The gods are 3d printed? (9.2)

[Varodoc]

There is no need for a retcon, the new info about the First Ones can easily be integrated with info from the Chronicles.

In the Chronicles it is said that the Universe was created as a result of the clash between Light and Void.

Taking the new info into account, we can speculate that it wasn't just a "generic abstract clash between two forces", but simply a kind of war between factions of First Ones. A faction that followed order (the Light is orderly, pristine, lawful) and a faction that followed chaos (the Void is chaotic, madness-inducing, insidious). The chaotic First Ones then went on to become the Void Lords. Blizzard already recycled Kerrigan so they can recycle Amon and the Xel'naga too.

The Warcraft franchise was a rip-off of Warhammer so it would be poetic if the narrative shifted from Good vs. Evil, Mortals vs. Sargeras, to Order vs. Chaos. As Archbishop Benedictus said, "There is no Good, no Evil, there is only Power".

We see that both Light and Void have their good and evils, BfA makes that clear with Yrel and the Lightbound.

With the Crusade you could make the excuse that they were twisted by a Dreadlord. You can't with the Lightbound. They are undeniably waging war in the name of the Naaru.

People online as usual jump to conclusions. That Chronicles is written from the perspective of the Titans doesn't mean it's non-canon, because the Titans aren't idiots who don't know anything. Rather, it is canon but correct up to a certain point. The Titans might have identified the catalyst for the creation of the Cosmos but not the precise dynamics of it.

So in short I subscribe to the theory that the Void Lords are actually Rebellious First Ones. This would explain why the Void Lords are so almighty and unfathomably strong that they can't even manifest in the physical plane; while both Sargeras and the Janitor can.

[Pendragon]

They've gone too far(and poorly) with the reveals. Nothing on azeroth is mysterious anymore. Remember how mysterious the titans used to be? The wild gods? Elune? Bleh.

[Unholyground]

The first ones were the first sentient beings that came into existence within the Warcraft universe, their actions lead to the creation of the other realms. We just don't know how much of it may have been an accident or a chain reaction to what they created with Zereth Mortis.

[TheFirstOnes]

I'm confused, are you saying the First Ones are evil too?

To say that ANY power is "evil" is to be dishonest. Each power serves a function that was designed by the First Ones. No Cosmic Power is inherently evil, nor is each "Pantheon" inherently evil, as they're supposed to be physical embodiments of each Force, of the First Ones' will.

[Aucald]

To say that ANY power is "evil" is to be dishonest. Each power serves a function that was designed by the First Ones. No Cosmic Power is inherently evil, nor is each "Pantheon" inherently evil, as they're supposed to be physical embodiments of each Force, of the First Ones' will.

"Evil" is almost always a subjective category or classification, applied to those forces or entities who oppose goals we deem to be good or just. That being said, I don't believe the First Ones really set the agenda for or cast all things as an embodiment for a specific aspect of their design.

[Mehrunes]

Ah like Metzen was doing all along. "Why when we killed the old gods did nothing happen" (even though if you had half a brain that guy wouldn't have asked at Blizzcon since we went in like antibodies attacking the organs) Metzen:Have you SEEN the Cataclysm!?!? My response to him would have been "Uhhh yeah it was caused by Deathwing breaking the world pillar as he emerged" Meanwhile Chronicle came out eventually and proved his idiotic statement wrong. Metzen was 100000000x worse than the current writers because of his ridiculous ego.

Except it wasn't Metzen who said that. It was Afrasiabi. You know, the guy who replaced him and started your glorious post-Metzen era of the lore. Metzen only chimed in after Afrasiabi. Funny how you couldn't check that in-between your bouts of accusing everyone who doesn't like the story of simply "parroting the streamers" and providing nothing in support of your claims about the Jailer being a riveting villain even when pressed on that. Also, the current writers totes legit have no ridiculous ego indeed. That's why they hyped the ending of BfA up as pretty much WoW's magnum opus.

[TheFirstOnes]

"Evil" is almost always a subjective category or classification, applied to those forces or entities who oppose goals we deem to be good or just. That being said, I don't believe the First Ones really set the agenda for or cast all things as an embodiment for a specific aspect of their design.

What do you mean?

[Aucald]

What do you mean?

I consider the First Ones to be watchmaker-type gods, in that they set a machine (in this case the Warcraft metacosm) into motion and then essentially departed, considering their work done and trusting in the machine and its chosen attendants to keep things running smoothly. They're not really in the mold of eternally present, omniscient, and omnipotent gods whose presence and/or influence predicates all things at all times, and as they've long since departed things have essentially devolved and various parties have been left to pursue their own interests, which could run counter to the First Ones' collective interests or design.

[MikeBogina]

Just because something is created doesn't mean that it's ordered or obedient. That's one of the major themes of Jurassic Park, for instance. One can organize things and those can still become chaotically arranged later. Unless I'm just completely misunderstanding your sentiment here, in which case I'd love to hear more.

I guess we'll have to learn more of the creator's intentions when making Fel, Shadow and Life(i add life, because it can be very chaotic like Jurassic Park). Those 3 in their nature are chaotic, so I would assume that was their purpose, unless Fel was supposed to be a green version of Order, Shadow was a dark version of Light and Life was well not death. Now there's individuals of even the Order side who can turn against the plan, like Sargeras and Zovaal.

You mention Jurassic Park and I automatically think of the Park Builder Games. My intention is never the same as John Hammond's, I intentionally put as many dangerous and hard to control dinosaurs in a park for the reason. I intend for them to be chaotic.

There's also the possibility that Blizzard hasn't thought this all out yet, but it feels like we're going to learn that the "First Ones" are basically scientists experimenting on this universe to see what happens. I also think they're also the Titans who have lost their memories while trying to put themselves into the central part of the experiment(possibly Zovaal's crime, seems he can mindwipe the Primus, so why not vulnerable Titans).

[TheFirstOnes]

I consider the First Ones to be watchmaker-type gods, in that they set a machine (in this case the Warcraft metacosm) into motion and then essentially departed, considering their work done and trusting in the machine and its chosen attendants to keep things running smoothly. They're not really in the mold of eternally present, omniscient, and omnipotent gods whose presence and/or influence predicates all things at all times, and as they've long since departed things have essentially devolved and various parties have been left to pursue their own interests, which could run counter to the First Ones' collective interests or design.

Until you realize the First Ones most likely never really left (Especially since WE are in their prophecies in Korthia, etc. Meaning it's highly possible they authored our existences to serve as the "main characters" of the story, or maybe just the fucking Automa did that, tbh, idk), and the Sepulcher's knowledge alone is enough to grant Zovaal literal dominion and control over the Cosmos. Sure, forces can do their own thing. But it is by the will of the First Ones that they do their own thing to begin with.

Would imo be no different to, let's just say the Creator in Umineko, or the Overvoid in DC, and how they handle shit in their verses. They are pure, supreme beings of fiction that cannot be perceived or known to by the beings of that specific verse, so much so that not even the company and/or author (author's?) themselves could figure out their existences fully, as they're so above anything we've seen. Being a watchmaker/clockmaker alone isn't a good enough reason to justify the will of the Cosmic Forces, as they are creations of the First Ones regardless. Zovaal thinks himself clever for wanting to break the Cosmic Balance, but the fool doesn't realize he's trying to break the cycle of beings who have already deemed his fate LONG before he was ever a thought to begin with. That's how it works.

Granted, that's probably why Zovaal wanted the Sepulcher to begin with, so he could be beyond such limitations by breaking his limited yet divine title, but by having such notions, he himself has been damned to a narrative not even he can break. A book he can read and potentially rewrite, sure, but a library he cannot tear.

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Almost every "supreme" god is a Watchmaker. Doesn't mean they themselves are limited by their own creations, however.

[Darkimpact]

Life without death is cancerous, light without darkness scorches everything. It's Ying and Yang, Good and Evil, etc. This is duality as a baseline idea. I doubt the first ones were "good guys" by mortal definitions. Think more neutral background forces like a lion killing a gazelle only to get stricken with a disease and die so the bugs can tear apart the lions corpse. Is nature evil for creating such a scenario?

[Al Gorefiend]

We know what Zovaal's current goals are now, though; he states them pretty resolutely at the close of the SoD raid: "I will forge a new reality, where all shall serve... me." He openly questions the First Ones' design (affirmatively confirming he seeks to suborn it, whether or not it is already flawed), and also implies that it is already flawed, which may or may not be the case. Developer statements have long been confirmed as effective canon, as well - this isn't something where you can take a maybe stance, or pick and choose based on your desired fanon or what have you. If a developer positively says "this is the reason X is Y," then that is the reason, a concept in fan communities commonly called "word of god."

I'm less interested in Zovaal's rationale in this particular debate, because either way you slice it, it points to the First Ones' designs being neither inerrant nor immune to interference. Whether it was the other Eternal Ones or Zovaal who originally messed it up doesn't matter, because *someone* messed it up, and it wasn't originally designed to be as it is now.

Broken is a matter of perspective as Zovaal is saying it. He, Sylvanas and the Mawsworn think it's broken because souls aren't given free choice for how to spend the rest of their eternal afterlife, you're forced to go where the arbiter puts you, thus broken in his eyes.

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Ah like Metzen was doing all along. "Why when we killed the old gods did nothing happen" (even though if you had half a brain that guy wouldn't have asked at Blizzcon since we went in like antibodies attacking the organs) Metzen:Have you SEEN the Cataclysm!?!? My response to him would have been "Uhhh yeah it was caused by Deathwing breaking the world pillar as he emerged" Meanwhile Chronicle came out eventually and proved his idiotic statement wrong. Metzen was 100000000x worse than the current writers because of his ridiculous ego.

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Yes because we've already been shown the cyclical nature via the Naaru. There is heavy implication that what Zovaal is against are those cyclical natures but specifically that of life and death which if you notice in the Broker version of the Cosmo chart they do in fact feed into each other implying it's a 2 way street. Sargeras was a force of Order and turned to Fel.

Metzen got too excited. Blowhard statements happen at cons all the time, especially during Q&As.

[DatToffer]

There is no need for a retcon, the new info about the First Ones can easily be integrated with info from the Chronicles.

In the Chronicles it is said that the Universe was created as a result of the clash between Light and Void.

Taking the new info into account, we can speculate that it wasn't just a "generic abstract clash between two forces", but simply a kind of war between factions of First Ones. A faction that followed order (the Light is orderly, pristine, lawful) and a faction that followed chaos (the Void is chaotic, madness-inducing, insidious). The chaotic First Ones then went on to become the Void Lords. Blizzard already recycled Kerrigan so they can recycle Amon and the Xel'naga too.

The Warcraft franchise was a rip-off of Warhammer so it would be poetic if the narrative shifted from Good vs. Evil, Mortals vs. Sargeras, to Order vs. Chaos. As Archbishop Benedictus said, "There is no Good, no Evil, there is only Power".

We see that both Light and Void have their good and evils, BfA makes that clear with Yrel and the Lightbound.

With the Crusade you could make the excuse that they were twisted by a Dreadlord. You can't with the Lightbound. They are undeniably waging war in the name of the Naaru.

People online as usual jump to conclusions. That Chronicles is written from the perspective of the Titans doesn't mean it's non-canon, because the Titans aren't idiots who don't know anything. Rather, it is canon but correct up to a certain point. The Titans might have identified the catalyst for the creation of the Cosmos but not the precise dynamics of it.

So in short I subscribe to the theory that the Void Lords are actually Rebellious First Ones. This would explain why the Void Lords are so almighty and unfathomably strong that they can't even manifest in the physical plane; while both Sargeras and the Janitor can.

Nice, you're getting closer to what people have been explaining to you. All by yourself.

Now if you extend that to "It was not just Void and Light, it was the six Cosmic Forces" you'll manage to fit the ingame Broker's book into that.

[shise]

I think that it would be a good thing afterall...

Even tought it means peeing a bit all over the existing lore... but then again. We are at this point where we have lost all sense of mystery.
I wouldn´t mind pretending that everything was a big bad interpretation of reality, and set us back to square 0 in terms of knowing the origs of creation. That is actually pretty realistic as we have (as human civilizations) experience it outselves a lot.

For so long we tought that we could make it rain by dancing, or that Earth was flat, that some deity created us... Some of that stuff has been proven completely wrong, other is unknown... SO I don´t see how it would be bad to switch certain lore ideas which we tought known.

[Varodoc]

Nice, you're getting closer to what people have been explaining to you. All by yourself.

Now if you extend that to "It was not just Void and Light, it was the six Cosmic Forces" you'll manage to fit the ingame Broker's book into that.

You're not funny.

You twisting the words of Blizzard employees like you did with that video is also not funny.

[DatToffer]

You're not funny.

You twisting the words of Blizzard employees like you did with that video is also not funny.

Sorry, I'll let the train of your thoughts catch up at its own speed

[ProphetFlume]

I can’t decide if that headline sounds more like a modern version of “the revolution will be televised” or a modern Phillip k dick novel. But it’s certainly evocative.

[Aucald]

Broken is a matter of perspective as Zovaal is saying it. He, Sylvanas and the Mawsworn think it's broken because souls aren't given free choice for how to spend the rest of their eternal afterlife, you're forced to go where the arbiter puts you, thus broken in his eyes.

I'm not solely referring to Sylvanas and Zovaal's proclamation about the First Ones' "flawed design," but also the fact that the "machinery of Death" got broken with the effect of sending all souls directly to the Maw, bypassing the Arbiter and their judgment entirely and consigning them to WoW's version of hell. One way or another, the system is indeed broken.

- - - Updated - - -

Until you realize the First Ones most likely never really left (Especially since WE are in their prophecies in Korthia, etc. Meaning it's highly possible they authored our existences to serve as the "main characters" of the story, or maybe just the fucking Automa did that, tbh, idk), and the Sepulcher's knowledge alone is enough to grant Zovaal literal dominion and control over the Cosmos. Sure, forces can do their own thing. But it is by the will of the First Ones that they do their own thing to begin with.

Would imo be no different to, let's just say the Creator in Umineko, or the Overvoid in DC, and how they handle shit in their verses. They are pure, supreme beings of fiction that cannot be perceived or known to by the beings of that specific verse, so much so that not even the company and/or author (author's?) themselves could figure out their existences fully, as they're so above anything we've seen. Being a watchmaker/clockmaker alone isn't a good enough reason to justify the will of the Cosmic Forces, as they are creations of the First Ones regardless. Zovaal thinks himself clever for wanting to break the Cosmic Balance, but the fool doesn't realize he's trying to break the cycle of beings who have already deemed his fate LONG before he was ever a thought to begin with. That's how it works.

Granted, that's probably why Zovaal wanted the Sepulcher to begin with, so he could be beyond such limitations by breaking his limited yet divine title, but by having such notions, he himself has been damned to a narrative not even he can break. A book he can read and potentially rewrite, sure, but a library he cannot tear.

- - - Updated - - -

Almost every "supreme" god is a Watchmaker. Doesn't mean they themselves are limited by their own creations, however.

In fiction, the notion of a "watchmaker deity" is one where said deity or deities creates the machinery of existence with an eye towards its own self-regulation and ordered growth, and then steps aside and lets said machinery do its thing. A watchmaker is both impersonal and aloof, distant and uninvolved with their own creation - they don't actively interfere or mediate with its workings, including any life that arises within it. This is in contrast to mythological god-figures that involve themselves directly or indirectly with their worshippers or creations, either to amuse themselves or because they feel essential responsibility and/or affection for their creations. As for the First Ones' "predicting" the Azerothians becoming Maw Walkers and arriving in the Shadowlands, those are largely the suppositions of the Broker Ta'lora and may well not represent the First Ones' action designs and could just be post-facto justification or flawed understanding. It's also worth noting that a sepulcher is actually an elaborate tomb where the dead are laid to rest, so the Sepulcher of the First Ones could indeed be where the creators were laid to rest after their job was done, explaining why they're not around or actively involving themselves with their creation.

We know very little about the nature or personality of the First Ones, but we can largely infer they're not involved due to their lack of active presence in the story, even as an Eternal One is attempting to subvert their design and rewrite all of reality using the tools they left lying around in Zereth Mortis. Not to mention the fact that a primordial force like Death was subverted and corrupted to enable Zovaal to escape his prison in the Maw.

[TheFirstOnes]

You're not funny.

You twisting the words of Blizzard employees like you did with that video is also not funny.

You and the other guy need to calm down, seriously. I get not agreeing with eachother, but I think it’s getting to a point where things are rather aggressive now, and that in itself is unhealthy, don’t y’all think?

As for the others, I think it’s pretty clear in of itself that Light and Shadow aren’t the most important powers in the Cosmos anymore, same fact goes with the other 4. And it’s highly possible we may have to deal with the First Ones AFTER we deal with the Light and Shadow crap.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not solely referring to Sylvanas and Zovaal's proclamation about the First Ones' "flawed design," but also the fact that the "machinery of Death" got broken with the effect of sending all souls directly to the Maw, bypassing the Arbiter and their judgment entirely and consigning them to WoW's version of hell. One way or another, the system is indeed broken.

- - - Updated - - -



In fiction, the notion of a "watchmaker deity" is one where said deity or deities creates the machinery of existence with an eye towards its own self-regulation and ordered growth, and then steps aside and lets said machinery do its thing. A watchmaker is both impersonal and aloof, distant and uninvolved with their own creation - they don't actively interfere or mediate with its workings, including any life that arises within it. This is in contrast to mythological god-figures that involve themselves directly or indirectly with their worshippers or creations, either to amuse themselves or because they feel essential responsibility and/or affection for their creations. As for the First Ones' "predicting" the Azerothians becoming Maw Walkers and arriving in the Shadowlands, those are largely the suppositions of the Broker Ta'lora and may well not represent the First Ones' action designs and could just be post-facto justification or flawed understanding. It's also worth noting that a sepulcher is actually an elaborate tomb where the dead are laid to rest, so the Sepulcher of the First Ones could indeed be where the creators were laid to rest after their job was done, explaining why they're not around or actively involving themselves with their creation.

We know very little about the nature or personality of the First Ones, but we can largely infer they're not involved due to their lack of active presence in the story, even as an Eternal One is attempting to subvert their design and rewrite all of reality using the tools they left lying around in Zereth Mortis. Not to mention the fact that a primordial force like Death was subverted and corrupted to enable Zovaal to escape his prison in the Maw.

I know what it means, that’s why I made the comparisons above to begin with, as they themselves aren’t personally invested in their own creations affairs, that in itself doesn’t limit the First Ones, really. As for the prophecies, they are still written within Korthia itself, so it is still very much possible for them to be true, regardless of how the attendants interpreted such prophecies. Hell, they straight up confirm such assumptions of our potential after studying our Anima.

And a Sepulcher can also just be a tomb…but not of bodies per say. It could very well just be a tomb of secrets, akin to the Sepulcher of Knowledge at Maldraxxus, no less.

And I think that in itself doesn’t break the First Ones’ design tho, as even the First Ones themselves had to manipulate their own primal powers to make existence a thing to begin with. Changing the rules a bit doesn’t harm anybody. Otherwise, the Legion would’ve been detrimental.

[Aucald]

I know what it means, that’s why I made the comparisons above to begin with, as they themselves aren’t personally invested in their own creations affairs, that in itself doesn’t limit the First Ones, really. As for the prophecies, they are still written within Korthia itself, so it is still very much possible for them to be true, regardless of how the attendants interpreted such prophecies. Hell, they straight up confirm such assumptions of our potential after studying our Anima.

And a Sepulcher can also just be a tomb…but not of bodies per say. It could very well just be a tomb of secrets, akin to the Sepulcher of Knowledge at Maldraxxus, no less.

And I think that in itself doesn’t break the First Ones’ design tho, as even the First Ones themselves had to manipulate their own primal powers to make existence a thing to begin with. Changing the rules a bit doesn’t harm anybody. Otherwise, the Legion would’ve been detrimental.

Your notion that "almost every supreme god is a watchmaker" seemed to belie that you understood the concept as popularly used because most mythological deities aren't in the watchmaker mold at all. As for the prophecies, as already stated they're both open to interpretation, and the notion that they involve us is largely promulgated by a third party (a Broker) with a vested interest in selling us on the concept - the Brokers being many things, but trustworthy isn't really paramount among those things. A sepulcher can indeed contain more than bodies, but the fact that unlike the Sepulcher of Knowledge, the Sepulcher of the First Ones is literally named "the tomb of the First Ones," implying more directly that the bodies or essences of the First Ones could well be entombed within (although this isn't guaranteed, it is definitely a noteworthy distinction).

The machinery of Death has been referred to as "broken" by the developers themselves, which is pretty conclusive that the First Ones' designs were indeed broken by Zovaal when he altered how Death functioned in order to empower himself. As for the Legion, they were *very* detrimental to life in the physical universe at least, setting countless planets and civilizations ablaze in their crusade to snuff out all life at Sargeras' behest. Whether or not that constitutes a break in the First Ones' designs is unknown, though.