Should the horde be made to pay for the crimes of their leaders?

[Lolites]

Countries do it all the time when the losing side loses, they are made to pay some sort of war tax.

well, its kinda late to "Add" for older wars, but both faction wars in mop and in bfa horde didnt lost, in mop horde rebeled, and garrosh loyalist lost (not sure if any of them even survived), and bfa ended with armistice, so no looser or winner at all

[Makabreska]

not to worry. good chance that it will be genns turn next time around. (like for real who else is left to start the next horde/alliance war?)

Fat chance. Genn already said his main beef is with Sylvi. Also, I don't think Blizz will do a big faction conflict ever again.

[Vakna]

The tiredness of the whole racial conflict makes me say no. Leave it, move on, let the Horde be ruled by a council now so the power never again rests with a single crazy.

However, I also think that the whole "just following orders" mantra is no excuse. If you can't just the morality of an order for yourself you don't belong in a military. If a commander orders you to commit an obscene warcrime like murdering civilians and children and you obey that order, you should be punished on the same level as the commander that issued it.

No amount of word spaghetti will ever justify murdering children. You have a brain, you aren't a robot, refuse the order.

[Hellobolis]

Fat chance. Genn already said his main beef is with Sylvi. Also, I don't think Blizz will do a big faction conflict ever again.

any particular reason? cause you can set your clock for the bi-expansion "bring the war back in warcraft" faction conflict.

[Beefhammer]

You will have to erase blood elves and nightborne first then.

Fine with me. Elves are a cancer to Azeroth.

[Makabreska]

any particular reason? cause you can set your clock for the bi-expansion "bring the war back in warcraft" faction conflict.

Dunno, people/writers being tired? There is no real need for big conflicts any more, BfA aftermath can fuel smaller conflicts each expansion for years. And to people that want war: we get a war against xpac antagonists every damn xpac. But we actually have solid indicator of moving away from AvH, the Night Warrior conclusion with Elune.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Anyway it's obvious that the Horde will never face real karma for its actions under Garrosh and Sylvanas, when even after the Second War they had a punishement really light for all the crimes and atrocities they commited both on Draenor and Azeroth, and that the Draenei never got any justice or closure for the sufferings and genocide they endured at the Horde's hands.

[Hellobolis]

Anyway it's obvious that the Horde will never face real karma for its actions under Garrosh and Sylvanas, when even after the Second War they had a punishement really light for all the crimes and atrocities they commited both on Draenor and Azeroth, and that the Draenei never got any justice or closure for the sufferings and genocide they endured at the Horde's hands.

the one after 2nd war was actually pretty understandable. real good timing for the orcs to run out of demon juice and play a sympathy card.

the one after MoP was bit too much of a freebie though, you'd think the alliance would push at least some advantage in exchange for peace.

[Makabreska]

the one after 2nd war was actually pretty understandable. real good timing for the orcs to run out of demon juice and play a sympathy card.

the one after MoP was bit too much of a freebie though, you'd think the alliance would push at least some advantage in exchange for peace.

Horde was very lucky in MoP when Garrosh went "Orcs only", and after that focused mostly on Kor'kron. It gave entire Horde a Get Out of Jail Free card. Not that there would be any jail for them, of course.

[sighy]

Dunno, people/writers being tired? There is no real need for big conflicts any more, BfA aftermath can fuel smaller conflicts each expansion for years. And to people that want war: we get a war against xpac antagonists every damn xpac. But we actually have solid indicator of moving away from AvH, the Night Warrior conclusion with Elune.

Very well recieved that one was. I don't think people are tired of the concept, but rather of the lackluster execution. The audience is clearly emotionally invested in relationships between the races, factions and characters, if they care about the story of course and as Shadowlands has shown pulling a new cosmic threat out of the writer's anus on last minute lead to the biggest bomb in wow's history and it's not even done plummeting. That said i don't expect them to cater toward the bloodthirsty fans who want to drink out of the skulls of the virtual characters. You know the type.

Ultimately what comes next needs to be a properly constructed story first and foremost. The fans shouldn't be left in the dark about who, what or why? Don't need to know every detail, but a basic understanding of the group/individual is absolutely necessary to build investment and more importantly stakes.

[Super Dickmann]

Applying collective guilt and putting the Horde into occupation so it can break out later would have been a good angle to go for after Mists. Give the Alliance a win, let the Horde show back up, shake up the status quo. Not so much after BFA given how the power balance was a lot different.

It's a story the game hasn't done before through WoW and it would be entirely in keeping with the limitations of the setting. Swap some guards, make it a side plot, have the Horde reform when the Alliance begins to strain under fighting the baddie alone, classic stuff.

[Syegfryed]

I mean, sure. If you feel it excuses in ANY WAY the Horde doings decade after that. It just boggles my mind how it's always put next to sizzling corpses of nelf citizens burned in service of Great Bad. Fun fact, average players don't even know Taurajo ever existed, all they see is Horde the aggressor and killed civilians from BfA. That faction provoked two major conflicts, produced two main raid bosses and crapton of secondaries to no consequences. Nuff said. But hey, muh Taurajo!

who said a thing about "excuses"? is about how both factions did shit and they will not "pay for their crimes", its not relevant who did things in a big or small scale, if we start to tracing back things will be going back until the creation of the universe.

you talk like "muh horde always bring up muh taurujo" but alliance cry about the horde invasion back in warcraft 1-2 to this very day, despite they being influenced by demons and most people who partake the invasion are years dead by now.

Yes, avarge players don't know about Taurujo exactly because the problem i said, about blizz writers whitewashing the alliance crimes and putting then under the rug, while highlighting what bad the horde did to move the plot with a shit story. they can make the horde bad guys and it does not matter if we complain about it, but they can't make the alliance the bad guys because people will scream out loud in forums about how that is not the real alliance and things will be stagnated like we have now.

What faction provoked two major conflicts? remind you, the war in cataclysm was provoked by the alliance, of course this is also swept under the rug because "evil garrosh" but its not retconed yet that it was Varian that started the war and the aliance who attacked first.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyway it's obvious that the Horde will never face real karma for its actions under Garrosh and Sylvanas, when even after the Second War they had a punishement really light for all the crimes and atrocities they commited both on Draenor and Azeroth, and that the Draenei never got any justice or closure for the sufferings and genocide they endured at the Horde's hands.

ah yes, the concentration camps, where they face inhuman conditions, famine, forced to fight as gladiators and other many crimes you can usually find in slavery, that punishment also extended to their children, who had no hand in the war, was pretty light

this is the kind of shenanigans alliance players talk, unbelievable.

[DatToffer]

ah yes, the concentration camps, where they face inhuman conditions, famine, forced to fight as gladiators and other many crimes you can usually find in slavery, that punishment also extended to their children, who had no hand in the war, was pretty light

this is the kind of shenanigans alliance players talk, unbelievable.

Makes me want to roleplay an orc so he could argue the Alliance didn't win the war.

"If they had won, you'd know. Because you'd be parked like livestock."

[Makabreska]

who said a thing about "excuses"? is about how both factions did shit and they will not "pay for their crimes", its not relevant who did things in a big or small scale, if we start to tracing back things will be going back until the creation of the universe.

you talk like "muh horde always bring up muh taurujo" but alliance cry about the horde invasion back in warcraft 1-2 to this very day, despite they being influenced by demons and most people who partake the invasion are years dead by now.

Yes, avarge players don't know about Taurujo exactly because the problem i said, about blizz writers whitewashing the alliance crimes and putting then under the rug, while highlighting what bad the horde did to move the plot with a shit story. they can make the horde bad guys and it does not matter if we complain about it, but they can't make the alliance the bad guys because people will scream out loud in forums about how that is not the real alliance and things will be stagnated like we have now.

What faction provoked two major conflicts? remind you, the war in cataclysm was provoked by the alliance, of course this is also swept under the rug because "evil garrosh" but its not retconed yet that it was Varian that started the war and the aliance who attacked first.

- - - Updated - - -



ah yes, the concentration camps, where they face inhuman conditions, famine, forced to fight as gladiators and other many crimes you can usually find in slavery, that punishment also extended to their children, who had no hand in the war, was pretty light

this is the kind of shenanigans alliance players talk, unbelievable.

Holy shit! And here I thought these hardcore Horde apologetics were extinct after BfA. Oh well, here we go again:

1. Orcs drunk demonic blood WILLINGLY, and then went to town on Draenei and Azeroth, slaughtering entire crowds. Being under influence gives them ZERO excuse. And on top of that, they drunk the blood TWICE, with Grom repeating the act in Warcraft 3, knowing perfectly what is going to happen.

2. Alliance starting Cata conflict? Fucking please! Warmong Garrosh went 180° then moment he landed on Northrend and quickly started making aggressive moves during Cata, cuz "Horde deserves these lands" and whatnot. Oh, and ofc Theramore. But hey "valuable strategic target" amirite?

3. Yes dude, Alliance should not put Orcs in camps and be nice to the race that invaded their planet UNPROVOKED and started sacking towns, killing civilians etc. And then y'all wonder why Varian mean, when he was there as a child at the sacking of SW.

All in all this is some next level insolence to call Alliance players butt hurt, when it's Horde that keeps screaming "Siege of SW when???", bringing up Taurajo as ANY kind of counterbalance to what happened in BfA while crying why are they being painted as villains all the time.

[VladlTutushkin]

It would be a twist I'll grant you that much, but it wouldn't be very good and would go directly against the established characterisation of the Aliance, which unfortunately is "Anduin knows best! We're anime protagonists!".

My point in that comment was that the Aliance was not in a realistic position to do that according to the narrative, unlike the Allies, who saw the Axis surrender unconditionally, at the end of WW1. So even IF Anduin went completely 180, on his eternal optimist peacemonger character it wouldn't end well for him, because the only consequences to be had there are either tolerated or self inflicted by the Horde. (It's what it is not what I'd have preferred, at any rate)

What i am saying is that Alliance should have kept fighting, until Horde’s surrender was unconditional and final. Because otherwise it will be just another Teldrassil a few years later. You either kill the rabid beast or die trying, you dont let it go because it cant conquer its own nature - it will come back to attack again.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean... You do know that Germany was sliced in two, East and West between the allies and the soviets ?

And that Japan was occupied by the US who directed their economic and social reforms ? Using their unions to overthrow the feudal leaders, then disbanding those unions when they started to turn commies ?

Not saying we should apply those real life things to the warcraft universe though. I don't believe for one second that the Alliance has any capacity to impose anything on the Horde. Just like I don't believe the Night elves actually having the capacity to prevent the Horde from passing their lands.



Outstanding move. Very gymnastic.

Night elves have as much capacity for anything as plot allows. The moment writers get off their horde coolaid situation will change again.

Its funny how people are trying to shut the night elf fans up with “you were doomed to lose” while ignoring how WoW runs on rule of cool and has zero ground under its victories or losses.

- - - Updated - - -

where are you picking that numbers? Or its not impotant, so we could say, like 10 MILLIONS of NElves died that night? If I recall there was like 982 or so.
Not excuses burning, but making it like total genocide of NElves, come on. And for that they are bringing them back from ardenweald (mostly confirmed).

1) They went on a length to explain how it ended up as genocide.

2) Not confirmed in the slightest.

[DatToffer]

Night elves have as much capacity for anything as plot allows. The moment writers get off their horde coolaid situation will change again.

Its funny how people are trying to shut the night elf fans up with “you were doomed to lose” while ignoring how WoW runs on rule of cool and has zero ground under its victories or losses.

Why summon the power of "This is a work of fiction !" now when it could have avoided this whole debate ?

[Syegfryed]

Holy shit! And here I thought these hardcore Horde apologetics were extinct after BfA. Oh well, here we go again:

1. Orcs drunk demonic blood WILLINGLY, and then went to town on Draenei and Azeroth, slaughtering entire crowds. Being under influence gives them ZERO excuse. And on top of that, they drunk the blood TWICE, with Grom repeating the act in Warcraft 3, knowing perfectly what is going to happen.

1 - willingly drinking something they not knew what it was and that would make then slaves driving then nuts, lets not forget about it
2 - Having their minds consumed with bloodlust that they could not do NOTHING about it, it explained many times how they were not in compltely control with Saurfaung saying many of the orcs perished when they were finally free.
3 - Only Grom and some of the warsng clan drink demon blood in ashenvale, you are trying to pain like the whole race did as a fallacy

And again, most of the orcs that did 1, and 2 are DEAD, you want to punish the children for the sins of their fathers.

2. Alliance starting Cata conflict? Fucking please! Warmong Garrosh went 180° then moment he landed on Northrend and quickly started making aggressive moves during Cata, cuz "Horde deserves these lands" and whatnot. Oh, and ofc Theramore. But hey "valuable strategic target" amirite?

yeah sure, Garrosh start the conflict in wtlk because he wanted nortrend to be horde lands LUL, and of course you forget how both factions attack each other back in wtlk and the alliance was already attacking the horde before, they bombed an entire tauren tribe out of the map, and you want to say Garrosh was being the warmonger back then ROFL

3. Yes dude, Alliance should not put Orcs in camps and be nice to the race that invaded their planet UNPROVOKED and started sacking towns, killing civilians etc. And then y'all wonder why Varian mean, when he was there as a child at the sacking of SW.

Mind you, MEdivh help bring the orcs here, and again, making the children guilty for the crimes of their fathers and thinking this is fine.

All in all this is some next level insolence to call Alliance players butt hurt, when it's Horde that keeps screaming "Siege of SW when???", bringing up Taurajo as ANY kind of counterbalance to what happened in BfA while crying why are they being painted as villains all the time.

Who the hell is saying is a counterbalance? again, using the strawman here, it is pointed to show how both factions commit "crimes" against each other, because they are at fucking war, and they will not be "punished" that is just a childish way of think.

[Hellobolis]

1. Orcs drunk demonic blood WILLINGLY, and then went to town on Draenei and Azeroth, slaughtering entire crowds. Being under influence gives them ZERO excuse. And on top of that, they drunk the blood TWICE, with Grom repeating the act in Warcraft 3, knowing perfectly what is going to happen.

wait what. are you saying the internment camps were pre-emptive punishment for war3?

[VladlTutushkin]

Why summon the power of "This is a work of fiction !" now when it could have avoided this whole debate ?

Because only one thing is certain about military in WoW - nothing matters but devs biases. Band of drunks with broken bottles will triumph over a disciplined and fully armed regiment.

Same as largest fortress will collapse to a single rookie infiltrator.

So again, the sole reason Teldrassil even happened was because Blizz suck on horde coolaid harder the Sasha Grey on a veiner.

[Okacz]

I would not support any further wars between the Horde and Alliance. It's overdone and stupid at this point. Give us some actual, meaningful peace for once.

And for people saying, "bUt ItS wArCraFT", the war doesn't have to be between the Horde and Alliance. There are, y'know, other groups out there. Lots of 'em, in fact.

Still if 2 factions, "reds" and "blues", are still supposed to be a thing, they should be made more distinct. Right now the only thing different about Ally and Hordes are the fact that the latters capital is mud hats covered in spikes. Check out the pre-expansion event, after all the Thralls etc were sent to SL - who sends you to Icecrown to deal with stuff? Lor'Themar, Valeera, Calia, all variations of humans.

Imo making the "reds" just a bit more of assholes than "blues" without writing it down to corrupt leader we need to stand together against would be cool. You know, have Horde be the Cobra Kai to Mr Miyagi Alliance.