Who should be the next Warmonger?

[thegoodbroham]

That's kind of the reason Order Halls didn't work for me, where It stifled and squandered the last vestiges of unique class subgroups like the Blood Knights. Generally speaking it was an odd mishmash of groups, who are supposed to have vastly different viewpoints, MOs and even hate each other. At times only really being the same class, because they have vaguely similar abilities. I found it especially bad, in the Paladin, Priest, Mage, Hunter and Rogue ones. Warrior one was just wierd and didn't really fit into anything outside the superficial "Valhalla is warrior heaven, right?!"

That's also fair. I also played a blood elf paladin, a blood knight, and wished the order halls did feature the distinct racial flavors of each class as more separate. Really, in universe they are "different" classes but using the same in-game class for gameplay purposes. Thematically similar overall, but it would have been cooler if those unique characteristics were highlighted more in their alliances.

But even so, I still prefer watered down blood kngihts and sunwalkers as human paladins more than I did Liadrin vs Turalyon in BFA calling each other "false" paladins.

[sighy]

Trolls can go eat shit, honestly. After what night elves got to swallow they should be happy their aztec pyramid is still standing and not converted into a taco place by Alliance or someone else. They can live with some humble pie for dinner.

What Night Elves had to swallow was pretty damned tame compared to the massive cactus Forsaken got rammed up their ass over the course of BfA. Night Elves only really lost a tree and an arbitrary number of irrelevant no-names nobody cared about to begin with.

[Soon-TM]

Liadrin vs Turalyon in BFA calling each other "false" paladins.

Oddly enough, I found that bit to be quite paladin-ish, to an extent. I mean, one of the defining traits of WoW paladins is that they are (or can very well be) religious zealots. And if history books are correct, during the Middle Ages there were many wars (cold or otherwise) where the most extremist members of each faction's priesthood charged each other with heresy. The Eastern Schism is a good example.

[sighy]

That's also fair. I also played a blood elf paladin, a blood knight, and wished the order halls did feature the distinct racial flavors of each class as more separate. Really, in universe they are "different" classes but using the same in-game class for gameplay purposes. Thematically similar overall, but it would have been cooler if those unique characteristics were highlighted more in their alliances.

But even so, I still prefer watered down blood kngihts and sunwalkers as human paladins more than I did Liadrin vs Turalyon in BFA calling each other "false" paladins.

Class Orders would have been easier to buy into, as an alliance of convenience, in the face of literal apocalypse and were even kind of marketed that way initially. And the friction was a real missed opportunity, even to establish some lines of division between the Horde and the Aliance orgs, if they wanted to split it up for BfA. That said it's much more in character for Liadrin to call Turalyon thrash than to humbly join the Silver Hand lol, if anything it would ahve been nice to explore the nigh warlockish and immensely prideful attitude Blood Knights were built around. (Yes i know about the TBC ending, where Liadrin went full 180 and started proverbially killsing Velen's feet.)

[ohwell]

I'm tired of Horde vs Alliance. I have no faith in the modern writers to deliever a satisfying faction or racial conflict. As bad as the Janitor is, would you really want to see your favorite faction/racial leaders like Talanji or Genn corrupted into villains to be unsatisfyingly killed off? At least with new OC villains like the Janitor, your emotional investment in your favorite characters isn't being toyed with.

And yet with your purposeful distortion of his name he still has just as much depth or even more than some of the characters people fanboi over... but hey amg you're totally so cool/funny or whatever you want to think by saying Janitor.

[VladlTutushkin]

Nelfs were almost trashed during the First War, they got their asses handed to them by the Qiraji during the War of the Shifting Sands, exiled like half of their kind for their stupid anti-arcane bias, and went to live like literal hippies during 10k years in order to be better prepared for the next Legion invasion - and guess what, the Legion would have completely wiped the floor with them if it hadn't been for the fortunate (and most opportune) but unforeseen presence of Jaina's and Thrall's forces.

And nelfs were never sold as the ultimate Mary Tzu nation capable of defeating everyone by themselves. They look cool, and that's it, but don't pretend they should be something akin to the last boss of an arcade game.



What does this even mean...?



Look at all the Ally fans ITT wringing their hands and tearing their hair out at the mere thought of Turalyon being something more than Super Duper Good Boi #56327804

Night elves are part of the Alliance, which supposed to, you know, be a defensive alliance that supports its members. Instead they never get help... Oh, my bad, never aside from that one time with Varian. Since then they were pretty much left on their own against the Horde. As i said - they were never sold as a punching bag for the Horde. Not once it is mentioned. If Blizz add that to race description in the race menu and add the disclaimer "if you pick this race then prepare to be a punching bag" then by all means, you can say that people were just dumb picking them and hoping for an enjoyable game experience.

And those "Ally fans" are not happy with Turalyon being potentially turned evil because its the same shit as Vulpera purge squads. Pointless, does no real damage to the Horde and exists only to create some fake sense of equality between factions in terms of badness.

People are not against "evil Alliance" they are against "evil Alliance that will be fucked over and do no damage to the Horde again".

If Turalyon goes off the rocker and crushed horde under his Light infused boot for an exansion or two until you wiggle your way out and have to unite with Alliance renegades to deal with him then be my guest. But again - no permanent damage to Stormwind. He gets a book where some third party makes you look like a fool for hating him. And he either escapes to get an expansion based on his antics or he gets redemption arc. Deal?

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What Night Elves had to swallow was pretty damned tame compared to the massive cactus Forsaken got rammed up their ass over the course of BfA. Night Elves only really lost a tree and an arbitrary number of irrelevant no-names nobody cared about to begin with.

Yeah, lets just forget how they also were pretty much reduced to a status of WW2 Italy or France and their whole race now exists as a joke somewhere below gnome level.

Forsaken at least got to keep their pride and power as an unstoppable death machine that kills everything even in defeat.

[sighy]

Night elves are part of the Alliance, which supposed to, you know, be a defensive alliance that supports its members. Instead they never get help... Oh, my bad, never aside from that one time with Varian. Since then they were pretty much left on their own against the Horde. As i said - they were never sold as a punching bag for the Horde. Not once it is mentioned. If Blizz add that to race description in the race menu and add the disclaimer "if you pick this race then prepare to be a punching bag" then by all means, you can say that people were just dumb picking them and hoping for an enjoyable game experience.

And those "Ally fans" are not happy with Turalyon being potentially turned evil because its the same shit as Vulpera purge squads. Pointless, does no real damage to the Horde and exists only to create some fake sense of equality between factions in terms of badness.

People are not against "evil Alliance" they are against "evil Alliance that will be fucked over and do no damage to the Horde again".

If Turalyon goes off the rocker and crushed horde under his Light infused boot for an exansion or two until you wiggle your way out and have to unite with Alliance renegades to deal with him then be my guest. But again - no permanent damage to Stormwind. He gets a book where some third party makes you look like a fool for hating him. And he either escapes to get an expansion based on his antics or he gets redemption arc. Deal?

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Yeah, lets just forget how they also were pretty much reduced to a status of WW2 Italy or France and their whole race now exists as a joke somewhere below gnome level.

Forsaken at least got to keep their pride and power as an unstoppable death machine that kills everything even in defeat.

You knwo the funny thing is that, in the original Horde plan they actuallyw anted to take advantage of the fact that the Aliance only really seems to take from the Night Elves, but never helps them, in order to cause internal friction within the Aliance so they could then make peace with the individual subfactions later once it was shattered... A more interesting premise than "Fuck you, because hail satan!" wouldn't you agree? (It'd even allow Anduin to quote Captain America with some speech about preemptive wars always leading to innocent deaths)


Using your analogy the Forsaken are roughly in a Weimar Republic period, where they don't have anything left or going their way. (And tbh Val'sharah did way more damage to NEs being taken seriously than BfA and SL put together xD ) That said i think that Tyrande giving up her powers could have been done better. If they wanted to say that she is out of control tunnel visioned on Sylvanas maybe have her accidentally harm Shandris with one of her area attacks or something. Tyrande would still look dumb, but that ship kinda sailed a long time ago *ahem* Knaak trilogy *ahem*

[VladlTutushkin]

You knwo the funny thing is that, in the original Horde plan they actuallyw anted to take advantage of the fact that the Aliance only really seems to take from the Night Elves, but never helps them, in order to cause internal friction within the Aliance so they could then make peace with the individual subfactions later once it was shattered... A more interesting premise than "Fuck you, because hail satan!" wouldn't you agree? (It'd even allow Anduin to quote Captain America with some speech about preemptive wars always leading to innocent deaths)


Using your analogy the Forsaken are roughly in a Weimar Republic period, where they don't have anything left or going their way. (And tbh Val'sharah did way more damage to NEs being taken seriously than BfA and SL put together xD ) That said i think that Tyrande giving up her powers could have been done better. If they wanted to say that she is out of control tunnel visioned on Sylvanas maybe have her accidentally harm Shandris with one of her area attacks or something. Tyrande would still look dumb, but that ship kinda sailed a long time ago *ahem* Knaak trilogy *ahem*

Forsaken have their every accolade from before, and only temporarily were forced to stop being genocidal. Plus we dont know if they will even go with that, because they never commit to defanging with the Horde. They were not put under any sanctions like Weimar Republic or occupied. They ended up with all they had before, and with their reputation intact, only losing their capital temporarily to Blight. They are more akin to Russia after Napoleon's invasion... However less savaged because they didnt had to burn their whole countryside all the way to Moscow for scorched earth tactics.

Also Horde never makes peace on their own, so plan was unrealistic anyway. Even "back then" Sylvanas pretty much counted on Alliance NOT fracturing and Horde "satisfying their bloodlust in Stormwind". She knew that Horde was too dumb and warlike to stop UNTIL she does somethign stupid and exposes her true nature. Which she did when she lost her cool in duel with Saurfang.

So no, no more faction war because Blizzard cant write Horde in a vulnerable position and cant write Alliance as anything but victims and cant write night elves at all.

[sighy]

Forsaken have their every accolade from before, and only temporarily were forced to stop being genocidal. Plus we dont know if they will even go with that, because they never commit to defanging with the Horde. They were not put under any sanctions like Weimar Republic or occupied. They ended up with all they had before, and with their reputation intact, only losing their capital temporarily to Blight. They are more akin to Russia after Napoleon's invasion... However less savaged because they didnt had to burn their whole countryside all the way to Moscow for scorched earth tactics.

Also Horde never makes peace on their own, so plan was unrealistic anyway. Even "back then" Sylvanas pretty much counted on Alliance NOT fracturing and Horde "satisfying their bloodlust in Stormwind". She knew that Horde was too dumb and warlike to stop UNTIL she does somethign stupid and exposes her true nature. Which she did when she lost her cool in duel with Saurfang.

So no, no more faction war because Blizzard cant write Horde in a vulnerable position and cant write Alliance as anything but victims and cant write night elves at all.

The plan was to cause friction, which would leave Stormwind without allies, with Anduin surrendering unconditionally. Whether that would lead to a pile of rubble and orc poop is debatable. Horde side pitch was that kind of "peace in our time" rhetoric, which would have been interesting. We only really got teased, by what could have been, when Tyrande blew a fuse on Anduin, because he is a dumb kid playing on a king, while the more experienced and uncompromising Sylvanas runs circles around him. BfA had tons of potential, if Blizzard decided to tell a good story instead of setting up Shadowlands. Showing DIDs, VEs, NEs and such do questionable things to some no-names would probably pop a few Aliance players, while acting in a grey area of them thinking they knwo better than the kid so the golden child can stay morally perfect.

Reigning the Horde in when the time came would be a distinctly Sylvanas problem. If they wrote it smartly they could have given Anduin some clever ways out of the open conflict doubling down on his being a diplomat, without making everyone involved look like idiots. (And the Black Empire should have been an expansion not a patch, after resolving the open conflict imho) Possibly keeping team Tyrande as violent guerillas, who refuse to back down harassing the Horde around Kalimdor.



Ultimately you can't have a morally grey narrative, without multiple valid perspectives. What we got was some wierd damage control, when they figured out that the story they wanted to tell was a nuclear dumpster fire only people in denial doing unhealthy amounts of mental gymnastics could enjoy.

[VladlTutushkin]

The plan was to cause friction, which would leave Stormwind without allies, with Anduin surrendering unconditionally. Whether that would lead to a pile of rubble and orc poop is debatable. Horde side pitch was that kind of "peace in our time" rhetoric, which would have been interesting. We only really got teased, by what could have been, when Tyrande blew a fuse on Anduin, because he is a dumb kid playing on a king, while the more experienced and uncompromising Sylvanas runs circles around him. BfA had tons of potential, if Blizzard decided to tell a good story instead of setting up Shadowlands. Showing DIDs, VEs, NEs and such do questionable things to some no-names would probably pop a few Aliance players, while acting in a grey area of them thinking they knwo better than the kid so the golden child can stay morally perfect.

Reigning the Horde in when the time came would be a distinctly Sylvanas problem. If they wrote it smartly they could have given Anduin some clever ways out of the open conflict doubling down on his being a diplomat, without making everyone involved look like idiots. (And the Black Empire should have been an expansion not a patch, after resolving the open conflict imho) Possibly keeping team Tyrande as violent guerillas, who refuse to back down harassing the Horde around Kalimdor.



Ultimately you can't have a morally grey narrative, without multiple valid perspectives. What we got was some wierd damage control, when they figured out that the story they wanted to tell was a nuclear dumpster fire only people in denial doing unhealthy amounts of mental gymnastics could enjoy.

It all sounds good on paper but in reality it would have being showing Alliance as a bunch of weaklings who only saved by sweet talking horde into not butchering them here and now. Amazing plot, i cant see it going to the shitter in any way, shape or form. Anduin's staggering incompetence shouldnt have hindered Alliance as much since he NOT SUPPOSED TO BE BLUE WARCHIEF. High King is a leader of an Alliance, but not its ruler. He had a more "mediating" role between all factions, rather then deciding for them.

Also with how Blizz handled night elven vengeance and their attitude towards the Horde i have no hope for them writing anything remotely "grey". Imagine fucken "getting over" genocide while the ashes of your dead are not even cold yet. And then being told to "calm down" when your enemy just straight up evades any responsibility. Thrall should have being a bloody, skinned corpse after his visit to Hyjal. Or rather after he fails to deliver his empty promise of "banshee's head".

Not to mention that with this war, realistically Alliance should have kept fighting until either they are all dead or Horde is no more.

[Nerovar]

Post-redemption Sylvanas would allow them to do a double story retread, making it all the more tantalizing for Blizzard's writers.

No one would expect them to retread the same plot points for the third time - let alone with the same character. It would be a stroke of genius and thoughtful commentary on the nature of.........

[sighy]

It all sounds good on paper but in reality it would have being showing Alliance as a bunch of weaklings who only saved by sweet talking horde into not butchering them here and now. Amazing plot, i cant see it going to the shitter in any way, shape or form. Anduin's staggering incompetence shouldnt have hindered Alliance as much since he NOT SUPPOSED TO BE BLUE WARCHIEF. High King is a leader of an Alliance, but not its ruler. He had a more "mediating" role between all factions, rather then deciding for them.

Also with how Blizz handled night elven vengeance and their attitude towards the Horde i have no hope for them writing anything remotely "grey". Imagine fucken "getting over" genocide while the ashes of your dead are not even cold yet. And then being told to "calm down" when your enemy just straight up evades any responsibility. Thrall should have being a bloody, skinned corpse after his visit to Hyjal. Or rather after he fails to deliver his empty promise of "banshee's head".

Not to mention that with this war, realistically Alliance should have kept fighting until either they are all dead or Horde is no more.

Thing is a meatgrinder playing for maximum casualties plays right into the Forsaken's hands. Something the Aliance leaders would and damn well should be keenly aware of. Plus a decentralised leadership, which has conflicting interests introduced has disjointed disaster written all over it, even if Anduin is only there to give them some sense of cohesion. So it'd be way worse than if Anduin was "Blue Warchief", as you put it. (something the new Horde cuckcil will be even more suceptible to), as compared to singular leader, who hands down orders to their subordinates.

And tbh if NEs are as weakened as some Alliance players post they shouldn't really be able to do much more than a random skirmish here and there. Annoying to be sure, but hardly a legit threat to Horde held areas. Especially if they stop the whole total global conflict sicne the other races have hell of a lot to lose, in such a commitment.

[VladlTutushkin]

Thing is a meatgrinder playing for maximum casualties plays right into the Forsaken's hands. Something the Aliance leaders would and damn well should be keenly aware of. Plus a decentralised leadership, which has conflicting interests introduced has disjointed disaster written all over it, even if Anduin is only there to give them some sense of cohesion. So it'd be way worse than if Anduin was "Blue Warchief", as you put it. (something the new Horde cuckcil will be even more suceptible to), as compared to singular leader, who hands down orders to their subordinates.

And tbh if NEs are as weakened as some Alliance players post they shouldn't really be able to do much more than a random skirmish here and there. Annoying to be sure, but hardly a legit threat to Horde held areas. Especially if they stop the whole total global conflict sicne the other races have hell of a lot to lose, in such a commitment.

Its not even about night elves in general , whole Alliance should have seen that Horde is impossible to reason with and will chimp out eventually in a most damaging, destructive way. Essentially same way that Prussia was "deleted" or Germany split back in the days.

Also night elves should have being this weakened in the first place, them doing that endless string of dumbass decisions and losing essentially their whole civilian population was exactly the result of writing that was made to humiliate them and destroy them for a cheap shock value that was not capitalized on later on.

And "meatrginder" now is BETTER then death by a thousand cuts tomorrow. Sometimes simply going "all in" IS the key to victory. After all Zhukov basically built his whole strategy around it in WW2.

[sighy]

Its not even about night elves in general , whole Alliance should have seen that Horde is impossible to reason with and will chimp out eventually in a most damaging, destructive way. Essentially same way that Prussia was "deleted" or Germany split back in the days.

Also night elves should have being this weakened in the first place, them doing that endless string of dumbass decisions and losing essentially their whole civilian population was exactly the result of writing that was made to humiliate them and destroy them for a cheap shock value that was not capitalized on later on.

And "meatrginder" now is BETTER then death by a thousand cuts tomorrow. Sometimes simply going "all in" IS the key to victory. After all Zhukov basically built his whole strategy around it in WW2.

Well Zhukov didn't have to face necromancy rofl. And that kind of stuff is only possible in an absolute victory, which shouldn't really happen.

I agree with you that the shockvalue shot basically everyone involved in the foot, if Blizz didn't want a long term conflict.

[Mungho]

No one would expect them to retread the same plot points for the third time - let alone with the same character. It would be a stroke of genius and thoughtful commentary on the nature of.........

Nature of what!? Don't leave us hanging!

[VladlTutushkin]

Well Zhukov didn't have to face necromancy rofl. And that kind of stuff is only possible in an absolute victory, which shouldn't really happen.

I agree with you that the shockvalue shot basically everyone involved in the foot, if Blizz didn't want a long term conflict.

Forsaken only have necromancy in their valkyrs, so they can either hold those back in reserve or expose them and risk Alliance killing them, each val'kyr being irreplaceable.

And they destroyed WHOLE RACE just for that. Not just destroyed but also later dumped into the ditch to rot without any cahtharsis.

[Darth-Piekus]

Forsaken only have necromancy in their valkyrs, so they can either hold those back in reserve or expose them and risk Alliance killing them, each val'kyr being irreplaceable.

And they destroyed WHOLE RACE just for that. Not just destroyed but also later dumped into the ditch to rot without any cahtharsis.

But the Valkyr's are gone now. All of the Forsaken assets are gone with Sylvannas.

[VladlTutushkin]

But the Valkyr's are gone now. All of the Forsaken assets are gone with Sylvannas.

Only Valkyrs are gone and they only had Valkyrs since Cata. Their main weapons are still with them and so their reputation.

[Wagar]

I think we will see Turalyon crave conflict. Imagine being a war hawk for 1000 years and then just being done? meanwhile you've been manipulated and converted by the light .

Or he will just have a way more direct approach to a current issues on azeroth and just see eradicating the enemy as the only answer. or converting them i suppose.

I don't trust the light one damn bit.

[sighy]

Forsaken only have necromancy in their valkyrs, so they can either hold those back in reserve or expose them and risk Alliance killing them, each val'kyr being irreplaceable.

And they destroyed WHOLE RACE just for that. Not just destroyed but also later dumped into the ditch to rot without any cahtharsis.

It can vary. I could see them making basic skeleton constructs or something even without the Valkyr. None the less they'd be a major asset even just in the backline having bodies brought to them or smth.

They did a lot of damage to the player faction of that race, yes. That's not even nearly all of them however and Maiev for example fighting for Tyrande makes no sense given their relationship anyway. I'm not sure what you expected the "payback" would look like, because it was obvious from the get go that Tyrande is never getting the kill on Sylvanas, because besides Thrall she is the last Horde character with any name value. Nobody is gonna be interested in buying a game with the likes of Baine on the cover. Should it have been better than running around aimlessly in Thorgast, before losing powers randomly, because the team couldn't be arsed to give them a proper payoff fight? Sure. On the bright side Night Elves don't have a Calia, in their future...


PS: I'm just gonna say for the Horde perspective of events in BfA. There was no agency to be had, you were an onlooker, with a never ending slew of having to watch characters like Baine and Saurfang ceaselessly bitching and whining. And then, when Baine finally gets what's coming to him the characters present are like "Woe is me! How dare she do the single most justified action in the last 10 fucking years?"... cringe at best, absolutely insufferable at worst. So it Boiled down to Horde vs Horde, with Aliance in the backdrop, because we can't have Anduin do anything even slightly incriminating and everyone who disagrees with him either sees the error of their ways or is an insane villain.