Were Holy Pallies this bad originally in TBC?

[kranur]

They weren't bad back then and aren't bad now ... that is if you utilize and measure them correctly.

If you assign them randomly and overkill the raid with too many healers that get bored and keep the tabk topped off instead of taking extra dps, of course they aren't going to be able to do their job properly.

[ellieg]

Yeah I used to love Blessing of Salvation as a BM Hunter. I'd have to ask the paladins to swap out Kings or Might for me to get Salv if we didn't have enough pallies. God bless it.

We are the opposite. Fight every week to not get salvation. Might>kings>wisdom>salv=light for BM hunters. Between misdirect and FD, we shouldn't ever pull aggro. Finally convinced raid lead that salvation means lower misdirect threat and he let us try it. 0 problems

[phattsao]

"Is he wasting a spot? Should we cut him?!"

Love this "professional sports" attitude for decade-old content.

We cleared this shit on DSL at like 18fps back in the day. I think you'll be ok.

[Malania]

We are the opposite. Fight every week to not get salvation. Might>kings>wisdom>salv=light for BM hunters. Between misdirect and FD, we shouldn't ever pull aggro. Finally convinced raid lead that salvation means lower misdirect threat and he let us try it. 0 problems

Multiple hunters, MD did by others on the pull and it was never an issue with aggro anyway on the pull after the first MD. It just meant being able to go full on for longer without needing to FD and have the chance of it being resisted which was a ballache and basically stopped you DPS'ing at all.

Less threat means less FD's and less chances of a resist and MD'ing on cd was just GCD waste. But each to their own. I'd always cut Wisdom/Light first before the others but a dead DPS is a useless one to me.

[ellieg]

Multiple hunters, MD did by others on the pull and it was never an issue with aggro anyway on the pull after the first MD. It just meant being able to go full on for longer without needing to FD and have the chance of it being resisted which was a ballache and basically stopped you DPS'ing at all.

Less threat means less FD's and less chances of a resist and MD'ing on cd was just GCD waste. But each to their own. I'd always cut Wisdom/Light first before the others but a dead DPS is a useless one to me.

Wisdom means you can do the higher dps rotation for longer. Especially if JoW uptime isn't amazing for whatever reason. If you time FD tight as auto goes off, u aren't really losing much. My tanks are really good tho so never had to fd more than twice

[RoKPaNda]

The better your raid does the worse your healers are going to parse. Healer/tank parsing is a bit of a joke. Any healer you assign to being tank healer is going to have lower HPS than healers healing the raid btw. If I'm raid healing as a holy priest my HPS is pretty untouchable. If I'm tank healing I'm doing significantly less healing. If you don't like the pally then sit the pally, but don't pretend it's because pallies are bad. It's not the pally's fault that his class and role mean he's going to put out less HPS than healers that are better raid healers. They can't even really cheese and heal snipe like other healers can. Or at least not on the scale of say a holy priest with CoH. The class is fine, your expectation of it is what's off.

If you finished progression with him you really don't need to sit him though. At that point it feels kind of like "thanks for your help now fuck off."

[Kathandira]

Was starting to wonder how this guy would do in 25s because his Gruul/Mag numbers were always pretty low but even with full t4 bis he's our worst healer on every TK and SSC fight by a huge margin. We run with six heals, a mix of 2 shaman and hpriests, one resto druid and the paladin. Even if all he has to do is spam holy light on the tanks, shouldn't he be pulling more than 400-500 hps at this point? Or are the other healers "sniping" his heals? Don't want to lose him because of the blessings but also seems like kind of a wasted spot. fwiw they always parse high in Kara

Have your Holy Pali focus on healing only the Tank. Afterward, look up who the Tank was healed by, and by how much at the end. If the Holy Pali does 90% of the healing on the Tank, and he didn't die, that is the metric that should matter.

Total healing done to all raid members will be dominated by those who can cast various HoTs, or AoE heals. So that is not how you should measure a Holy Pali.

[Malania]

Wisdom means you can do the higher dps rotation for longer. Especially if JoW uptime isn't amazing for whatever reason. If you time FD tight as auto goes off, u aren't really losing much. My tanks are really good tho so never had to fd more than twice

I understand but you still take the chance on either of them being resisted. I preferred a safety margin back then (I was still quite new to the game having started in 1.11). Mana wasn't much of an issue though. Fel mana potions. Higher mana returns than standard and no down side for Hunters.

[VinceVega]

Was starting to wonder how this guy would do in 25s because his Gruul/Mag numbers were always pretty low but even with full t4 bis he's our worst healer on every TK and SSC fight by a huge margin. We run with six heals, a mix of 2 shaman and hpriests, one resto druid and the paladin. Even if all he has to do is spam holy light on the tanks, shouldn't he be pulling more than 400-500 hps at this point? Or are the other healers "sniping" his heals? Don't want to lose him because of the blessings but also seems like kind of a wasted spot. fwiw they always parse high in Kara

HPS and Healerlogs are nearly worthless. You can look some stuff up when someone died. But other than that?

Healers get good logs when someone makes a mistake. I got a 98% log on Maulgar because someone pulled early and caused chaos etc.
If everything is pulled right and everyone does their job i am happy if i a blue because there is nothing to do really except healing the tanks.

Logn story short: If everyone is alive. HPS don't matter as the healers obviously do their job. Also 6 Healers is too much.

[erifwodahs]

You don't measure healers in raw output, that's irrelevant. You assign your healers (six is heavy btw, drop a raid healer), and if the targets the healer is assigned to don't die, then you're golden.

If you put a pally on a tank and your tank dies, then you look at output vs how your tank plays. If you put a pally on a tank and he's overhealing significantly, look at who else is wasting heals on the tank they're not assigned.

Exactly this. Healers don't compete on HPS meters, they get job assigned and that's what they do otherwise you run into problems of not having CDs when you need to or healers OOMing due to overhealing.

- - - Updated - - -

HPS and Healerlogs are nearly worthless. You can look some stuff up when someone died. But other than that?

Healers get good logs when someone makes a mistake. I got a 98% log on Maulgar because someone pulled early and caused chaos etc.
If everything is pulled right and everyone does their job i am happy if i a blue because there is nothing to do really except healing the tanks.

Also this - for healers to have good parses people literally need to take shitton of damage or you have to run 4 healers in 5 healer fight and make them sweat.

[Bloomer]

cut him and have one of your hpriests/rshams tank heal. and then i imagine youll make a new thread for them.

/thread...

[Thundering]

Holy paladins where always limited healers and when they nerfed the mana batteries in tbc without adding anything they just became a buff spot, used only due to they are fair tank healers.
I remember before the blessing where changed people in original tbc dident even use paladins in any specc, they had 3 standing outside the raid and just buffing people.
What we have now is after buffs and holy is still "broken", they are very bad dungeon healers as well.. but as always fix will come next expansion right when beacon of light "fixed" the issue. In my opinion in a very boring way....

[Monolithi]

Mana efficiency isn't a problem. No one is complaining about going oom and all of our players actually use mana pots, flask, food, etc. Will the 10% less healing cause the other healers to flounder? Not likely. And if the main selling point of a paladin healer is spamming 2k heals and the occassional holy light because "they can for longer", it's lost on the fact that we're killing shit so fast it doesn't matter and would kill even faster with another dps. On reaver, our spriest was healing nearly as much. That's how irrelevant that heal spam is for us.

The blessings I get. And part of the issue may be that our other healers are just amazing. But as for the class itself, I think everyone has answered my question; holy paladins kinda suck. And since he's even parsing blue, with that low hps, the 'best' healing I can expect isn't going to be much better or more necessary.

Anyone saying hps doesn't matter just sounds like someone who consistently parses poorly, tbh. It is THE metric that most defines how much your raid actually needs their healing.

Think you are too much into metrics and parses. While it is fine for dps, for healers it is of non-value.
Abusing meters is well known, both from dps and healers, but healing has its limits. And while your raid will be getting better gear, healers will parse lower and lower and dpsers higher and higher.
Tell your tanks to stand in fire constantly, you will see holy pally hps skyrocket. Overhealing doesnt matter if healer reaches end of fight with zero mana. Overhealing is just safety measure for possible spike damage that didnt happen, but it might.

[Ealyssa]

How is measuring HPS "wrong"? We measure DPS the same way when deciding on who to take for progression.

Yup and that's the problem. Judging only by HPS is extremely stupid...
Hpal job is very specific and if the job is done, it's done. Nothing more he can really do.

[Akka]

Pallies are not bad, people are just idiots with parses. Most people are too stupid to analyze statistics by putting them in context, so they just look at numbers and think "this bad, this good !".

[ghays]

Because you can do +1.5k HPS sniping low hp people and let your tank die at the same time.



You said you finished both raids first day... so i do not see problem honestly.
Your guild seems to be more serious than 90% others (my is 4/6 SSC after yesterday and we consider ourselves as middle ground between casual and hardcore).
As it is first week of this content too so sometimes it is not easy to predict which boss hit hard or not so overhealing is nothing wrong imo.

Some people are more focused on meters and parses as opposed to results. Then they create problems where none existed before.

[Smashfist]

H pals are fine. They should be assigned to the tank. You cancel cast HL rank 9 the majority of the time.

I never cancel casted, too much micromanagement. I stacked crit like a boss and had downranks of everything on my bars. My go-to was a well-downranked FoL that was mana efficient thanks to the mana returns on crits and output was pretty reasonable.

[sam86]

they were broken OP early tbc, they got nerfed a LOT
were they bad by end of tbc? no, they suck at aoe healing, they still best single target healing, if u use them to aoe heal raid then its ur fault
also shamans pretty much f8cked every other healer with bloodlust by end of TBC, no druid or priest or paladin, just chain heal and bloodlust

[Jazzhands]

I have yet to hear a reasonable argument. It also might surprise you to know that everything I've read in the past two hours away from this thread indicates that they're the crappiest healers in TBC. So apparently my curiosity and concern has been shared and analyzed by many others. We're running without him next Tuesday and will see what happens but I suspect it will be a non-issue. I'll report back here afterwards and will be happy to admit we needed him, if that's the case. If not, then hey, five healing without a holy pally is easy and it'll be food for thought.

I can do double your paladins HPS while absolutely failing every job a Hpaladin has in a raid. This has been explained, you just don't seem to want to acknowledge it. You've even said he does utility properly, which is literally the harder part of being a paladin healer, the rest is just spamming FoL on the tanks and the occasional HL when you know big damage is coming. If he wants higher HPS he has to ignore the tank and snipe group heals, which isn't his job, which means higher HPS = him playing badly.

I do less HPS when my group is better, am I a worse healer in those groups? It sounds like both your Hpaladin and tanks are doing things right, and you're about to kick your Hpaladin for it. So sad.

[NotAvry]

No holy palas own in tbc especially at the start but tend to fall off.