To all the Bellulars, Asmogolds, Preaches, QoL'ers and Fans that want to Design WOW.

[crusadernero]

I have a good reason: Criticizing a game and actually being a game developer are two vastly different things.

Disregarding that making a video game isn't something you just "do", let alone an MMORPG.
It's frankly the weakest criticism you can have towards anybody, it's not a reasonable suggestion to tell someone to learn how to develop a video game (which takes years, mind you), start a business take on a huge loan that will sink you financially for the rest of your live if you fuck up, in order to be in a valid position to criticize another video game.
Not even mentioning that is also a life altering decision, if you don't like working 10h/day for a few months / years, then developing an MMO from scratch may not be a good career path.

We can all argue all day whether suggestion X or Y is good/bad, but you can't just tell people that when they dislike an aspect of a video game that they're "wrong" or reminding them that they're not a dev and thus their criticism is invalid somehow.
This is not how this works, you don't need to be a veteran in game design in order to "legitimately" dislike something.

People like Asmongold or Bellular have also criticized Shadowlands quite frequently durings its Beta.

Case in point: Covenants

Im not saying they cant have opinions, everyone can have them. In that sense, the opinions of these content creators are not more important than any other persons, be it a random wow player that never goes on forums or avid forum posters like us. In any case, the people that take part if forums without nothing to gain from it really, deserves more praise than content creators that flush out negative spins on the daily.

That said, what you described is just why these content creators are more happy just making these videos than actually stepping into the industry as a dev. Cause as you said, its alot harder than what content creators do. In any case, you just proved my point. Its much, much easier looking into something from the outside and say "HEY this is shit, fix it! This is how you do it, its easy!" than to actually make a game. Its also a very nice a comfortable spot to be in, cause they generate revenue if wow goes in the shitter or if it flourish. If it goes so bad its shut down(Wont happen in yeaaaars), the very same content creators can just turn around and focus on another game or genre in a heartbeat.

Point is - these content creators make a living from these videos. Never forget it.

Also - im getting the feeling that to many of these content creators have gotten into the habit of being negative towards litterally anything for the sake of it. Whatever it is, theres a negative spin to it.

[Dracullus]

People like Asmongold or Bellular have also criticized Shadowlands quite frequently durings its Beta.

Case in point: Covenants

And praised a lot return of "meaningful" loot and Torghast (yes different iteration, you know that one with 70 floors that would be for sure smashing success). And Asmon has more genius idea in store like removing LFR.

Do you heard any one them saying "shit, I was wrong here and here"? No, first they praised Blizz for listening to community (beside ripcord), then they loved SL, then when community get bored started to shit on Blizzard again - not for delayed 9.1 (which of course was valid) but .. for design that was praised just few months ago and Blizz NOT LISTENING. Then covering Blizzard become hot potato and all quit, which shows there were no fun left, it was just business.

Now most of them don't even have to bother with constructive critique, you just say "Blizzard need to make wow fun again" or pick design flaw that exist for 17 years and sheeps will love it and shout you should replace Ion.

[Thestrawman]

...says the dude on a freshly minted burner. Come on, man -- you can do better.

Nice ad hominem. Page me when you've got a real argument.

Keep trying.

[TheTaurenChieftain]

I find it funny that Preach actually reacted to this thread, and one of the first things he said was "but I haven't done any WoW content in months, why am I here?".

Oh No! And me and Kallistos posts are in the center. I didn't ask to be famous!
Just kidding.

I still stand with what I said. Even though it is kinda weird to have a post of mine appear in a YouTube-Video.
On the other hand he mostly agreed with my points.

[Relapses]

Keep trying.

This is the second time you've tried to use that quote against me. At least figure out what the phrase means before quoting me out of context.

[gilfanon]

Also - im getting the feeling that to many of these content creators have gotten into the habit of being negative towards litterally anything for the sake of it. Whatever it is, theres a negative spin to it.

You've clearly missed the dozens of videos from Bellular, Preach and Asmon praising FFXIV and saying how great it is.

I played WoW since EU open Beta - I've put over a decade into the game and I've only had 4 extended breaks from the game - in each of the last 4 expansions. Prior to that I've always been happy to give Blizz my money, even if I was only logging in once or twice a week. Post MoP I just don't feel the same way. The SL break will be my last.

The design philosophy Blizzard employs can (for me at least) be summarised as "We know better than our players what counts as fun, and we have the engagement metrics to back it up". I jumped ship to FFXIV about a year back, and after getting through the slightly patchy ARR experience and into Heavensward I am absolutely appreciating the same thing that these streamers have - that this game treats you like an adult, that it tries to function as a traditional RPG with engaging story and characters with real personalities, and that the developers listen to their players, play their own game, and try to craft content that is actually enjoyable for them and their customers, not just content that keeps you logged in. Invent whatever confected narrative you like to explain away their criticism, but the reality is that those criticisms chime with a lot of people, and they're all criticisms that have been levelled at Blizz for the better part of half a decade and been dismissed. I think we're all sad about that - WoW has been a huge part of my gaming life - but that doesn't mean we're so sad that we're going to keep paying Blizzard for something that just isn't fun anymore.

[Dracullus]

Oh No! And me and Kallistos posts are in the center. I didn't ask to be famous!
Just kidding.

I still stand with what I said. Even though it is kinda weird to have a post of mine appear in a YouTube-Video.
On the other hand he mostly agreed with my points.

Why you wouldn't still stand with what you said? I don't see any counter arguments there.

[Niwes]

If anything, Blizzard is Homer, the crew making the car are their passionated devs, the fans are the people in the crowd, and Herbert is Activision in this video.

Classic episode though

exactly this.

[NineSpine]

And praised a lot return of "meaningful" loot and Torghast (yes different iteration, you know that one with 70 floors that would be for sure smashing success). And Asmon has more genius idea in store like removing LFR.

Do you heard any one them saying "shit, I was wrong here and here"? No, first they praised Blizz for listening to community (beside ripcord), then they loved SL, then when community get bored started to shit on Blizzard again - not for delayed 9.1 (which of course was valid) but .. for design that was praised just few months ago and Blizz NOT LISTENING. Then covering Blizzard become hot potato and all quit, which shows there were no fun left, it was just business.

Now most of them don't even have to bother with constructive critique, you just say "Blizzard need to make wow fun again" or pick design flaw that exist for 17 years and sheeps will love it and shout you should replace Ion.

"They praised Torghast before the system was completely changed" is a weird, weird argument. I'd also praise a nice lasagna before you took a dump in it. This isn't the gotcha you think it is.

- - - Updated - - -

Im not saying they cant have opinions, everyone can have them. In that sense, the opinions of these content creators are not more important than any other persons, be it a random wow player that never goes on forums or avid forum posters like us. In any case, the people that take part if forums without nothing to gain from it really, deserves more praise than content creators that flush out negative spins on the daily.

That said, what you described is just why these content creators are more happy just making these videos than actually stepping into the industry as a dev. Cause as you said, its alot harder than what content creators do. In any case, you just proved my point. Its much, much easier looking into something from the outside and say "HEY this is shit, fix it! This is how you do it, its easy!" than to actually make a game. Its also a very nice a comfortable spot to be in, cause they generate revenue if wow goes in the shitter or if it flourish. If it goes so bad its shut down(Wont happen in yeaaaars), the very same content creators can just turn around and focus on another game or genre in a heartbeat.

Point is - these content creators make a living from these videos. Never forget it.

Also - im getting the feeling that to many of these content creators have gotten into the habit of being negative towards litterally anything for the sake of it. Whatever it is, theres a negative spin to it.

...then why do they keep making positive videos about other games?

[Kralljin]

In that sense, the opinions of these content creators are not more important than any other persons, be it a random wow player that never goes on forums or avid forum posters like us.

The difference is however that those content creators do gain an audience based on their opinions and more or less represent a given portion of the community.

They wouldn't gain popularity if their content doesn't find any resonance.

That said, what you described is just why these content creators are more happy just making these videos than actually stepping into the industry as a dev.

And why should they..?
Is there somewhere an unwritten rule that goes "Hey, you have sooner or later become a game developer if you make videos about video games?".

That said, what you described is just why these content creators are more happy just making these videos than actually stepping into the industry as a dev. Cause as you said, its alot harder than what content creators do. In any case, you just proved my point.

I don't think anyone of these people would claim that game developer is an easier job than running a twitch or youtube channel, especially we're talking about developing an MMO from scratch.
Your logic is basically "You have to be an automobile engineer in order to give feedback on what's wrong with a car", that's just false, you don't.

Like please, this is just such a nonsensical argument that completely disregards so many factors, with a lot of them not even related to their professional skills but personal reasons.

Also - im getting the feeling that to many of these content creators have gotten into the habit of being negative towards litterally anything for the sake of it. Whatever it is, theres a negative spin to it.

The overall state of the game may also be a factor in this situation.
Disregarding that Blizzard it makes very easy for those people at times.

And praised a lot return of "meaningful" loot and Torghast (yes different iteration, you know that one with 70 floors that would be for sure smashing success).

1. I think the jury is still out on whether Titanforging, let alone Corruption, was the superior alternative
2. You basically make the assumption that the Beta version of Torghast would've been as negatively received as the one that has been delivered

Especially 2. is essentially a bad faith argument, people made videos about how good Torghast is, then Blizzard changed it, and they made more critical videos about it, mind you, Torghast already received flak when the SL was in mid / late Beta.
Did they already know that Blizzard will change Torghast, so they made "positive" videos upfront so they can claim "Blizzard ruined it"?

Like please, if you already made up your mind that they just talk BS, then just move on, because arguments sure as shit don't help to make your case.

No, first they praised Blizz for listening to community (beside ripcord)

Yeah, what about Conduit Energy?
...or the Maw.

then they loved SL, then when community get bored started to shit on Blizzard again

I think a lot of people were just happy to get out of BfA and have new WoW content.
It's not like the claim that Shadowlands had a huge start and then quickly fell on its face is somehow outlandish.

you just say "Blizzard need to make wow fun again" or pick design flaw that exist for 17 years and sheeps will love it and shout you should replace Ion.

If it were that easy to get lots of views, i think you would see a lot more of those people because that sounds like an easy way to make money.
And it's not like that someone like Bellular makes videos that have a high entertainment value in themselves.

[NineSpine]

The difference is however that those content creators do gain an audience based on their opinions and more or less represent a given portion of the community.

They wouldn't gain popularity if their content doesn't find any resonance.

And why should they..?
Is there somewhere an unwritten rule that goes "Hey, you have sooner or later become a game developer if you make videos about video games?".

I don't think anyone of these people would claim that game developer is an easier job than running a twitch or youtube channel, especially we're talking about developing an MMO from scratch.
Your logic is basically "You have to be an automobile engineer in order to give feedback on what's wrong with a car", that's just false, you don't.

Like please, this is just such a nonsensical argument that completely disregards so many factors, with a lot of them not even related to their professional skills but personal reasons.

The overall state of the game may also be a factor in this situation.
Disregarding that Blizzard makes very easy for those people at times.

1. I think the jury is still out on whether Titanforging, let alone Corruption, was the superior alternative
2. You basically make the assumption that the Beta version of Torghast would've been as negatively received as the one that has been delivered

Especially 2. is essentially a bad faith argument, people made videos about how good Torghast is, then Blizzard changed it, and they made more critical videos about it, mind you, Torghast already received flak before the game was in mid / late Beta.
Did they already know that Blizzard will change Torghast, so they made "positive" videos upfront so they can claim "Blizzard ruined it".

Like please, if you already made up your mind that they just talk BS, then just move on, because arguments sure as shit don't help to make your case.

Yeah, what about Conduit Energy?
...or the Maw.

I think a lot of people were just happy to get out of BfA and have new WoW content.
It's not like the claim that Shadowlands had a huge start and then quickly fell on its face is somehow outlandish.

If it were that easy to get lots of views, i think you would see a lot more of those people because that sounds like an easy way to make money.
And it's not like that someone like Bellular make videos that have a high entertainment value in themselves.

So check out this crazy idea: What if you could just do the content you enjoy and get currency that lets you upgrade gear to BiS, rather than convoluted RNG systems?

[Relapses]

So check out this crazy idea: What if you could just do the content you enjoy and get currency that lets you upgrade gear to BiS, rather than convoluted RNG systems?

Maybe they could make the big bad a guy with white hair who sits upon a very cold throne, too!

[Kralljin]

So check out this crazy idea: What if you could just do the content you enjoy and get currency that lets you upgrade gear to BiS, rather than convoluted RNG systems?

Sorry, i'm not a game dev, i can't comment on these ideas.

[NineSpine]

I think the huge thing that people miss in this conversation, especially the people who can't stop defending Blizzard, is that the criticisms are not of the content. WoW has amazing content. The problem is the systems surrounding that content. They find ways to make every path to engaging with the content as obnoxious as possible.

[TheTaurenChieftain]

Why you wouldn't still stand with what you said? I don't see any counter arguments there.

Jeah maybe the second post he looked at I was kinda overexaggerating. I didn't want to generalize M+ players.
It kinda seems like I am talking about all M+ players and raiders here.

I was just talking about the ones who really pushed the GO!GO!GO! mentality. Which is not every M+ player.

[NineSpine]

Jeah maybe the second post he looked at I was kinda overexaggerating. I didn't want to generalize M+ players.
It kinda seems like I am talking about all M+ players and raiders here.

I was just talking about the ones who really pushed the GO!GO!GO! mentality. Which is not every M+ player.

That's the attitude that the system encourages and rewards.

[Thestrawman]

This is the second time you've tried to use that quote against me. At least figure out what the phrase means before quoting me out of context.

Oh I know what it means. I have it saved specifically for you because you can't seem to do anything but do ad hominem attacks. Must be some form of mental deficiency. Tell Blizzard they should take the lead out of their boot polish.

[Relapses]

Oh I know what it means. I have it saved specifically for you because you can't seem to do anything but do ad hominem attacks. Must be some form of mental deficiency. Tell Blizzard they should take the lead out of their boot polish.

Instead of derailing topics with your off-topic grudge just put me on your ignore list and move on. It'll be okay.

[Ringthane]

Sorry, i'm not a game dev, i can't comment on these ideas.

Ummm...

You're new here, aren't you?

[NineSpine]

Ummm...

You're new here, aren't you?

The Joke

Your Head