You decide: New class, Class skins, 4th specs, or New combos

[Ielenia]

Nothing you said make sense.
Of course it matters, they even bolded the sentence "PANTHEON OF LIFE". They're hinting at it featuring sometime in the future. And, as Elune is established as a Life being, she's going to appear there as one of the Eternals.

Or not. This would be far from the first time Blizzard "sets something up" only to forget it exists. Again, Elune's only relevance is right now with the 'wrath of Elune/night warrior' thing that is apparently being brought to an end in this expansion.

It means you were under the black moon in darkshore during the Night Warrior ritual. Do you get special abilities alongside, like Tyrande does? Do any of the Night elves who get black eyes have Tyrande-like capabilities? It's just a side effect of the ritual.

Does the other night elves that can wear blindfolds gained any of Illidan's abilities?

-_-

Look at their abilities.

Right.
Tyrande in HotS:
• Hunter's Mark: the WC3 PotM does not have that ability.
• Light of Elune: the WC3 PotM does not have that ability.
• Sentinel: sends an owl in a straight line. The WC3 PotM does have an owl ability, but it is controllable, persists, and does not damage anything or anyone.
• Lunar Flare: the WC3 PotM does not have that ability.

Tyrande in WC3:
• Hide: HotS Tyrande does not have that ability.
• Searing Arrow: HotS Tyrande does not have that ability.
• Trueshot Aura: HotS Tyrande's talent does not work like the WC3 PotM.

[Triceron]

That's where we come into a problem.
Currently, Tyrande have been shown to ranged DPS, Melee DPS heal. So, we don't really know what role exactly they are going for.

That's fine, because we're talking about representing POTM as a class, and DPS is what we do know they're known for.

Again, I don't see the problem with having a Hunter skin that has visual representation of Sentinel Shots and Starfall. We're not looking to adapt healer-centric gameplay to the Hunter here, we're representing a POTM DPS playstyle that isn't covered at all. If we're talking about it being a Healer spec, then POTM never had that to begin with. Even with HOTS, Tyrande's only heal is Light of Elune, while the rest of her kit is based on utility and support.


The argument of 'we don't know exactly what they're going for' wouldn't apply any more than to a theoretical Demon Hunter class that 'needs to have the Hunt' or a theoretical Brewmaster that 'needs to have Wandering Keg'. It's a bit of a stretched goalpost considering these abilities are completely absent from Warcraft 3, and frankly WC3 is what defines what these heroes were. It's not like we look at the WC3 POTM in retrospect and say 'OMG it's missing Heal spells and group stealth, this is not a POTM at all!'. It has pure DPS-oriented abilities, and that is exactly what a POTM is.

[Three Faced Goddess]

Elune is part of the entire realm. One of several eternals of the pantheon of Life. That's what they've been hinting at. pay closer attention to the lore direction.



It's a tribute -_-
Never said it made you into a Demon Hunter.
You'd have to be crazy not to notice it.



Huh? Shamans have Feral spirit.
Or, do you mean the WC3 unit? Because Thrall represents the Farseer.



-_-

Tyrande has Light of Elune because she is a PotM. If you didn't get it, HotS characters are meant to expand upon those WC3 units.



Monks have other keg abilities. So, while not all kegs are represented, there is keg representation. In contrast, if you leave out PotM healing abilities then there's no healing representation at all.



Some of WC3 is outdated, that's why you don't see certain abilities carried over to HotS, like Searing Arrow. We can't take WC3 at face value, because while Dark Rangers, for example, had Black Arrow which raised an undead minion back then, this is probably not the case anymore.



Those are little details. He still summons a wolf. And you can sort of get that look with Elemental Spirits.



And new abilities.

You mean Sylvana's HoTs abilities that were recently given to Dark Rangers like Withering Fire, Wailing arrow and one from out of ass-air Shadowburn shot? If I've missed anything please tell me.

[Zigrifid]

I would love some new combos,im waiting for years on panda paladins :P the MoP CM gear looks awesome on female pandas :P

[Shadowferal]

"...the Winter Queen refer to a certain life-bound entity as her sister... this apparent counterpart took up a similar position in what we must hypothesize to be a PANTHEON OF LIFE". .

Hmm...that's from a book? I may not like how everything pretty much went to shitsville, but I am fond of reading the pieces of this stuff...and looking upon the artwork.

[username993720]

Or not. This would be far from the first time Blizzard "sets something up" only to forget it exists. Again, Elune's only relevance is right now with the 'wrath of Elune/night warrior' thing that is apparently being brought to an end in this expansion.

You're short sighted.
It's in a book, not some vague text in-game.

Does the other night elves that can wear blindfolds gained any of Illidan's abilities?

They are Demon Hunters:
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_demon_hunters

Are any of them Night Warriors?:
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Arm...k_Moon#Members

Right.
Tyrande in HotS:
• Hunter's Mark: the WC3 PotM does not have that ability.
• Light of Elune: the WC3 PotM does not have that ability.
• Sentinel: sends an owl in a straight line. The WC3 PotM does have an owl ability, but it is controllable, persists, and does not damage anything or anyone.
• Lunar Flare: the WC3 PotM does not have that ability.

Tyrande in WC3:
• Hide: HotS Tyrande does not have that ability.
• Searing Arrow: HotS Tyrande does not have that ability.
• Trueshot Aura: HotS Tyrande's talent does not work like the WC3 PotM.

That's what expanding means.

Hide is Shadowmeld, shared across all female Night elven units (so, it's not a PotM thing).
Scout is Sentinel. Both summon owls to reveal hidden targets.
Searing Arrows is gone. Rendering it irrelevant.
Trushot Aura is there in both versions.
Starfall is there in both versions.
It doesn't matter if they don't operate the same as the WC3 ones, because that game came out more than a decade earlier. That's the whole point of these takes on older units - refreshing and updating them.

That's fine, because we're talking about representing POTM as a class, and DPS is what we do know they're known for.

Again, I don't see the problem with having a Hunter skin that has visual representation of Sentinel Shots and Starfall. We're not looking to adapt healer-centric gameplay to the Hunter here, we're representing a POTM DPS playstyle that isn't covered at all. If we're talking about it being a Healer spec, then POTM never had that to begin with. Even with HOTS, Tyrande's only heal is Light of Elune, while the rest of her kit is based on utility and support.

Shadowstalk heals affected targets.
Mark of Mending causes her attacks against marked targets to heal nearby allies.
Elune's Chosen makes her attacks heal an ally.

The argument of 'we don't know exactly what they're going for' wouldn't apply any more than to a theoretical Demon Hunter class that 'needs to have the Hunt' or a theoretical Brewmaster that 'needs to have Wandering Keg'. It's a bit of a stretched goalpost considering these abilities are completely absent from Warcraft 3, and frankly WC3 is what defines what these heroes were. It's not like we look at the WC3 POTM in retrospect and say 'OMG it's missing Heal spells and group stealth, this is not a POTM at all!'. It has pure DPS-oriented abilities, and that is exactly what a POTM is.

You're talking about a 20 year old game. Some of these abilities are obsolete. It is better to base it off of a more recent interpretation of the unit. And still, it doesn't guarantee it will all be accounted for. But, you'd still need to account for general outlines like healing, stealthing, revealing, ranged attacks, lunar spells and such.

You mean Sylvana's HoTs abilities that were recently given to Dark Rangers like Withering Fire, Wailing arrow and one from out of ass-air Shadowburn shot? If I've missed anything please tell me.

Shadowburn is used by many Dark Ranger NPCs.
I'm talking about her raid abilities.

Hmm...that's from a book? I may not like how everything pretty much went to shitsville, but I am fond of reading the pieces of this stuff...and looking upon the artwork.

And noticing how they're hinting at a possible Lifelands expansion?

[Triceron]

Hide is Shadowmeld, shared across all female Night elven units (so, it's not a PotM thing).
Scout is Sentinel. Both summon owls to reveal hidden targets.
Searing Arrows is gone. Rendering it irrelevant.
Trushot Aura is there in both versions.
Starfall is there in both versions.
It doesn't matter if they don't operate the same as the WC3 ones, because that game came out more than a decade earlier. That's the whole point of these takes on older units - refreshing and updating them.

So all of this can be covered by Hunter Class Skin. And like you said, it doesn't matter if they don't operate the same as the WC3 ones.

You're talking about a 20 year old game. Some of these abilities are obsolete. It is better to base it off of a more recent interpretation of the unit.

And Hunter Class Skin is an interpretation. That you don't particularly like it doesn't make it any different than any other interpretation.


Why would you point at Tyrande and suggest all her abilities need represented in order to recognize a WC3-sourced Priestess of the Moon class for WoW? That'd be like suggesting Thralls Feral Spirit needs to be represented because he's a Shaman, or Yrel's Vindication and Sacred Ground need to be represented because she's a Paladin, or Chen's Wandering Keg needs to be in the game because he's a Brewmaster. HotS and WoW both source WC3 and they both interpret them differently in different games. They're not exactly parallels of each other. Even if certain heroes in HOTS are based on WoW classes, it's not mutually exclusive nor does it work the other way around where the WoW class has to then represent all abilities found in HOTS.

Rehgar is a close interpretation of the WoW/WC3 Shaman. Thrall is a loose interpretation of the WoW/WC3 Shaman; his variations of Farseer abilities are unique to him and not found in any WC3 or WOW class. Tyrande may be a POTM, but she's clearly a loose interpretation of a WC3 POTM. She has abilities that aren't found in WC3 or WoW. The ONLY ability she has in common with WC3/WoW POTM is Starfall. Tyrande does not have Searing Arrow, Trueshot Aura or Scout as an owl pet. The WoW Hunter already does, on top of having an AoE ability that rains projectiles from the sky.

[Uriel]

I voted other.

I vote for a enjoyable game, back to the roots with less borrowed power.

Rather polish what is already there than introduce new halfassed systems.

Demonhunter still lack a 3rd spec

[sam86]

They just didn't have that many options.

they did, they easily did! they can easily and very simply NOT use any cow in paladin campaign or class hall, done, now all cows in paladin campaign are just pure gameplay purpose, heck they did that in priest class hall, there is no holy cows there (or disc or shadow) if i remember right
they used cows on purpose to spit on lore face not for any other reason

[CiccioBello]

I think the best solution is to review many of the specs already in the game instead of introducing something new.
Many specs now have too old and outdated gameplay.
It would be nice, from my point of view, that the blizz rethink some specs in a profound way such as the rogue, the feral druid, the wizard etc.
In my opinion, the whole talent system should also be reviewed in depth.
Honestly, with the next exp (always if there will be), having a new class but also having several broken specs doesn't excite me very much.
It makes no sense to add a new class if the whole system doesn't work (class design, talent system and the different borrowed powers)

[username993720]

So all of this can be covered by Hunter Class Skin. And like you said, it doesn't matter if they don't operate the same as the WC3 ones.

All of these - yes.
But, the healing aspect of HotS would be missing (specific abilities or not).

And Hunter Class Skin is an interpretation. That you don't particularly like it doesn't make it any different than any other interpretation.

As long as it can heal (alongside other things), then it would be a true interpretation.

Why would you point at Tyrande and suggest all her abilities need represented in order to recognize a WC3-sourced Priestess of the Moon class for WoW? That'd be like suggesting Thralls Feral Spirit needs to be represented because he's a Shaman, or Yrel's Vindication and Sacred Ground need to be represented because she's a Paladin, or Chen's Wandering Keg needs to be in the game because he's a Brewmaster. HotS and WoW both source WC3 and they both interpret them differently in different games. They're not exactly parallels of each other. Even if certain heroes in HOTS are based on WoW classes, it's not mutually exclusive nor does it work the other way around where the WoW class has to then represent all abilities found in HOTS.

We're talking about class additions. Let's look at the Demon Hunter, for example, which came out after Illidan's addition to HotS:

Which Metamorphosis did they choose to go with? was it the WC3 version or the HotS version?

WC3
Transforms the Demon Hunter into a powerful demon with a ranged attack.

HotS
Transform into Demon Form at the target location, dealing 46 damage in the area.

WoW
Leap into the air and land with explosive force, dealing Chaos damage to enemies within 8 yds. Upon landing, you are transformed into a hellish demon for 30 sec.

Seems like they went with the latter.

Rehgar is a close interpretation of the WoW/WC3 Shaman. Thrall is a loose interpretation of the WoW/WC3 Shaman; his variations of Farseer abilities are unique to him and not found in any WC3 or WOW class. Tyrande may be a POTM, but she's clearly a loose interpretation of a WC3 POTM. She has abilities that aren't found in WC3 or WoW. The ONLY ability she has in common with WC3/WoW POTM is Starfall. Tyrande does not have Searing Arrow, Trueshot Aura or Scout as an owl pet. The WoW Hunter already does, on top of having an AoE ability that rains projectiles from the sky.

Reghar is an expansion of the WC3 Shaman unit, Thrall is an expansion of the Far Seer Hero unit, and Tyrande is an expansion of the Priestess of the Moon Hero unit. It is not so hard to see.
Having more abilities than the WC3 unit is the whole point of expanding. What, did you expect them to have 4? Trueshot Aura is accounted for and Scout has been changed to Sentinel (it's no so hard to realize). The only thing that hasn't been transferred is Searing Arrows, which is probably due to its lack of relevance.
Do you need a complete list of them to get that this is what they were trying to do?:
Chen = Brewmaster
Gazlowe = Tinker
Ragnaros = Firelord
Rexxar = Beastmaster
Thrall = Far Seer
Brightwing = Faerie Dragon
Malfurion = Keeper of the Grove
Tyrande = Priestess of the Moon
Uther = Paladin
Illidan = Demon Hunter
Maiev = Warden
Samuro = Blademaster
Falstad = Gryphon Rider
Cho'gall = Ogre Mage
Gul'dan = Warlock
Jaina = Archmage
Kael'thas = Blood Mage
Kel'thuzad = Lich
Lunara = Dryad
Sylvanas = Dark Ranger
Zul'jin = Axethrower
Medivh = Prophet
Anu'barak = Cryptlord
Arthas = Death Knight
Mal'ganis = Dreadlord
Muradin = Mountain King
Stitches = Abomination

[Ielenia]

You're short sighted.

No, I'm a realist.

They are Demon Hunters:

Is this a demon hunter? Or this one? Or this one? Or this one?

That's what expanding means.

Hide is Shadowmeld, shared across all female Night elven units (so, it's not a PotM thing).
Scout is Sentinel. Both summon owls to reveal hidden targets.
Searing Arrows is gone. Rendering it irrelevant. (1)
Trushot Aura is there in both versions. (2)
Starfall is there in both versions.
It doesn't matter if they don't operate the same as the WC3 ones (3), because that game came out more than a decade earlier. That's the whole point of these takes on older units - refreshing and updating them.

And now you're moving goalposts. You said "Tyrande has Light of Elune because she is a priestess of the moon". The priestess of the moon does not have that ability. In fact, HotS Tyrande not only has abilities that the WC3 PotM does not possess, but also the WC PotM has abilities HotS Tyrande does not possess.
1) It's not irrelevant. It is a PotM ability that Tyrande does not possess. It is very relevant when your argument is:

Look at their abilities.

2) HotS Tyrande's ability works very differently than the WC3 version. Not to mention that it's a talent, not a baseline ability, plus it's not on the whole time.
3) Same as (1). It matters when your argument is "look at abilities".

[username993720]

No, I'm a realist.

How so?
Is it real to believe they dedicated a whole section for the indication of a life realm in a book just for fun and giggles?

Is this a demon hunter? Or this one? Or this one? Or this one?

Of course not. That's the whole point of a tribute. You just confirmed how black eyes on different classes does not make them into a Night Warrior. You are still a Druid, a Hunter or a Priest - like the NPCs in Darkshore.

And now you're moving goalposts. You said "Tyrande has Light of Elune because she is a priestess of the moon". The priestess of the moon does not have that ability.

Back then.
There's so much you can have with a limit of 4 abilities. Tyrande is known to heal, and that comes from her being a PotM, not anything else.

In fact, HotS Tyrande not only has abilities that the WC3 PotM does not possess, but also the WC PotM has abilities HotS Tyrande does not possess.

For the 1,000th time - that's the whole point of expanding. The only thing she does not have is Searing Arrows, which is probably obsolete since then.

1) It's not irrelevant. It is a PotM ability that Tyrande does not possess. It is very relevant when your argument is:

Many abilities are rendered outdated. Like a Demon Hunter's Mana Burn. They have to be adapted to current times or be cut altogether.

2) HotS Tyrande's ability works very differently than the WC3 version. Not to mention that it's a talent, not a baseline ability, plus it's not on the whole time.

Irrelevant. It is still accounted for. Some abilities have to be updated to fit modern times.

3) Same as (1). It matters when your argument is "look at abilities".

Look at the abilities means "look how these characters are supposed to represent those units". I didn't tell you to go into detail, i told you to see the representation.

[Cosmic Janitor]

they did, they easily did! they can easily and very simply NOT use any cow in paladin campaign or class hall, done, now all cows in paladin campaign are just pure gameplay purpose, heck they did that in priest class hall, there is no holy cows there (or disc or shadow) if i remember right
they used cows on purpose to spit on lore face not for any other reason

I mean that is just pretending stuff doesn't exist. What I ment is they didn't have many options for another paladin race on horde side.

[Ielenia]

How so?
Is it real to believe they dedicated a whole section for the indication of a life realm in a book just for fun and giggles?

Is it unreal to believe that they dedicated a whole section for the information of a life realm in a book just for lore-building?

Of course not. That's the whole point of a tribute.

Except the DH tribute is in the form of something anyone and anything can do: wear a blindfold. You cannot have black eyes unless you're the night warrior.

Back then.
There's so much you can have with a limit of 4 abilities. Tyrande is known to heal, and that comes from her being a PotM, not anything else.

Prove it. That's a claim, then prove that Tyrande's healing powers come from being a priestess, and not, for example, Elune's chosen.

For the 1,000th time - that's the whole point of expanding.

So you conflate "expanding" with "going in a different direction"? Again, the PotM does not heal. Tyrande does not have searing arrows.

The only thing she does not have is Searing Arrows, which is probably obsolete since then.

Right. An ability that increases your damage is obsolete in a game where one of the main mechanics is to deal as much damage to your opponent as you can. Do you even read what you're writing?

Many abilities are rendered outdated. Like a Demon Hunter's Mana Burn. They have to be adapted to current times or be cut altogether.

Except we're talking about the HotS "representation" of WC3 characters.

Irrelevant. It is still accounted for. Some abilities have to be updated to fit modern times.

"Updated"? Tell me what about the original WC3 ability was "outdated".

Look at the abilities means "look how these characters are supposed to represent those units". I didn't tell you to go into detail, i told you to see the representation.

There's a reason the saying "the devil is in the details" is a thing, you know? You said look at ABILITIES, you didn't say "look at the representation."

And, just as a fun aside: if you truly believe that is what Aucald meant with his warning, why are you still posting here? Are you willingly and intentionally ignoring a mod rule? Do you want to be banned again? Is that it?

[Triceron]

As long as it can heal (alongside other things), then it would be a true interpretation.

A POTM that does not heal is already a true interpretation of the WC3 concept.

Tyrande is a very loose interpretation of the WC3 POTM, adapted as a healer role in Heroes of the Storm. That's the direction they chose for that particular hero.

Jist like they chose to adapt Lili as a healer, and not build her as a pure Mistweaver Monk but instead give her a whole tea-based healing kit that is loosely based on Monk themes. Lili is a loose interpretation, not a true interpretation of a WoW or WC3-derived Monk class.

(BTW you missed Lili)

Also as I said, Heroes are adapted differently in Heroes of the Storm compared to what the represent in WC3 or WoW.

Greymane is clearly a Warrior type in WoW, yet he is an Outlaw Rogue in Heroes. He uses sabre and pistols, he uses stealth, he throws cocktail grenades. None of this is reflected in WoW, and he doesn't have an Outlaw Rogue connection here at all.

Garrosh is clearly a Warrior, while his kit in HOTS is his own and not based on either WC3 or WoW.

Yrel is clearly a Paladin who does not use abilities the same way in WoW. Vindication and Sacred Ground are entirely new, Righteous Hammer and Avenging Wrath are functionally very different, carried over only in name not in game mechanics.

Would you say these characters need all their abilities represented back into WoW in order for the class to be true interpretations of themselves? Does Paladin need Yrel's abilities in order to be true? What makes Tyrande in HotS considered a true POTM if the only spell she kept is Starfall?

[username993720]

Is it unreal to believe that they dedicated a whole section for the information of a life realm in a book just for lore-building?

For the purpose of.... *hint* *hint*

Except the DH tribute is in the form of something anyone and anything can do: wear a blindfold. You cannot have black eyes unless you're the night warrior.

No shit. Because it was added long before the Demon Hunter was - in vanilla.

Do i need to repeat this a hundred thousand times? you do not need, and do not become, a Night Warrior upon receiving black eyes:

"Contrary to other night elves, they have black eyes due to the Night Warrior ritual. The change occurs over time to any night elf fighting on behalf of Elune while under the darkened moon in Darkshore" - in simple words, it's a side effect.

Night elf Druid with black eyes:
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Idras_Proudwing
Night elf Mage with Black eyes:
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Lieutenant_Golras
Night elf Archer with black eyes:
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Vindictive_Archer
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Kaldorei_Archer
Night elf Huntress with black eyes:
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Nightwreathed_Huntress
Night elf Priest with black eyes:
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Nig...thed_Priestess

If you're wondering, it's not just a title. It bestows powers. Since they all lack it, are not registered as Night Warriors, and never went through the ritual themselves, it is safe to assume they are a by-product of the vicinity to Tyrande's ritual.

Prove it. That's a claim, then prove that Tyrande's healing powers come from being a priestess, and not, for example, Elune's chosen.

What you said is the same thing. She is a Priestess of Elune. Not a Priestess and Elune's Chosen separately.

So you conflate "expanding" with "going in a different direction"? Again, the PotM does not heal. Tyrande does not have searing arrows.

A different direction? It's the same as the unit, just with a lot more flavor.
It makes sense that she would heal, since she is a Priestess of Elune.
Searing Arrows is obviously no longer relevant, since arrows coated with fire probably wasn't very thematic.

Right. An ability that increases your damage is obsolete in a game where one of the main mechanics is to deal as much damage to your opponent as you can. Do you even read what you're writing?

Coating your arrows with fire. Pay attention to the theme of the archetype.

Except we're talking about the HotS "representation" of WC3 characters.

Which is a more modern and updated take on them.

"Updated"? Tell me what about the original WC3 ability was "outdated".

Many abilities don't cross over, like:
The Tinker's Pocket Factory and Cluster Rockets (while Robo-form remains).
The Warden's Shadow Strike (while Fan of Knives remains and Blink was integrated into Spirit of Vengeance).
And guess what? they decided to add HotS abilities to Sylvanas, not WC3 ones.

There's a reason the saying "the devil is in the details" is a thing, you know? You said look at ABILITIES, you didn't say "look at the representation."

The abilities are the representing part.

And, just as a fun aside: if you truly believe that is what Aucald meant with his warning, why are you still posting here? Are you willingly and intentionally ignoring a mod rule? Do you want to be banned again? Is that it?

It has nothing to do with this thread. It has to do with the Necromancer one. While i got infracted, none of you did, even though you all responded to my comment afterwards. I call it favouritism. You guys can mention the Tinker a thousand times in your comments, yet i am the one who gets banned in the end of the day. I'm simply tired of trying to justify myself. It's obviously a personal vendetta or something.

A POTM that does not heal is already a true interpretation of the WC3 concept.

True. But, as i've said, it is somewhat outdated.

Tyrande is a very loose interpretation of the WC3 POTM, adapted as a healer role in Heroes of the Storm. That's the direction they chose for that particular hero.

Very loose? i wouldn't say that. She's got all of the abilities, from Starfall, to Trueshot Aura, to summoning an owl. The only thing missing is the fire arrows, which, honestly, is understandable since this is not so much what the PotM is about.

Jist like they chose to adapt Lili as a healer, and not build her as a pure Mistweaver Monk but instead give her a whole tea-based healing kit that is loosely based on Monk themes. Lili is a loose interpretation, not a true interpretation of a WoW or WC3-derived Monk class.

(BTW you missed Lili)

Li-Li isn't an established unit. She's a newly added character with nothing that specifically defined her. And if i must say so myself, they totally ruined the Mistweaver representation with her.

Also as I said, Heroes are adapted differently in Heroes of the Storm compared to what the represent in WC3 or WoW.

Greymane is clearly a Warrior type in WoW, yet he is an Outlaw Rogue in Heroes. He uses sabre and pistols, he uses stealth, he throws cocktail grenades. None of this is reflected in WoW, and he doesn't have an Outlaw Rogue connection here at all.

I believe some of the artworks depict him with a sword and pistol, if i'm not mistaken, as Pistols are an integral part of Gilnean culture.
Plus, he's not an established unit in previous games. Not to mention that you can't really rely on WoW representation, as they give their NPCs generic abilities (unless it is a raid boss).

Garrosh is clearly a Warrior, while his kit in HOTS is his own and not based on either WC3 or WoW.

Where did Garrosh appear in WC3?
His SoO abilities are very Y'shaarj-themed, so, obviously, it wouldn't cross over to HotS.
He's still a Warrior. Just not using the abilities we're used to.

Yrel is clearly a Paladin who does not use abilities the same way in WoW. Vindication and Sacred Ground are entirely new, Righteous Hammer and Avenging Wrath are functionally very different, carried over only in name not in game mechanics.

Yrel, again, is not based on an established unit (like WC3 Draenei Vinidcators, for example).
Vindication is, indeed, entirely new.
Sacred Ground is another take on Consecration. Avenging Wrath and Righteous Hammer do work a bit differently.

Would you say these characters need all their abilities represented back into WoW in order for the class to be true interpretations of themselves? Does Paladin need Yrel's abilities in order to be true?

I do advocate for it:
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...on-should-have

What makes Tyrande in HotS considered a true POTM if the only spell she kept is Starfall?

And Scout (in the form of Sentinel), and Trueshot Aura. Stop trying to make it look otherwise. The only thing missing is Searing Arrows.

[Triceron]

True. But, as i've said, it is somewhat outdated.

Outdated, and still works. It's absolutely viable for representation as a class skin.

If your argument that a Class would be better, then sure I'd totally agree. But as I've said many times, a Class skin is not a replacement for Classes, it's a matter of opening customizations that do not exist in the game.

Very loose? i wouldn't say that. She's got all of the abilities, from Starfall, to Trueshot Aura, to summoning an owl. The only thing missing is the fire arrows, which, honestly, is understandable since this is not so much what the PotM is about.
---
Li-Li isn't an established unit. She's a newly added character with nothing that specifically defined her. And if i must say so myself, they totally ruined the Mistweaver POTM representation with her.

I'd combine your two statements together and apply that latter statement directly to Tyrande. They misrepresented the WC3 POTM by having her be Healer rather than Ranged DPS with utility. Tyrande is not a representation of the Priestess of the Moon as we've seen in WC3, including how she was used in the campaign itself. She was never used as a healer or a group stealther.

We can agree to disagree on these opinions, but I will not regard Light of Elune as being a requirement to represent the POTM, especially when we've had a POTM represented for YEARS without that spell and there were no problems at all. Even to this day, Light of Elune healing spell does not formally exist in WoW.

Where did Garrosh appear in WC3?
His SoO abilities are very Y'shaarj-themed, so, obviously, it wouldn't cross over to HotS.
He's still a Warrior. Just not using the abilities we're used to.

And that's how you can describe Tyrande, yet you choose not to. Tyrande is still a POTM. SHe's just not usign the abilities we're used to. And whether the POTM representation in WoW should? No, it is not beholden to HOTS interpretation at all. Demon Hunters don't have Hunt. Brewmasters don't have Wandering Keg. Warriors don't have majority of Garrosh abilities. POTM doesn't need Tyrande's HOTS healing spells.

And Scout (in the form of Sentinel), and Trueshot Aura. Stop trying to make it look otherwise. The only thing missing is Searing Arrows.

Yet you're bent out of shape when the only real thing missing is Light of Elune. Again, it's your intended choice to perceive HOTS Tyrande as a true-to-Warcraft 3 POTM, yet you are unable to regard a Hunter that represents the WC3 POTM very distinctly as anything other than being 'outdated'. So this isn't an issue with the intepretation, it's an issue with your particular perspective of not wanting to accept any true-to-Warcraft 3 concept. You'd rather have a POTM that has Light of Elune and Shadowwalk. I can completely understand that sentiment, but really it doesn't mean a Class Skin doesn't work, it just means it doesn't meet your personal standards. And really, that's all subjective, since I could say the Demon Hunter class doesn't meet my standards for not having the Hunt and not having WC3 style Metamorphosis, or say the Brewmaster doesn't meet my standard for having Earth Storm and Fire be on a different spec; that's just personal taste, not whether these classes are properly representing their WC3 counterparts.

I do advocate for it:

I'm not asking whether you'd want it or not. I'm asking you if you consider the Paladin WoW class to be a true interpretation if it's missing Yrel's specific Paladin abilities. Because that's pretty much the standard you're addressing the POTM class concept in terms of missing Heroes of the Storm abilities that never really even existed in WC3 or WoW.


As a point of argument, Survival and Beastmastery both have self-heals, like Mending Bandage or using Spirit Beast heals. That is *one possibility* adapted as Light of Elune. But it's not an idea situation IMO.

I would probably advocate for a self-heal talent added to Marksmanship as a baseline (since the other two specs have heals) and simply have that adaptable as Light of Elune; or in the case of a Dark Ranger, to represent a 'Life Drain' self-heal. I don't think a Hunter with Self-heal will break marksmanship, and it would be a good tie in for future Ranger/Archer concepts that have utility self-heals.

[username993720]

Outdated, and still works. It's absolutely viable for representation as a class skin.

You cannot base an entire class skin on 4 abilities alone. That's why we have HotS to provide us with more, which doesn't fully coincide with the class to be skinned.

If your argument that a Class would be better, then sure I'd totally agree. But as I've said many times, a Class skin is not a replacement for Classes, it's a matter of opening customizations that do not exist in the game.

They compete with one another. Just like Allied Races and Customization Options don't overlap.

I'd combine your two statements together and apply that latter statement directly to Tyrande. They misrepresented the WC3 POTM by having her be Healer rather than Ranged DPS with utility. Tyrande is not a representation of the Priestess of the Moon as we've seen in WC3, including how she was used in the campaign itself. She was never used as a healer or a group stealther.

We can agree to disagree on these opinions, but I will not regard Light of Elune as being a requirement to represent the POTM, especially when we've had a POTM represented for YEARS without that spell and there were no problems at all. Even to this day, Light of Elune healing spell does not formally exist in WoW.

She does DPS with her bow, as well. And most of her WC3 abilities are accounted for. She is perfectly represented and even elaborated to allow the expansion of the archetype beyond mere 4 abilities.
Think of it like an upgrade. WC3 is the base version, HotS is the advanced version and a WoW class would be the complete version.

And that's how you can describe Tyrande, yet you choose not to. Tyrande is still a POTM. SHe's just not usign the abilities we're used to. And whether the POTM representation in WoW should? No, it is not beholden to HOTS interpretation at all. Demon Hunters don't have Hunt. Brewmasters don't have Wandering Keg. Warriors don't have majority of Garrosh abilities. POTM doesn't need Tyrande's HOTS healing spells.

Covenant abilities maybe added later on to the roster of class abilities, like some artifact and azerite traits were.
Monks have other Keg abilities.
There are other Warrior types. Garrosh isn't the rule.
A PotM might not need exactly the same healing spells, but it would require healing in general.

Yet you're bent out of shape when the only real thing missing is Light of Elune. Again, it's your intended choice to perceive HOTS Tyrande as a true-to-Warcraft 3 POTM, yet you are unable to regard a Hunter that represents the WC3 POTM very distinctly as anything other than being 'outdated'. So this isn't an issue with the intepretation, it's an issue with your particular perspective of not wanting to accept any true-to-Warcraft 3 concept. You'd rather have a POTM that has Light of Elune and Shadowwalk. I can completely understand that sentiment, but really it doesn't mean a Class Skin doesn't work, it just means it doesn't meet your personal standards. And really, that's all subjective, since I could say the Demon Hunter class doesn't meet my standards for not having the Hunt and not having WC3 style Metamorphosis, or say the Brewmaster doesn't meet my standard for having Earth Storm and Fire be on a different spec; that's just personal taste, not whether these classes are properly representing their WC3 counterparts.

You can see how the Blood Mage has changed since then, for example. While it had Mana Drain and Banish, this is no longer the case with Kale'thas, who tends more toward the Fire Mage, both in HotS and in WoW.

I'm not asking whether you'd want it or not. I'm asking you if you consider the Paladin WoW class to be a true interpretation if it's missing Yrel's specific Paladin abilities. Because that's pretty much the standard you're addressing the POTM class concept in terms of missing Heroes of the Storm abilities that never really even existed in WC3 or WoW.

Yrel was never a character in previous warcraft games. If you wanna ask, then the Paladin Hero unit (or Uther) should definitely be the framework for the (Holy) Paladin.

As a point of argument, Survival and Beastmastery both have self-heals, like Mending Bandage or using Spirit Beast heals. That is *one possibility* adapted as Light of Elune. But it's not an idea situation IMO.

Self-heal is not ally-healing.
Plus, the PotM would most likely be Marksmanship.

I would probably advocate for a self-heal talent added to Marksmanship as a baseline (since the other two specs have heals) and simply have that adaptable as Light of Elune; or in the case of a Dark Ranger, to represent a 'Life Drain' self-heal. I don't think a Hunter with Self-heal will break marksmanship, and it would be a good tie in for future Ranger/Archer concepts that have utility self-heals.

I don't know why you're insisting on self-healing being a representation of a healer.

[Triceron]

You cannot base an entire class skin on 4 abilities alone.

Nothing really says a Class Skin would be only based on 4 abilities either, it'd be applying new visuals to the entire Hunter class (or specific specs, if decided) to fit the whole theme. So even stuff like Serpent Sting or A Murder of Crows would be adapted to reflect something POTM-like. That would be abilities that are new-to-a-POTM.

I don't know why you're insisting on self-healing being a representation of a healer.

I'm not quite sure why you are insisting that a POTM needs to be a healer either. It's fully representable as a Ranged DPS class.

A PotM might not need exactly the same healing spells, but it would require healing in general.

The POTM Class Skin for Hunter is a Ranged DPS class. Why would it require healing in general? Warcraft 3 already established what POTMs are. I completely disagree that healing is a requirement for a POTM at all. Others have spoken out on disagreeing as well. So really, it's your word against... everyone elses.