I have a question about the morality of banning gold farmers and wow tolkens.

[mcnally86]

I was in another post about the selling of transmogs and wow tokens came up. The people who brought them up seemed to see them as no different from buying gold or services with cash. From a practical standpoint they are very different. They allow Blizzard to more carefully manage their own economy by letting them set artificial market prices and delete gold. I mean, why would facebook be pushing me to buy gold or pay 200$ USD (tokens not accepted as payment) for a raid clear if the wow tokens were functionally the same as gold buying. Violating the TOS seems to be worth the extra risk for a ton of players.

What I want to know is what people feel about the morality of Wow tolken?
In my mind if very different morally. Wow tolkens are not bitcoins. They have limited uses. No one is going to hold a hospital's data hostage for 1 millions dollars in WoW® Token.
From what I have seen, players are going to try and buy gold anyhow. This lets you let players trade in-game services with each-other. One player gets game time, another players gets a portion of that player's time in game. Like literately, my guild once bought our tank a game time card. And holy heck, how stressful is it to ban a gold seller? For some people not at all. For me quite a bit. I remember spending a full day killing gold farmers in vanilla. I thought they were just kids like me, except they were cheating by multi-boxing. I found out later these were likely Chinese slaves. Slaves who needed to make quota. I am pretty sure China can't run sweat shops on wow tokens nearly as easily as foreign currency.

I think if your game is good, people will always want to buy gold. I like Wow tokens because it lets people buy gold without letting gold sellers attach more real world value to in game currency then in-game rewards. It is also an easy way for me to check the opportunity cost of something on the BMAH.

Edit: Aww dag, I messed up the poll. The first option was supposed to be "WoW® Token is morally better than gold selling"

[Calfredd]

What's the difference between "the same" and "about the same"?

[mcnally86]

Yea, I messed that up. Is there a way to delete a thread and try again?

[Lochton]

The token is, from what I see, better than having swarms of gold sellers. It makes safe transactions, doesn't strip someone else's character, nor get you banned.

As well, this thread will most likely be closed due to the topic of gold sellers.

[shadowmatrix]

Players asked for a way to pay for their sub using in-game gold.
Players are the ones getting the gold from the tokens that sell.
Players are buy items and services from other players.
How the gold that comes from the token is used is being decided by the players.

Ultimate difference, the WOW token doesn't involve you playing Russian roulette with identity theft.

[Tommi]

Banning goldfarmers doesn't matter. They make so much money from it, and by the time an account gets banned, they have made the money back AND profit. It's a no lose situation from them.

I actually did an interview with one who was just a normal guy. He didn't know I was recording it, or playing dumb. It does give interesting insight into why goldfarmers do it. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1107414707

[mbit]

There was a american guy who studied chinese to work translator and played middleman for goldsites, when he graduated he got a real job and quit goldselling so he did an interview with i think markiplier? He said goldfarmers have agreements with mmo devs to establish a break even point. Devs ban so that gold farmers still earn enough to keep them motivated rebuying accounts. Both make money and devs get higher sale numbers. Cant verify obviously but i think it makes sense from a business perspective. Fanbase wont believe it anyway even if someone leaks it so no pr damage.

[Super Kami Dende]

The Token lets players avoid using shady websites and reduces Blizzards CS service getting spammed from account compromises as much.

[Alydael]

I was in another post about the selling of transmogs and wow tokens came up. The people who brought them up seemed to see them as no different from buying gold or services with cash. From a practical standpoint they are very different. They allow Blizzard to more carefully manage their own economy by letting them set artificial market prices and delete gold. I mean, why would facebook be pushing me to buy gold or pay 200$ USD (tokens not accepted as payment) for a raid clear.............

I think if your game is good, people will always want to buy gold. I like Wow tokens because it lets people buy gold without letting gold sellers attach more real world value to in game currency then in-game rewards. It is also an easy way for me to check the opportunity cost of something on the BMAH.

Edit: Aww dag, I messed up the poll. The first option was supposed to be "WoW® Token is morally better than gold selling"

If you are talking "morality," I don't either is really morally wrong. Robbing someone is morally wrong. These are actions in a video game we are talking about.....

If you wanted to knit pick it- the gold farmers are morally in the wrong. Blizz makes a game, the game has a virtual currency (gold). Blizz makes a way to buy it with real $$$. There is not a single thing morally wrong with that. If you don't want it (or don't "agree" with it)- don't buy it. Simple.

Blizz set up rules for their game they made. They call these rules the TOS. The gold farmers are violating the TOS. That puts them in the wrong. Simple.

[Niwes]

I was in another post about the selling of transmogs and wow tokens came up. The people who brought them up seemed to see them as no different from buying gold or services with cash. From a practical standpoint they are very different. They allow Blizzard to more carefully manage their own economy by letting them set artificial market prices and delete gold. I mean, why would facebook be pushing me to buy gold or pay 200$ USD (tokens not accepted as payment) for a raid clear if the wow tokens were functionally the same as gold buying. Violating the TOS seems to be worth the extra risk for a ton of players.

What I want to know is what people feel about the morality of Wow tolken?
In my mind if very different morally. Wow tolkens are not bitcoins. They have limited uses. No one is going to hold a hospital's data hostage for 1 millions dollars in WoW® Token.
From what I have seen, players are going to try and buy gold anyhow. This lets you let players trade in-game services with each-other. One player gets game time, another players gets a portion of that player's time in game. Like literately, my guild once bought our tank a game time card. And holy heck, how stressful is it to ban a gold seller? For some people not at all. For me quite a bit. I remember spending a full day killing gold farmers in vanilla. I thought they were just kids like me, except they were cheating by multi-boxing. I found out later these were likely Chinese slaves. Slaves who needed to make quota. I am pretty sure China can't run sweat shops on wow tokens nearly as easily as foreign currency.

I think if your game is good, people will always want to buy gold. I like Wow tokens because it lets people buy gold without letting gold sellers attach more real world value to in game currency then in-game rewards. It is also an easy way for me to check the opportunity cost of something on the BMAH.

Edit: Aww dag, I messed up the poll. The first option was supposed to be "WoW® Token is morally better than gold selling"

First:
Its Token, not Tolken.

Second:
Its called a smart cash grab system. Anything of the BS you wrote would be ever accurate (if even), when Blizzard not earns 7 Bugs for free, by doing nothing, for every Token every passing the AH. While completely controling the value and flow of gold in WoW. Thats why its a smart cash grab system. Beisdes that its just „giving more money to Blizz“ vs „giving a bit less money to gold sellers“. In the end its „giving money to someone for getting gold“. No clue what morality has to do with that.

Third:
There is no difference between gold sellers and Blizzard. Both earn money by selling gold ingame. Blizz makes sure, its their money. Its simply that Blizzard legalized gold selling that way and ensure that they earn 7 bugs for it. Its the same as to stop criminalizing Weed, but only sell it through government and put taxes on it. No clue, if thats morally good or bad.

Fourth:
Buying a Token and paying a boost grp with gold, to get a quick/fast chance of i.e. some Sylvanas drop is exactly the same as buying a lootbox to get the chance for some item. With the only difference, that you need an hour to play (to get carried), instead of just opening the lootbox. Again, i have no clue what buying or selling lootboxes has to do with morality.

Fifth:
Tbh: I have ZERO clue what even your intension, opinion or question is. To me, your english is bad as fuck and your text is hard to read (since i also do not speak native english). No clue what that whole thing is even about. So i simply quote Steve Danuser here: „morally grey“

[mbit]

If you are talking "morality," I don't either is really morally wrong. Robbing someone is morally wrong. These are actions in a video game we are talking about.....

If you wanted to knit pick it- the gold farmers are morally in the wrong. Blizz makes a game, the game has a virtual currency (gold). Blizz makes a way to buy it with real $$$. There is not a single thing morally wrong with that. If you don't want it (or don't "agree" with it)- don't buy it. Simple.

Blizz set up rules for their game they made. They call these rules the TOS. The gold farmers are violating the TOS. That puts them in the wrong. Simple.

Blizz sells cigarettes to addicts and gold farmers sell the nicotine patches.

[exochaft]

There was a american guy who studied chinese to work translator and played middleman for goldsites, when he graduated he got a real job and quit goldselling so he did an interview with i think markiplier? He said goldfarmers have agreements with mmo devs to establish a break even point. Devs ban so that gold farmers still earn enough to keep them motivated rebuying accounts. Both make money and devs get higher sale numbers. Cant verify obviously but i think it makes sense from a business perspective. Fanbase wont believe it anyway even if someone leaks it so no pr damage.

While I think one would obviously need hard proof for this sort of transaction (especially in relation to WoW and Blizz), such business practices aren't out of the ordinary in other ventures beyond gaming. It's essentially quid pro quo, but the real question comes down to whether the acts taking place or moral or not. I could see the rationale behind making such a decision between an MMO and gold sellers... doesn't mean I think the rationale would be a good one, as rationale without morality never leads to good things.

When it comes to the WoW token and the morality behind it, it's like the line in Rick and Morty: "That just sounds like slavery with extra steps." Instead of slavery, a WoW token is pay-to-win with extra steps... where Blizz makes a profit off of the transactions instead of the third-party vendors. While I understand the intent of trying to protect your players from being scammed while doing something illegal, making yourself the sole legal way to perform a bad activity and getting a profit off said activity isn't that much better. The WoW token (like many other systems and changes to the game) have serious long-term consequences, some of which could be worse than the original problem.

So how is it pay to win? Basically, you can buy gear and boosts and carries instantly with some real-world money. How is this different from just anyone buying gear/carries/etc. with the gold they make in the game and not through a WoW token? That's just it: using gold made through playing the game should be the only way to do so, as it takes time and effort. What the WoW token does is skip the time and effort to give you a ton of gold via a Blizzard-sanctioned RMT, instead of a 3rd party vendor where Blizz can't get a cut of the action.

Furthermore, it can have adverse effects on the gold economy. Granted, Blizz has already done a number on their gold economy over the last few expansions, but WoW tokens exacerbate the issue. It's very similar to how federal tuition assistance and subsidies work in the US when it comes to universities and colleges (or the relationship between the government's involvement with healthcare and insurance), where the institituions will increase their prices based upon the government funding because it's 'free' money, and the vicious cycle repeats itself and drives up the prices over time. In a similar way, the availability of WoW tokens will inflate the gold values because the system allows you to flood the game with so much gold. While the original blue post concerning the WoW tokens in WoD was fairly vague about the issue, Blizz can essentially just 'print money' for players via the WoW tokens regardless of how the price of the token is influences by the market. It's almost a form of quantitative easing, where the ones enacting the policy are the ones to blame for the issue.

Regardless, there's many nuances to this topic, but my firm belief is that the WoW token causes more harm than good. It's the same story with many of Blizz's decisions, as instead of tackling the hard issue head-on Blizz tends to go for the easy short-term solution that either doesn't fix the initial problem or makes a who new set of problems (or commonly both).

[mbit]

Furthermore, it can have adverse effects on the gold economy. Granted, Blizz has already done a number on their gold economy over the last few expansions, but WoW tokens exacerbate the issue. It's very similar to how federal tuition assistance and subsidies work in the US when it comes to universities and colleges (or the relationship between the government's involvement with healthcare and insurance), where the institituions will increase their prices based upon the government funding because it's 'free' money, and the vicious cycle repeats itself and drives up the prices over time. In a similar way, the availability of WoW tokens will inflate the gold values because the system allows you to flood the game with so much gold. While the original blue post concerning the WoW tokens in WoD was fairly vague about the issue, Blizz can essentially just 'print money' for players via the WoW tokens regardless of how the price of the token is influences by the market. It's almost a form of quantitative easing, where the ones enacting the policy are the ones to blame for the issue.

This is likely the biggest problem with allowing devs to monetize gold selling. If you can make money from gold selling you are incentivized to create gold sinks to increase revenue. A simple recent example would be legendaries. Its the first time you have to pay a significant amount of gold for a core item. Many here would disagree that its a lot of gold but you have to consider that you are not normal if you are here . Blizz confirmed themselves that normal players don't even visit forums. So rather think about how often guild mates complained about having not even enough gold to buy an enchant and now all these players could choose no legendary or buy token.

[mojusk]

i got split opinions about tokens.
on one hand i like playing the game for free, which i have since it was introduced.
on the other hand i dont like what its doing to the game.
it creates a indirect semi pay to win. you can buy mythic boe gear and legendaries on the AH and m+/raid/glad boosts with a swipe of your moms credit card.
it creates a sort of inflation, not actual inflation cuz a token causes more gold to go out than in. BUT it still feels like inflation when you can conjure currency out of thin air.
boosts have become alot more accesible for casuals if theyre willing to pay irl money for a token, which is why theres a massive increase in boosting since the introduction of tokens.
some say that it decrease the amount of shady gold sellers and bot gold farmers, which is untrue.

bottom line is that id rather see it removed than staying.

[deenman]

there is no morality in it,its a video game

[Empower]

People want to cheat. You can try to slice it a dozen different ways but it's what it comes down to. A paid cheat code.

[WinningOne]

I was in another post about the selling of transmogs and wow tokens came up. The people who brought them up seemed to see them as no different from buying gold or services with cash. From a practical standpoint they are very different. They allow Blizzard to more carefully manage their own economy by letting them set artificial market prices and delete gold. I mean, why would facebook be pushing me to buy gold or pay 200$ USD (tokens not accepted as payment) for a raid clear if the wow tokens were functionally the same as gold buying. Violating the TOS seems to be worth the extra risk for a ton of players.

What I want to know is what people feel about the morality of Wow tolken?
In my mind if very different morally. Wow tolkens are not bitcoins. They have limited uses. No one is going to hold a hospital's data hostage for 1 millions dollars in WoW® Token.
From what I have seen, players are going to try and buy gold anyhow. This lets you let players trade in-game services with each-other. One player gets game time, another players gets a portion of that player's time in game. Like literately, my guild once bought our tank a game time card. And holy heck, how stressful is it to ban a gold seller? For some people not at all. For me quite a bit. I remember spending a full day killing gold farmers in vanilla. I thought they were just kids like me, except they were cheating by multi-boxing. I found out later these were likely Chinese slaves. Slaves who needed to make quota. I am pretty sure China can't run sweat shops on wow tokens nearly as easily as foreign currency.

I think if your game is good, people will always want to buy gold. I like Wow tokens because it lets people buy gold without letting gold sellers attach more real world value to in game currency then in-game rewards. It is also an easy way for me to check the opportunity cost of something on the BMAH.

Edit: Aww dag, I messed up the poll. The first option was supposed to be "WoW® Token is morally better than gold selling"

There is no morality involved. This is a video game not church.

[mcnally86]

First:
Its Token, not Tolken.

Second:
Its called a smart cash grab system. Anything of the BS you wrote would be ever accurate (if even), when Blizzard not earns 7 Bugs for free, by doing nothing, for every Token every passing the AH. While completely controling the value and flow of gold in WoW. Thats why its a smart cash grab system. Beisdes that its just „giving more money to Blizz“ vs „giving a bit less money to gold sellers“. In the end its „giving money to someone for getting gold“. No clue what morality has to do with that.

Third:
There is no difference between gold sellers and Blizzard. Both earn money by selling gold ingame. Blizz makes sure, its their money. Its simply that Blizzard legalized gold selling that way and ensure that they earn 7 bugs for it. Its the same as to stop criminalizing Weed, but only sell it through government and put taxes on it. No clue, if thats morally good or bad.

Fourth:
Buying a Token and paying a boost grp with gold, to get a quick/fast chance of i.e. some Sylvanas drop is exactly the same as buying a lootbox to get the chance for some item. With the only difference, that you need an hour to play (to get carried), instead of just opening the lootbox. Again, i have no clue what buying or selling lootboxes has to do with morality.

Fifth:
Tbh: I have ZERO clue what even your intension, opinion or question is. To me, your english is bad as fuck and your text is hard to read (since i also do not speak native english). No clue what that whole thing is even about. So i simply quote Steve Danuser here: „morally grey“

"Fifth: I don't know what is going on but I really want you to know I don't have strong opinions about it"

- - - Updated - - -

There is no morality involved. This is a video game not church.

Fascinating take. So robbery is fine if committed outside of a church?

- - - Updated - - -

there is no morality in it,its a video game

I am not talking about just a video game. I am talking about money. Money is a store of labor. A store of your life. Based on your profile pic I think your life may not contain morality though.

[potis]

Why does this need a new post every month.

Token fixes a legit problem while designed in a way to give them even more profit, its a win/win for them.

They save money from having less Customer Support workers since not as many people are getting hacked 24/7 by gold selling sites (among other things), they make more money passively also.

And its something that has been happening since forever, in every game that had systems of gold.

The only thing the token has introduced as a problem, is the same thing D3 auction house introduced as a problem, its completely different when a smaller amount of players has the knowledge of things happening in the background, and when its brought to the front from everyone trying to get a piece.

D3 auction house was a terrible system to combat the RMT trading that was happening either way in D2 Battle.net, but 0.1% doing it, is completely different to 100% having knowledge of it.

Token is the same, boosts for gold/RMT were happening since Vanilla days, but its completely different when the knowledge and the way to purchase it is out there.

[panda040]

This has been hashed out time and time again.

The WoW token is blizzard endorsement of making the game pay to win, except now they get a slice of the gold selling pie.

If the WoW token was soulbound it wouldn't be a problem.

The excuse of "oh we will have tons of more gold sellers if it wasn't there!" is a cop out for poor policing of ingame activities.

1.remove the wow token or make it soulbound

2. actually crack down on gold farmers

3. actually ban players that are buying gold with real money

this will never happen because blizzard will lose money AND players that pay a sub would get banned for buying gold

it is what it is, wow is pay to win now, with the exception of.... basically rank #1 in pvp? anyways I try and ignore it