You are being carried...

[WhirlwindTV]

If you do raid prog but refuse to do M+ then you are being carried. If you are just raid logging and putting no effort into improving your character then you are literally a burden on your group.

What does everyone else think? We have a few people like this in my guild and it really pisses me off. It probably shouldn't but it honestly makes me feel like giving up when some of us are throwing everything we have at a boss whilst others may as well be afk. I know, find another guild. I just do not understand people like this and how little shame they must have.

Context is everything here. Is the guild one of those that pushes to be top 50 in the world? Because if not, then realistically you're getting your panties twisted over nothing. Now, the only way i'd say otherwise is if those members are noticeably lower geared than the rest of your guild. As in everyones sitting at 240+ and they're the few just rolling up at under 233. If that is the case, then absolutely, at least show some tiny bit of effort out of respect to your teammates. Hell, you're wasting your own time pulling your group back. However if the difference isn't that stark, then all the ilvl in the world can only do so much for a guild's progression.

I'll put myself and my own guild up as an example. I play the game primarily to PvP. All my boxes are PvP until i'm fully kitted out. I'll do some keys for trinkets if my guildmates have the location I need and i'm online when they're talking about it, but specifically going out and pugging is way too cancerous for me given that you need to do all the other keys additionally to get the IO score needed to get into the groups in the first place. It just isn't worth my time or sanity to burn through all that stuff for minor upgrades. So i'm probably similar but not the same to those that piss you off. My ilvl is up there because i'm a high level PvPer, but my secondary stats aren't BiS optimal.

Do I feel shame? Not in the slightest. Why do you ask? Because of context. My guild raids twice a week for 3 hours a night. We're currently progressing on mythic Painsmith, and I can say without a doubt that there isn't a single attempt on any of the bosses in the entire raid where overall group DPS being 0.76% higher meant the difference between a kill and another wipe. 1/13 = 7.65%, my gear is a mix of mythic raid, heroic raid, and pvp and my sim weights have crit at 1.73 and vers at 1.55. So if I could magically swap 450 vers into crit, it is still extremely unlikely that it would boost my personal damage more than 10% if even that. The entire raid doing under 1% more damage isn't going to stop the wipe that happens because 4 people couldn't dodge spikes in the first Painsmith intermission. Or get the star target positioning incorrectly for the mass dispel bounce on Nerzhul. Or get the healer cds not lined up correctly to recover from chain pops on Soulrender. Or the moron dps that dropped a goop right in front of the Eyeball while swapping sides.

My guild ALWAYS lands their first kills when the group as a whole FINALLY AFTER WHAT FEELS LIKE THOUSANDS OF ATTEMPTS execute on raid mechanics for the entire fight. It isn't some dps race where we finally got the kill despite losing half our guys or pulling off fight duration records on our kills. It is NOT FAILING to mechanics. It took my guild 2 1/2 nights to get through the first Painsmith intermission with under 2 deaths. Working on making it there consistently and now getting to the 2nd intermission with that same number alive.

My guild is like the VAST MAJORITY of guilds. Held back by individuals flopping on personal responsibility mechanics. Dodge that swirl. Pull that brand out of the raid. Dodge that moving spike while not running in a ball's path. Healthstone/Defensive if you're under 50% when that raid damage is coming. Me having zero fun grinding for weeks to min/max my own gear's secondary stats or pull my overall ilvl from 243 to 245 does absolutely nothing to help my guild's frost mage with using one of his two ice blocks to save himself from certain death that results when he tunnel visions boss mechanics to squeeze out that extra frostbolt before having to move.

The race to world first guilds are actually the perfect examples of this. Obviously they do splits and feed gear and the like and getting as good as gear as they can get early absolutely helps them. They're racing after all. But they still EXECUTE on personal responsibility and because of personal ability they kill these bosses in way worse gear than the vast vast majority of people even start attempting them in. So if someone wants to come to me and try to shame me because I don't want to grind Other Side for years to get the Crit/Haste max ilvl m+ gloves instead of the Haste/Mastery ones I have from heroic for the 35 dps increase (yes I simmed them at 239vs246) in a 7.3k sim result, well my obvious answer is "ok, good luck in your recruitment of someone who can actually execute raid mechanics as reliably as I did."

[Unholyground]

I think the main problem is people are too fast paced because many people need instant gratification and can't just enjoy the journey. Though I will say blizzard doesn't help in this regard and has kind of geared some of the game towards that unfortunately. That is one of the reasons why they have had to put these bullshit systems on top of systems.

[Army Dreamer]

M+ is the root of all evil.

[ElDoorO]

Nope, i think you are twice as sad now. And no it's not meant in a sarcastic way.

Well, there you go. You simply can't handle it.

- - - Updated - - -

Your numbers are nice, so is your personal story. But that's personal as it is.

This doesn't count for every person, I can tell.

I used to be raiding end tier ( hell I even got CE emperors in MSV ) but then life happened. I now have two kids, married and a full time job in the kitchen ( about 60-72h ). I can barely fit in torghast ea. Week let alone m+ AND raiding.

Every person has a story of its own. Don't conclude based on your own. Some want to but just CANT

To be fair, the majority of the responses in this thread are just one person assuming their own experience is the majority -- which is the problem. People here can't intellectually step outside of their own paradigm before calling them a try-hard or some other insult. It's, literally, as far as their brain power goes. They weren't given much context but assumed quite a lot.

And that's what I have been pointing out that the responses seem to clearly have missed.

Especially the ones that clearly are upset that one can spend a lot of time in WoW *AND* still work *AND* still do other things. They simply CHOOSE not to.

[Coldkil]

If you do raid prog but refuse to do M+ then you are being carried. If you are just raid logging and putting no effort into improving your character then you are literally a burden on your group.

I think of it like this - It's a team sport and you refuse to turn up for practice each week before we play because you think you are better than everyone else even though you are overweight and never score.

What does everyone else think? We have a few people like this in my guild and it really pisses me off. It probably shouldn't but it honestly makes me feel like giving up when some of us are throwing everything we have at a boss whilst others may as well be afk. I know, find another guild. I just do not understand people like this and how little shame they must have.

So the issue is players not wanting to do stuff they don't like and not the fact Blizzard is incapable of making so the content rewards for a specific content are not needed for another content type?

I think i can understand better why the game is in its current state.

[Dakara]

If you do raid prog but refuse to do M+ then you are being carried. If you are just raid logging and putting no effort into improving your character then you are literally a burden on your group.

I think of it like this - It's a team sport and you refuse to turn up for practice each week before we play because you think you are better than everyone else even though you are overweight and never score.

What does everyone else think? We have a few people like this in my guild and it really pisses me off. It probably shouldn't but it honestly makes me feel like giving up when some of us are throwing everything we have at a boss whilst others may as well be afk. I know, find another guild. I just do not understand people like this and how little shame they must have.

Very interesting reading.

I await your next thread titled "Where have all the Raiders gone?" or perhaps the riveting tale of "Raiding is Dead".

Though it will never die entirely, thanks to a solid core of devoted players, WOW is on the decline and it wasn't caused by a Lawsuit. It's this belief held by a very small portion of the playerbase (and the Game Director it sees) that players should commit all their free time to WOW if they want to Raid. Be it keys or System grinds, there's always something we should be doing between Raid nights to improve our performance.

Surprise surprise, Raiding is on decline.

I stopped playing SL for a few months, came back as a Casual within my Guild and am actually enjoying the game more now that I'm not a Core raider with Big Brother tracking my weekly chores via Spreadsheet.

[docterfreeze]

did the vault system not eliminate weekly m+ for raiders?

[roahn the warlock]

If you do raid prog but refuse to do M+ then you are being carried. If you are just raid logging and putting no effort into improving your character then you are literally a burden on your group.

I think of it like this - It's a team sport and you refuse to turn up for practice each week before we play because you think you are better than everyone else even though you are overweight and never score.

What does everyone else think? We have a few people like this in my guild and it really pisses me off. It probably shouldn't but it honestly makes me feel like giving up when some of us are throwing everything we have at a boss whilst others may as well be afk. I know, find another guild. I just do not understand people like this and how little shame they must have.

Someone came here looking for validation on an opinion his guild didn't agree with. I do feel ya, had something like that happen in a guild I was in, I busted my ass to gear up, so all new drops went to the undergeared warlock, who then eventually out-geared me. I just found a new guild that wasn't so hell bent on progression. Trust me, you'll enjoy the game more.

[chiddie]

Context is everything here. Is the guild one of those that pushes to be top 50 in the world? Because if not, then realistically you're getting your panties twisted over nothing. Now, the only way i'd say otherwise is if those members are noticeably lower geared than the rest of your guild. As in everyones sitting at 240+ and they're the few just rolling up at under 233. If that is the case, then absolutely, at least show some tiny bit of effort out of respect to your teammates. Hell, you're wasting your own time pulling your group back. However if the difference isn't that stark, then all the ilvl in the world can only do so much for a guild's progression.

I'll put myself and my own guild up as an example. I play the game primarily to PvP. All my boxes are PvP until i'm fully kitted out. I'll do some keys for trinkets if my guildmates have the location I need and i'm online when they're talking about it, but specifically going out and pugging is way too cancerous for me given that you need to do all the other keys additionally to get the IO score needed to get into the groups in the first place. It just isn't worth my time or sanity to burn through all that stuff for minor upgrades. So i'm probably similar but not the same to those that piss you off. My ilvl is up there because i'm a high level PvPer, but my secondary stats aren't BiS optimal.

Do I feel shame? Not in the slightest. Why do you ask? Because of context. My guild raids twice a week for 3 hours a night. We're currently progressing on mythic Painsmith, and I can say without a doubt that there isn't a single attempt on any of the bosses in the entire raid where overall group DPS being 0.76% higher meant the difference between a kill and another wipe. 1/13 = 7.65%, my gear is a mix of mythic raid, heroic raid, and pvp and my sim weights have crit at 1.73 and vers at 1.55. So if I could magically swap 450 vers into crit, it is still extremely unlikely that it would boost my personal damage more than 10% if even that. The entire raid doing under 1% more damage isn't going to stop the wipe that happens because 4 people couldn't dodge spikes in the first Painsmith intermission. Or get the star target positioning incorrectly for the mass dispel bounce on Nerzhul. Or get the healer cds not lined up correctly to recover from chain pops on Soulrender. Or the moron dps that dropped a goop right in front of the Eyeball while swapping sides.

My guild ALWAYS lands their first kills when the group as a whole FINALLY AFTER WHAT FEELS LIKE THOUSANDS OF ATTEMPTS execute on raid mechanics for the entire fight. It isn't some dps race where we finally got the kill despite losing half our guys or pulling off fight duration records on our kills. It is NOT FAILING to mechanics. It took my guild 2 1/2 nights to get through the first Painsmith intermission with under 2 deaths. Working on making it there consistently and now getting to the 2nd intermission with that same number alive.

My guild is like the VAST MAJORITY of guilds. Held back by individuals flopping on personal responsibility mechanics. Dodge that swirl. Pull that brand out of the raid. Dodge that moving spike while not running in a ball's path. Healthstone/Defensive if you're under 50% when that raid damage is coming. Me having zero fun grinding for weeks to min/max my own gear's secondary stats or pull my overall ilvl from 243 to 245 does absolutely nothing to help my guild's frost mage with using one of his two ice blocks to save himself from certain death that results when he tunnel visions boss mechanics to squeeze out that extra frostbolt before having to move.

The race to world first guilds are actually the perfect examples of this. Obviously they do splits and feed gear and the like and getting as good as gear as they can get early absolutely helps them. They're racing after all. But they still EXECUTE on personal responsibility and because of personal ability they kill these bosses in way worse gear than the vast vast majority of people even start attempting them in. So if someone wants to come to me and try to shame me because I don't want to grind Other Side for years to get the Crit/Haste max ilvl m+ gloves instead of the Haste/Mastery ones I have from heroic for the 35 dps increase (yes I simmed them at 239vs246) in a 7.3k sim result, well my obvious answer is "ok, good luck in your recruitment of someone who can actually execute raid mechanics as reliably as I did."

All of this really seems like a second work, a work that also you pay for instead of being paid for.

No, thanks. There’s near to zero fun in playing like this and I know it because i raided hard from Vanilla to end TBC. When you do something because you “have to” instead of because you “want to” a game complete loses its “being a game” status.

Went back to Diablo 3 in May, didn’t look back since then and it’s the best choice I made gaming wise in the last years.

[Rammus]

If you do raid prog but refuse to do M+ then you are being carried. If you are just raid logging and putting no effort into improving your character then you are literally a burden on your group.

I think of it like this - It's a team sport and you refuse to turn up for practice each week before we play because you think you are better than everyone else even though you are overweight and never score.

What does everyone else think? We have a few people like this in my guild and it really pisses me off. It probably shouldn't but it honestly makes me feel like giving up when some of us are throwing everything we have at a boss whilst others may as well be afk. I know, find another guild. I just do not understand people like this and how little shame they must have.

I play in a guild that gets CE in past couple tiers and we still have 2 ppl in our main roster that don't do any m+ and generally put the minimum amount of effort. Personally it doesn't bother me, sure they are a bit behind on gear in comparison to the rest but as long as they don't mess mechanics and know their class it doesn't make that much of a difference.

This is only an issue for sub top 300 guilds most likely cause they struggle to reach dps/hps marks with lower gear, currently most players that are actively raiding are 245+ with maxed out shard set it is highly unlikely that you would hit a dps/hps wall in the raid with that kind of gear. Sure, more output will make the fights a bit easier but doesn't really matter that much in my eyes.

This is easily solveable with recruiting btw, when the competition gets higher these players will either bend and try to min max as much as they can or get benched if they get outperformed by other ppl.

[Aydinx2]

I feel like a lot of people are disagreeing with OP simply because they're feeling attacked.

[kamuimac]

If you do raid prog but refuse to do M+ then you are being carried. If you are just raid logging and putting no effort into improving your character then you are literally a burden on your group.

I think of it like this - It's a team sport and you refuse to turn up for practice each week before we play because you think you are better than everyone else even though you are overweight and never score.

What does everyone else think? We have a few people like this in my guild and it really pisses me off. It probably shouldn't but it honestly makes me feel like giving up when some of us are throwing everything we have at a boss whilst others may as well be afk. I know, find another guild. I just do not understand people like this and how little shame they must have.

seems like you are in wrong guild then

go and join more "pro " one .

- - - Updated - - -

did the vault system not eliminate weekly m+ for raiders?

it did but you can eaisly guess OP is in one of those 1-3/10 mythic guild and thiks that if people fam extensively m+ tehy would be now 7/10 M.

[Lolites]

Gone are the days of raid logging being an acceptable behaviour.

that is just not true...
being part of world first guild and only want to raidlog is not acceptable, being part of casual guild and olny raidlog is completely fine...
you just have to find likeminded people

[Amaterasu65]

If you do raid prog but refuse to do M+ then you are being carried. If you are just raid logging and putting no effort into improving your character then you are literally a burden on your group.

I think of it like this - It's a team sport and you refuse to turn up for practice each week before we play because you think you are better than everyone else even though you are overweight and never score.

What does everyone else think? We have a few people like this in my guild and it really pisses me off. It probably shouldn't but it honestly makes me feel like giving up when some of us are throwing everything we have at a boss whilst others may as well be afk. I know, find another guild. I just do not understand people like this and how little shame they must have.

Could you link me your SoD mythic logs? I wanna see the dedication and competence.

[Malania]

How do i get carried while maintaining 80-90% logs (to be fair thats easy on kyr arcane) ?

For CE guilds i get the point but half of my guild has no idea how dom sockets work and we still got aotc this week, all i wanted.

I have no comments on this, I just like your GDI avatar

[Vitinariy]

So to summarise, OP is frustrated because he happens to 'carry' someone in his raid?
Why go to the forums then? You either go and put in less effort or find another raid where everyone shares your mentality.
End of story.

[Mendzia]

I am not.
There is no M+ in TBC.

[Scarnage86]

As other have say, find another guild/raid with ppl with the same likemind.

Just to be correctly that is not a major problem for me. I was raidleding in CN and to use your word in better why:

"If you do raid prog but refuse to learn the fight then you are being carried. If you are just raid logging and putting no effort into improving personal gameplay performance then you are literally a burden on your group.

I think of it like this - It's a team sport and you refuse to put in max effort during play because you think (insert random excuses).

We have a few people like this in my guild and it really pisses me off. And it probably should to be honest!"

That can work for me.... but i'm old boomer raised by older raidleader boomer where "A dead dps, is a useless dps" "Good effort and respect gain u more loot/help" "being 1st in dps is just ur job" "do not care about number, just do things right" "if we do all right but we are short, that's a good wipe and progress" and on and on and on

[kamuimac]

As other have say, find another guild/raid with ppl with the same likemind.

Just to be correctly that is not a major problem for me. I was raidleding in CN and to use your word in better why:

"If you do raid prog but refuse to learn the fight then you are being carried. If you are just raid logging and putting no effort into improving personal gameplay performance then you are literally a burden on your group.

I think of it like this - It's a team sport and you refuse to put in max effort during play because you think (insert random excuses).

We have a few people like this in my guild and it really pisses me off. And it probably should to be honest!"

That can work for me....

good for you - but reality is most people learn by doing

so what if they watch 15 videos when untill they learn the mechanics by doing them they will likely fail .

thats why i always find it pointless to watch more then those 2 minute videos with general overlook of mechanics - you know that mechanic X can kill you , your dbm tells you its mechanic X you learn how to avoid it by doing it coupel of times.

nothing more is needed .

pls stop pretending raiding is rocket science. its scrypted fight that you need to learn how to follow such scrypt.

some learn faster (mythic raiders) , some learn slower (hc raiders ) , some never learn and they dont have to (normal/lfr raiders ) .

it functions this way for better part of last decade since MoP.

[Daedius]

You can have people with much lower ilevel that outperform better than better geared people...