azeroth won their millennia spanning civil war for them.

The elves have a corruption problem but even if they go at it for another 100k years they won't be able to catch up to the people of argus either in corruption or bodycount, I dare say no playable race could.

The Draenei were tricked by Sargeras and forcibly converted to demons en masse, a distinction the Elves do not share in. They did avoid being corrupted en masse because of that, but they still a had large cross-section of their people who willingly accepted the Legion's (and the Old Gods') offer knowing full well the results. Neither Azshara, Xavius, Peroth'arn, or Kael'thas have the same mitigating excuse that Archimonde or Kil'jaeden would.

The Legion as a major power is gone now, so there's no way of confirming your supposition.

[Tripzzz]

The difference being that each time elves, no matter what group got a problem with demons, the vast majority of the population said nope and took down their leadership, despite promises of power and greatness. Something the Draenei never managed to do, each time they got demon problems they ran or got steamrolled until the people of Azeroth won their millennia spanning civil war for them.

The elves have a corruption problem but even if they go at it for another 100k years they won't be able to catch up to the people of argus either in corruption or bodycount, I dare say no playable race could.

The elves never did it on their own. They needed outside help every time, no different than the Draenei.

[erifwodahs]

How do you categorize "the most evil"? because in my eyes most evil people do evil things for the sake of doing it. Most of those you named very evil for a purpose and not just to be evil.

[Combatbutler]

Which, again, you're making an implication for which there is no evidence - we have no idea what the Eredar might have done had they not been corrupted by Sargeras. Seems rather fanciful and more than a little bias-confirming based on the text of Chronicle, in my view.

I am making an assumption on their goal and since they basically wanted to more or less shape the universe to their whim

I also don't recall Velen ever being afraid that an uncorrupted Kil'jaeden or Archimonde would kill him, at least not until he knew the full import of what Sargeras intended and knew that his brothers would become demonic once they accepted the offer.

It happens at the exact same moment he warns them the first time. It is right there in chronicle.

The Draenei were tricked by Sargeras and forcibly converted to demons en masse, a distinction the Elves do not share in. They did avoid being corrupted en masse because of that, but they still a had large cross-section of their people who willingly accepted the Legion's (and the Old Gods') offer knowing full well the results. Neither Azshara, Xavius, Peroth'arn, or Kael'thas have the same mitigating excuse that Archimonde or Kil'jaeden would.

They had a decent shot, but failed as Velen so nicely put it, he is culpable in the whole mess.

The Legion as a major power is gone now, so there's no way of confirming your supposition.

It might be gone now, but the children of argus slaughtered their way through the merry cosmos for thousands and thousands of years is still a fact, the chances of any other race catching up to their mass murdering tendencies is quite unlikely.

Though we can continue this for hours on end and will never agree, I know the entire sourcematerial canon and non canon and have come to my conclussion you have reached yours.

My final statement concerning the children of Argus, they are easily corruptible parasites, with a habit of spreading misery wherever they go and likely will never be able to atone for the suffering they caused across the cosmos and most damning of all a walking talking retcon.

- - - Updated - - -

The elves never did it on their own. They needed outside help every time, no different than the Draenei.

That wasn't the point, the point was the vast majority of the Eredar never resisted, nor did the vast majority of the draenei going forward, their motto was running and ignoring their problem , until they couldn't run any longer they got put in the ground, by a bunch of caveman pretty hard.

[Tripzzz]

That wasn't the point, the point was the vast majority of the Eredar never resisted, nor did the vast majority of the draenei going forward, their motto was running and ignoring their problem , until they couldn't fight any longer they got put in the ground, by bunch of caveman pretty hard.

Most didn't resist because they were "tricked", an excuse the Horde knows and loves to use. Then you had the actual fighters of the Draenei join the Army of Light and literally fight against the Legion for a thousand years. (Who ended up stomping the caveman so hard in another alternate timeline, the cavemen had to run away to another reality)

[Aucald]

I am making an assumption on their goal and since they basically wanted to more or less shape the universe to their whim

There is a pretty stark difference between "shaping the universe to one's whim" and bringing enlightenment and peace to the universe. We can debate the means to ends question all day and make no forward progress, but from a semantic and syntactic standpoint, the two things aren't synonymous. Your assumption is as equally possible and unknowable as any other.

It happens at the exact same moment he warns them the first time. It is right there in chronicle.

According to page. 51 of Chronicle Vol. 1 it happens after Velen's Naaru-provided vision of the Eredar becoming demons, and the context makes it clear he is afraid the *demonic* Kil'jaeden and Archimonde could kill him (or worse). That is why they flee Argus to begin with.

They had a decent shot, but failed as Velen so nicely put it, he is culpable in the whole mess.

Velen certainly feels culpable, and that's his right. But we're talking more objectively than Velen could, given the circumstances.

It might be gone now, but the children of argus slaughtered their way through the merry cosmos for thousands and thousands of years is still a fact, the chances of any other race catching up to their mass murdering tendencies is quite unlikely.

Though we can continue this for hours on end and will never agree, I know the entire sourcematerial canon and non canon and have come to my conclussion you have reached yours.

My final statement concerning the children of Argus, they are easily corruptible parasites, with a habit of spreading misery wherever they go and likely will never be able to atone for the suffering they caused across the cosmos.

The forcibly converted demonic beings who were formerly the "children of Argus," sure. No one is saying the demonic Eredar weren't horrifically bad, either.

But if you're completely set in your opinion and unwilling or unable to accept mitigating circumstances exist, then you're correct that there's no dialectic to be had. I think you've reached a bad conclusion based on insufficient evidence, but if your mind is made up then that's that.