Who should be the next Warmonger?

[Zuben]

I dont play since 8.1 , fucken undead elves were too much for me. This was peak bullshit writing in my opinion. But it stands close enough with Anduin and his moronic false equivalencies and whole Horde being much of slobbering morons and justifying every stereotype that can be found about them.

Besides, it couldnt have ended any way else. Because in your scenario both factions were (realistically) locked in a final war of extermination, so either Horde would have being dismantled and put under sanctions and occupation, or Alliance massacred to the last living being.

I mean, I knew it couldn't have gone to such extremes, but the problem is that BFA ended with the situation of the world being too similar to how it was prior. Some key characters were removed, but otherwise the roster is as they've always been, or even milder. No repercussions of any kind one way or the other, it's like we didn't even have a war. I could begrudgingly accept that disappointing return to status quo once with the defeat of Garrosh, as much as I hated the idea of Vol'jin as Warchief. But this second time is too much. There needed to be repercussions, for things in the world to actually change. The announcement trailer painting the continents red and blue suggested as much (not that I want a total continental split between Horde and Alliance), but all that amounted to was Darnassus and Undercity being locked behind Chromie-time, which isn't nearly enough, especially as the war started with them.

Faction war only works if there are notable in-game repercussions. Consider how Stormwind was totally sacked in the First War, then the Second War saw the destruction of Alterac and Horde was defeated and scattered. With the past being like that Blizz can't just initiate a total war in WoW then cheap out on the repercussions. While they can't obliterate the factions they can destroy cities, make whole zones change ownership, build something new. Cataclysm was an attempt at such (though I want them to go even further). With BFA they went a little way, then threw in N'Zoth as a distraction. The most cringing example of how out of touch they are is the Loyalist plot-line. We were essentially the same as the Rebels, doing same things such as killing Sunreavers to free Baine. But as double agents, hue hue!

I didn't think it was unreasonable to expect Blizz to do something fresh with a faction war. Currently my only hope is that they'll find the spine to do something with Lordaeron now that it's in a highly contested state. Imagine if at the end of such potential campaign Alliance actually has a major city there and works to renew the land? I'd want that far more than for the Forsaken to get theirs back, which says something since I used to be a hardliner for Forsakens' right to Lordaeron.

[VladlTutushkin]

I mean, I knew it couldn't have gone to such extremes, but the problem is that BFA ended with the situation of the world being too similar to how it was prior. Some key characters were removed, but otherwise the roster is as they've always been, or even milder. No repercussions of any kind one way or the other, it's like we didn't even have a war. I could begrudgingly accept that disappointing return to status quo once with the defeat of Garrosh, as much as I hated the idea of Vol'jin as Warchief. But this second time is too much. There needed to be repercussions, for things in the world to actually change. The announcement trailer painting the continents red and blue suggested as much (not that I want a total continental split between Horde and Alliance), but all that amounted to was Darnassus and Undercity being locked behind Chromie-time, which isn't nearly enough, especially as the war started with them.

Faction war only works if there are notable in-game repercussions. Consider how Stormwind was totally sacked in the First War, then the Second War saw the destruction of Alterac and Horde was defeated and scattered. With the past being like that Blizz can't just initiate a total war in WoW then cheap out on the repercussions. While they can't obliterate the factions they can destroy cities, make whole zones change ownership, build something new. Cataclysm was an attempt at such (though I want them to go even further). With BFA they went a little way, then threw in N'Zoth as a distraction. The most cringing example of how out of touch they are is the Loyalist plot-line. We were essentially the same as the Rebels, doing same things such as killing Sunreavers to free Baine. But as double agents, hue hue!

I didn't think it was unreasonable to expect Blizz to do something fresh with a faction war. Currently my only hope is that they'll find the spine to do something with Lordaeron now that it's in a highly contested state. Imagine if at the end of such potential campaign Alliance actually has a major city there and works to renew the land? I'd want that far more than for the Forsaken to get theirs back, which says something since I used to be a hardliner for Forsakens' right to Lordaeron.

And night elves needed MORE humiliation after years of being shown as punching bags and helpless damsels of Kalimdor, right? So not enough for them to lose their capital , they also should be uprooted from Kalimdor and thrown away to rot in human cities, maybe make a special district for them even! Call it something like "elven district" or "elfinage" or "alienage"... Oh wait its literally Dragon Age copy paste now.

For forsaken it was the first defeat in ages, night elves were being abused by the plot almost since inception. How would you incentives their fans from NOT leaving the game then after this final pile of shit in the face?

[Zuben]

And night elves needed MORE humiliation after years of being shown as punching bags and helpless damsels of Kalimdor, right? So not enough for them to lose their capital , they also should be uprooted from Kalimdor and thrown away to rot in human cities, maybe make a special district for them even! Call it something like "elven district" or "elfinage" or "alienage"... Oh wait its literally Dragon Age copy paste now.

For forsaken it was the first defeat in ages, night elves were being abused by the plot almost since inception. How would you incentives their fans from NOT leaving the game then after this final pile of shit in the face?

What are you arguing here? I didn't say anything about the night elves?

[geco]

1. I mean, players have unwittingly served evil before. It's a common twist in wow. And people complain that there's no more Sylvanas Loyalist storyline, but that's not completely true: The last thing Sylvanas says to do is blend in & continue to make everyone think you're "one of them"
2. That's a matter of perspective. If she sincerely feels beating the Jailer is impossible you have to take that into consideration.
3. Not sure if that's official. Even then I'm talking about books & short stories that are more recent.
4. But you have to take Sylvanas' plan to its logical conclusion: As presented to her by the Jailer, even if the heelturn was obvious to us, the plan is Sylvanas fights for all souls to go to the Maw; So the Jailer can have an army, to overthrow his captors, to ultimately release everyone from the Maw. Her intention was pure.

Killing people in order to set them free: Sylvanas' & Illidan's whole deal

Ok, you really missed the part where Sylvanas reveals herself against the jailer.

And back we have to assume that Sylvanas supposedly has some plan that at some point maybe hopefully they will tell us and tell us how it really is good but she never hinted at any of that.

While Illidian is "I take a weapon from the bad guys, I use it against the bad guys".

[VladlTutushkin]

What are you arguing here? I didn't say anything about the night elves?

You spoke about consequences and how continents should have switched hands in your scenario. That means removing night elves from Kalimdor (and draenei too) and removing blood elves and forsaken from EK.

[sighy]

Only reason Horde suddenly got an upper hand was because plot was retarded to begin with.

Also it was a genocide, considering how majority of night elven civilian population was by a combination of factors stuck at Teldrassil. First they were all escaping to Ashenvale, then to Darkshore and then to Teldrassil, and then they were all dead. Majority of their race, not just some local civilians. Literally whole Kalimdor's night elves were there. Aside from Cenarion Circle druids.

The situationw as less about the Horde being superb and more about the Aliance just having catastrophic losses given that their army died to the whole Azshara plot, while Horde's only casualities were expendable rebels. /shrug


Lots of deaths does not equal genocide and i'm growing pretty tired of people carelessly watering it down. Lots of people dying, while terrible doesn't make it a genocide, because that's not based on scale, but a narrow set of very specific criteria. If WoT were to actually happen it would be classed as "Crimes against Humanity", because that's basically anything war, which directly involved civilians. (Also they had an in universe month, while Saurfang was walking around Felwood with smugglers to use anything from mages to ships to get them out of there.)

Then again if mages(Except Jaina), Warlocks and Shamans were actually allowed to wield their real power and use brains the whole story would have looked very different.

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Ok, you really missed the part where Sylvanas reveals herself against the jailer.

And back we have to assume that Sylvanas supposedly has some plan that at some point maybe hopefully they will tell us and tell us how it really is good but she never hinted at any of that.

While Illidian is "I take a weapon from the bad guys, I use it against the bad guys".

Even if they did it's just a case of too little too late lol. But given our collection of information, which would ahve been relevant way before it was revealed so far it would not surprise me.

[Zuben]

You spoke about consequences and how continents should have switched hands in your scenario. That means removing night elves from Kalimdor (and draenei too) and removing blood elves and forsaken from EK.

I said I don't want that. The small text in my post. What I meant is that zones in general ought to switch owners, not continents. I'd particularly love to see Orgrimmar obliterated just so Horde could build a main capital elsewhere. Somewhere that isn't a dull desert.

[VladlTutushkin]

The situationw as less about the Horde being superb and more about the Aliance just having catastrophic losses given that their army died to the whole Azshara plot, while Horde's only casualities were expendable rebels. /shrug


Lots of deaths does not equal genocide and i'm growing pretty tired of people carelessly watering it down. Lots of people dying, while terrible doesn't make it a genocide, because that's not based on scale, but a narrow set of very specific criteria. If WoT were to actually happen it would be classed as "Crimes against Humanity", because that's basically anything war, which directly involved civilians. (Also they had an in universe month, while Saurfang was walking around Felwood with smugglers to use anything from mages to ships to get them out of there.)

Then again if mages(Except Jaina), Warlocks and Shamans were actually allowed to wield their real power and use brains the whole story would have looked very different.

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Even if they did it's just a case of too little too late lol. But given our collection of information, which would ahve been relevant way before it was revealed so far it would not surprise me.

And Horde supposedly not only lost all its armies but also went broke, at least according to Lor’Themar who states that they not only out of men but also out of gold by the end of BfA in short story of his (and Thalyssra).

But the reason horde even had a chance to strike at Teldrassil was because writers bent their spines into dougnuts to give the Horde this victory. There should have never being a War of Thorns or at least the burning.

[sighy]

And Horde supposedly not only lost all its armies but also went broke, at least according to Lor’Themar who states that they not only out of men but also out of gold by the end of BfA in short story of his (and Thalyssra).

But the reason horde even had a chance to strike at Teldrassil was because writers bent their spines into dougnuts to give the Horde this victory. There should have never being a War of Thorns or at least the burning.

There are many things which should have and shouldn't have happened. But if we're being honest Blizzard never was any good at keeping that sort of stuff consistant.


The WoT is the least implausible part of BfA given the NElf track record of, at best pyrrhic victories regardless of oponent.

Seriously tho the only reason there still even is a forest is because the demigods keep regrowing it all the time...

[VladlTutushkin]

There are many things which should have and shouldn't have happened. But if we're being honest Blizzard never was any good at keeping that sort of stuff consistant.


The WoT is the least implausible part of BfA given the NElf track record of, at best pyrrhic victories regardless of oponent.

Seriously tho the only reason there still even is a forest is because the demigods keep regrowing it all the time...

Night elves are a case of writer having a “favorite” character to use as a punching bag or a “fridged wife” trope. It even became a name for a trope, like fridging or Worf effect. Or less known Yamcha effect from DBZ.

The fact they also keep doing that while knowing how tired fanbase becomes of constantly being fed defeats and depression is impressively ignorant on their part.

And if you want to “dig” into tropes and use them as justification…

Then forsaken are mindless victims of a totalitarian regime who would be better off at the bountiful and warm bosom of Mommy Calia.

While orcs are slobbering morons who literally too dumb and aggressive to think for themselves.

And so on. Having a bad trope associated with character or race is not a good thing and using it as a “point” in discussion only invites others to use tropes you hate against you at which point it comes to a dead end.

[PaladinBash]

Alliance will never be allowed to win. Never be allowed to have a real payoff or victory dance. NEVER be allowed to just shit on the Horde and have them then HELP US afterwards. That'll never happen, it'll never be fair and it'll never be even. I'd rather just not bother anymore. I'm tired of it. Light vs Void or some shit is the new direction and I'd love to have everyone pick a faction rather than another forced bullshit thing where it's suddenly "hey guys, the LIGHT of all things is actually totally evil because of reasons" and it's in reality the Alliance saving the Horde from consequences again. The story can't get much worse but that's about the only way.

[sighy]

Night elves are a case of writer having a “favorite” character to use as a punching bag or a “fridged wife” trope. It even became a name for a trope, like fridging or Worf effect. Or less known Yamcha effect from DBZ.

The fact they also keep doing that while knowing how tired fanbase becomes of constantly being fed defeats and depression is impressively ignorant on their part.

And if you want to “dig” into tropes and use them as justification…

Then forsaken are mindless victims of a totalitarian regime who would be better off at the bountiful and warm bosom of Mommy Calia.

While orcs are slobbering morons who literally too dumb and aggressive to think for themselves.

And so on. Having a bad trope associated with character or race is not a good thing and using it as a “point” in discussion only invites others to use tropes you hate against you at which point it comes to a dead end.

Either they're hapless victims or they're a super power capable of defeating the whole Horde on their own. You can't have both lol. And given how consistant their inability to defend much of anything is they might not be as great at defending as you think they are. Just a thought.


The Forsaken thing is flat out incorrect, in that every sentient undead who is among the Forsaken chose to be there and follow Sylvanas. They weren't forced into anything and literally don't have a concept of moral boundaries. BfA treatment of the Forsaken was way worse than anything on Aliance side and it only looks to get worse.

[Aresk]

Alliance will never be allowed to win. Never be allowed to have a real payoff or victory dance. NEVER be allowed to just shit on the Horde and have them then HELP US afterwards. That'll never happen, it'll never be fair and it'll never be even. I'd rather just not bother anymore. I'm tired of it. Light vs Void or some shit is the new direction and I'd love to have everyone pick a faction rather than another forced bullshit thing where it's suddenly "hey guys, the LIGHT of all things is actually totally evil because of reasons" and it's in reality the Alliance saving the Horde from consequences again. The story can't get much worse but that's about the only way.

Jaina led a raid on Dazar'alor and then, one expansion later, is saved by the Horde people she attacked. She personally attacks the Horde characters who are then expected to free her. And all the Horde got for the fight was to have Jaina be described as injured by one NPC and then show up again in the next patch cycle.

[VladlTutushkin]

Either they're hapless victims or they're a super power capable of defeating the whole Horde on their own. You can't have both lol. And given how consistant their inability to defend much of anything is they might not be as great at defending as you think they are. Just a thought.


The Forsaken thing is flat out incorrect, in that every sentient undead who is among the Forsaken chose to be there and follow Sylvanas. They weren't forced into anything and literally don't have a concept of moral boundaries. BfA treatment of the Forsaken was way worse than anything on Aliance side and it only looks to get worse.

Nobody said that they should defeat the “whole horde alone”. They have (supposedly) allies and they also shouldnt even be facing “whole horde” to begin with since that goes against most basic principles of warfare. Any one race can be defeated by entire faction, but entire faction shouldnt be able to just blob up like that. Thats why we have factions, to keep the balance.

Also not according to BtS, it basically described forsaken society as North Korea-like police state with book burning and information control.

And horde is unable to keep a Warchief longer then a few years. Its also “historically” prone to falling under tyrants. Its also “historically” prone to infighting and schisms.

So, that means that all that happened to you in BfA is perfectly fine too! You splintered, lost a warchief and are stupid evil. All in accordance with your previous tendencies.

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Jaina led a raid on Dazar'alor and then, one expansion later, is saved by the Horde people she attacked. She personally attacks the Horde characters who are then expected to free her. And all the Horde got for the fight was to have Jaina be described as injured by one NPC and then show up again in the next patch cycle.

All attack on DA achieved was killing Rastatroll… Not much of a loss , and city wasnt even scratched afterwards.

Besides, she is the main proponent of peace with you, so you better be grateful she actually keeps flip-flopping to like you all of a sudden.

[sighy]

Nobody said that they should defeat the “whole horde alone”. They have (supposedly) allies and they also shouldnt even be facing “whole horde” to begin with since that goes against most basic principles of warfare. Any one race can be defeated by entire faction, but entire faction shouldnt be able to just blob up like that. Thats why we have factions, to keep the balance.

Also not according to BtS, it basically described forsaken society as North Korea-like police state with book burning and information control.

And horde is unable to keep a Warchief longer then a few years. Its also “historically” prone to falling under tyrants. Its also “historically” prone to infighting and schisms.

So, that means that all that happened to you in BfA is perfectly fine too! You splintered, lost a warchief and are stupid evil. All in accordance with your previous tendencies.

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All attack on DA achieved was killing Rastatroll… Not much of a loss , and city wasnt even scratched afterwards.

Besides, she is the main proponent of peace with you, so you better be grateful she actually keeps flip-flopping to like you all of a sudden.

Where in BtS is that described exactly? Unless you mean Calia's screeching just seconds before she got(rightfully) shot. After being found out. Also it's not even suggested anywhere that Sylvanas wants to kill any of them, until she finds out about the Calia thing, because her goal was to make them bitter toward the living, in the same vein she was after Vereesa betrayed her in War Crimes(from her PoV).

The Horde has always had a distinctly Kratocratic premise, with the whole duel to the death to determine leadership thing. Besides 2 out of 6 is russian roulette not a consistant pattern lol.


AS for the whole Kaldorei blitzkreig the whole point of that was to exploit the Aliance not being ready to respond due to contemporary circumstances and misinformation. It's not that hard to wrap your head around(also they didn't need literally all the forces, just enough to overwhelm the garrison Kaldorei left behind, while they went to silithus based on faulty info). You're thinking way harder about it than Blizz ever did.

[VladlTutushkin]

Where in BtS is that described exactly? Unless you mean Calia's screeching just seconds before she got(rightfully) shot. After being found out. Also it's not even suggested anywhere that Sylvanas wants to kill any of them, until she finds out about the Calia thing, because her goal was to make them bitter toward the living, in the same vein she was after Vereesa betrayed her in War Crimes(from her PoV).

The Horde has always had a distinctly Kratocratic premise, with the whole duel to the death to determine leadership thing. Besides 2 out of 6 is russian roulette not a consistant pattern lol.


AS for the whole Kaldorei blitzkreig the whole point of that was to exploit the Aliance not being ready to respond due to contemporary circumstances and misinformation. It's not that hard to wrap your head around(also they didn't need literally all the forces, just enough to overwhelm the garrison Kaldorei left behind, while they went to silithus based on faulty info). You're thinking way harder about it than Blizz ever did.

No, you used the bullshit excuse that “night elves are just losers lol” and i used the “and Horde are morons who always lose warchiefs, have rebellions and cant stay united for a war”.

Because if you want to use bullshit tropes then you may want to remember how Horde also has a LOT of those to use against you.

Meanwhile Alliance should have taken the night elven lands back, or applied pressure on other front so horde would have had to move enough forces there that kaldorei would have taken Ashenvale back on their own.

Its how military alliances work, you dont have to huddle together all the time to present a unified front against an enemy.

And finally - the sheer absolute level of stupidity required to send an army to Silithus when it could have achieved the same results - denying Horde azerite from Ashenvale is one of the most asinine decisions of Blizz.

[geco]

Either they're hapless victims or they're a super power capable of defeating the whole Horde on their own. You can't have both lol. And given how consistant their inability to defend much of anything is they might not be as great at defending as you think they are. Just a thought.

That's exactly what Kaldorei Fans have been complaining about. Check out the latest expansions. When it comes to defending against the Horde, the Night War is really Useless. But when it comes to saving this random forest we don't really care all of a sudden The Night War is the only one that can save it.

And so it always is. When you have to save the world or sacrifice for others. The Kaldorei are the most powerful race of all.
When you have to defend the Kaldorei. The Kaldorei are useless and have no allies.

When it comes to fighting the Legion or going to war with Trolls who don't even care, the Kaldorei have troops to spare. When you have to defend your lands. They are not over. They were just on the other side.

Nobody said that they should defeat the “whole horde alone”. They have (supposedly) allies and they also shouldnt even be facing “whole horde” to begin with since that goes against most basic principles of warfare. Any one race can be defeated by entire faction, but entire faction shouldnt be able to just blob up like that. Thats why we have factions, to keep the balance.

Actually in the War of Thorns he only faced the army of Ogrimar. For all this that others distrust the Warchief.
They never tell us that Sylvanas calls someone from any of the other captiales, but they clarify that she cannot call the Tauren because Baien would notice.

AS for the whole Kaldorei blitzkreig the whole point of that was to exploit the Aliance not being ready to respond due to contemporary circumstances and misinformation. It's not that hard to wrap your head around(also they didn't need literally all the forces, just enough to overwhelm the garrison Kaldorei left behind, while they went to silithus based on faulty info). You're thinking way harder about it than Blizz ever did.

It is also not difficult to understand that the Kaldorei did not let them use:
The army.
Shandris.
Maiev.
Wardens.
Draneis.
Warguen.
Chimeras.
The Cenarius Circle.
Tyrande essentially did nothing.
Or Just send troops through the portal instead of summoning civilians.
(And that the catapults should not reach the tree)


What is difficult to understand is things like that in the whole novel they show us over and over again one or two Hordes killing 10 Kaldorei as if nothing and then they tell us that in truth the Kaldorei caused more casualties than the Horde.

[sighy]

That's exactly what Kaldorei Fans have been complaining about. Check out the latest expansions. When it comes to defending against the Horde, the Night War is really Useless. But when it comes to saving this random forest we don't really care all of a sudden The Night War is the only one that can save it.

And so it always is. When you have to save the world or sacrifice for others. The Kaldorei are the most powerful race of all.
When you have to defend the Kaldorei. The Kaldorei are useless and have no allies.

When it comes to fighting the Legion or going to war with Trolls who don't even care, the Kaldorei have troops to spare. When you have to defend your lands. They are not over. They were just on the other side.



Actually in the War of Thorns he only faced the army of Ogrimar. For all this that others distrust the Warchief.
They never tell us that Sylvanas calls someone from any of the other captiales, but they clarify that she cannot call the Tauren because Baien would notice.




It is also not difficult to understand that the Kaldorei did not let them use:
The army.
Shandris.
Maiev.
Wardens.
Draneis.
Warguen.
Chimeras.
The Cenarius Circle.
Tyrande essentially did nothing.
Or Just send troops through the portal instead of summoning civilians.
(And that the catapults should not reach the tree)


What is difficult to understand is things like that in the whole novel they show us over and over again one or two Hordes killing 10 Kaldorei as if nothing and then they tell us that in truth the Kaldorei caused more casualties than the Horde.

Boils down to show one thing and tell something else otherwise known as the Blizzard special since WoD. But for the War of Thorns specifically:
-Shandris and her forces are stationed in Feralas and were sent to Silithus with an army from the rest. (From the player perspective it is stupid)
-Maiev hates Tyrande and generally does her own thing anyway. (Pretty sure her becoming a pariah and almost killing Malf is still canon too)
-Dreanei just had a huge campaign on Argus so they're likely depleted.
-Worgen have largely moved to Stormwind
-Chimeras aren't really that relevant outside flavor
-Cenarion Circle operates outside the factions and has a lot more than Night Elves in it. (Just like Cenarion Circle)
-Yes Mages and Warlocks would have been better than demolishers, but that's pretty minor, int he grand scheme of things.

There was a lot of Blelf and Forsaken involved in it too(the rogues we know for certain) so it's basically just Baine being left out of the loop, because she knew he'd go crying to Anduin. (Not only because that's exactly what happened when Garry went to Theramore)


The Kaldorei never had a clean win against literally anything, when they weren't carried by firestorm wielding highborne.(Whom they did as much as possible to distance themselves from following WotA) WotA was absolutely catastrophic, WotSS was so catastrophic we still had characters giving shit to Malfurion during Cata, 3rd war was either watch archimonde destroy the tree or blow it up yourself(they never stopped anything, even with Cenarius up to that point), Cata they got rekt all over until Varian came to save them, with his Anime protagonist powers, Legion in Val'sharah was basically a rehash of the novel Stormrage, except Malf looked like a weak idiot and had the single most cringe moment in all of Warcraft.

[VladlTutushkin]

Boils down to show one thing and tell something else otherwise known as the Blizzard special since WoD. But for the War of Thorns specifically:
-Shandris and her forces are stationed in Feralas and were sent to Silithus with an army from the rest. (From the player perspective it is stupid)
-Maiev hates Tyrande and generally does her own thing anyway. (Pretty sure her becoming a pariah and almost killing Malf is still canon too)
-Dreanei just had a huge campaign on Argus so they're likely depleted.
-Worgen have largely moved to Stormwind
-Chimeras aren't really that relevant outside flavor
-Cenarion Circle operates outside the factions and has a lot more than Night Elves in it. (Just like Cenarion Circle)
-Yes Mages and Warlocks would have been better than demolishers, but that's pretty minor, int he grand scheme of things.

There was a lot of Blelf and Forsaken involved in it too(the rogues we know for certain) so it's basically just Baine being left out of the loop, because she knew he'd go crying to Anduin. (Not only because that's exactly what happened when Garry went to Theramore)


The Kaldorei never had a clean win against literally anything, when they weren't carried by firestorm wielding highborne.(Whom they did as much as possible to distance themselves from following WotA) WotA was absolutely catastrophic, WotSS was so catastrophic we still had characters giving shit to Malfurion during Cata, 3rd war was either watch archimonde destroy the tree or blow it up yourself(they never stopped anything, even with Cenarius up to that point), Cata they got rekt all over until Varian came to save them, with his Anime protagonist powers, Legion in Val'sharah was basically a rehash of the novel Stormrage, except Malf looked like a weak idiot and had the single most cringe moment in all of Warcraft.

And Horde ALWAYS, since First War was written to crumble into infighting, revolt and eventually splinter and fail to achieve its goals.

From Gul’Dan splintering to go to Broken Isles to Garrosh vs Vol’Jin to most recent Saurfang’s rebellion.

But for some reason you seem to have a problem with Saurfang’s actions and how it all ended.

I wonder why, it is after all, Horde’s classic writing trope - failing to win a war due to infighting.

[sighy]

And Horde ALWAYS, since First War was written to crumble into infighting, revolt and eventually splinter and fail to achieve its goals.

From Gul’Dan splintering to go to Broken Isles to Garrosh vs Vol’Jin to most recent Saurfang’s rebellion.

But for some reason you seem to have a problem with Saurfang’s actions and how it all ended.

I wonder why, it is after all, Horde’s classic writing trope - failing to win a war due to infighting.

My problem with Saurfang's rebellion isn't that he opposed Sylvanas. It's basically everything else about that storyline and what it meant for the expansion's premise. Gul'dan's betrayal happened, in a decisive moment near the war's conclusion and Vol'jin had been extensively antagonised and nearly assassinated, before he even started considering it.

His code of honor was extremely inconsistent, he gave up right away, tried to commit suicide several times, deserted his faction when they arguably needed him most, only only did something, because Anduin asked him to and only achieved anything, because plot decided Sylvanas suddenly has brain damage or something. That's real hero of the Horde material right there rofl. (I do have some leftover resentment over the unfulfilled promise of our choice having consequences given that they directly said it at Blizzcon stage.) Also there just weren't any stakes in it really, because Sylvanas's actions against the rebels were purely reactionary to their desertion, sabotage and/or treason, which means that their issues were basically "She is too mean to the existential threat we wanted to dismantle originally!" /facepalm