The gods are 3d printed? (9.2)

[Biomega]

So despite what zoomer OP seems to think, machines can build things without it being "3D printing". So yes they may have been using the Big Ball of Creation™ to poop out gods, universes, afterlives, and whatnot, but that doesn't make the process akin to or even remotely comparable to "3D printing". In a creator-driven cosmology it totally makes sense that there's a hierarchy of creation - someone created the topmost layer (multiverse or whatever), including all the creators/deities in that layer; then THOSE creators/deities created the next-lower layer, and so on. Who knows, maybe 10 years from now we find out about The Before Ones who created the First Ones.

[Chend]

So despite what zoomer OP seems to think, machines can build things without it being "3D printing".

What does that even mean? Not in real life. How are lifeforms being created in WoW? I don't fucking know. Are the eternals even made out of flesh? What is consciousness in WoW? We don't even really know what it is in real life.

[Ersula]

Presumably at least one of them was a bad dude.

The Titans may or may not have been some of the First Ones.

But as far as we can tell they "didn't" *make* the cosmic forces. The cosmic forces predate them. The First Ones' technology *combines* the cosmic forces to create life & matter.

Note: "Light" predates the First Ones. The Naaru did not. Same goes for "Void" and then the "Void Lords" came later, supposedly these forms of life came into being later. Hell, perhaps even these unplanned forms of life are what destroyed the First Ones in the first place...

[Mace]

It's really hard to assign RL concepts to Fantasy extremes such as Order and Chaos, but I would describe Love and Creativity rather as benevolent aspects of Chaos, not Order. Very superficially put, Love makes you ignore pure logic, and when exercising Creativity, you deliberately let your imagination wander, instead of staying in the "tried and true" paths.

Well order and chaos is interesting can have both positive and negative aspects if twisted.. While order is good, forcorder that ipinges on freedom is bad.. we call that authoritarianism.

Liberty is essential, but not necessarily anarchy, we need the liberty to choose how to order our lives, but our lives need order of some sort we have the right ot determine that.

It's an interesting concept of love being tied more to choas but a benevolent/good side of i. You're probably right in the chaos concept of wow anyway.. when we use the term chaos in language, it is usually the negative side of random or infinite complexity.

But you could philosophise, that love is rooted in order , and ore can be very complex sometimes it seems chaotic.. this is the arcane afterall.. it seemed chaotic because it aws so complex, but it isn't.

You give me much to ponder on. They could take the freedom and love thing as a side of chaos. In the living world, basically all the cosmic forces play a role. It's interesting if they can show them playing a role for both good and evil.. and really how we use them in the great beyond is based on our morality, while these things aren't necessarily having a orality to them.

[Varodoc]

Well order and chaos is interesting can have both positive and negative aspects if twisted.. While order is good, forcorder that ipinges on freedom is bad.. we call that authoritarianism.

Liberty is essential, but not necessarily anarchy, we need the liberty to choose how to order our lives, but our lives need order of some sort we have the right ot determine that.

It's an interesting concept of love being tied more to choas but a benevolent/good side of i. You're probably right in the chaos concept of wow anyway.. when we use the term chaos in language, it is usually the negative side of random or infinite complexity.

But you could philosophise, that love is rooted in order , and ore can be very complex sometimes it seems chaotic.. this is the arcane afterall.. it seemed chaotic because it aws so complex, but it isn't.

You give me much to ponder on. They could take the freedom and love thing as a side of chaos. In the living world, basically all the cosmic forces play a role. It's interesting if they can show them playing a role for both good and evil.. and really how we use them in the great beyond is based on our morality, while these things aren't necessarily having a orality to them.

Chaos = Fel = Demons is constantly shown as an insidious force of evil and destruction. What you say about love and chaos is touching and all but has nothing to do with the Warcraft universe.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

At first I also thought that First Ones are some kind of assholes, but when I realized who they might be and how the process of creation works. I started to feel really bad for them. How much they sacrificed to create everything and how they are being constantly humiliated and killed like lesser pests.

[Mace]

This discussion reminds me of a very old W40k god, whose only goal was to stop time.

Like, that was his idea of Order. A universe that stays still. Nothing moves, nothing changes.

An excess of Order could lead to extremes that would be just as dangerous as an excess of Disorder.

It's worth exploring.. but because most of us don't atually understand these concepets fully, i hope they don't go into too much detail.. unless they have some really insightful or wise person on the creative team that actually understands thesee things and can share them with us through the medium of story telling.

[DatToffer]

Chaos = Fel = Demons is constantly shown as an insidious force of evil and destruction. What you say about love and chaos is touching and all but has nothing to do with the Warcraft universe.

Then what wee need is more examples that Order isn't necessarily good. Like they did in the mag'har intro quests, where we were shown that Light can be a bitch too.

For example, in Ulduar the Constellar was ready to reboot our asses because things didn't go as the Titans planned.

And as a counter example for Fel and Demons, there exists an item that states that all demons don't do well in chaos and some need a special orb to be enraged. It may just be for the races who weren't originally demons, it may be that demons are not always rage fueled killing machines.

Also, the Burning Legion army was formed by Sargeras. He turned them into a war machine and he was a Titan. So you get an Order representative which turned a horde of Chaotic demons into an all powerful army.

The point is, both Order and Disorder don't mean good. Which is why you need both of them to have balance.

It's worth exploring.. but because most of us don't atually understand these concepets fully, i hope they don't go into too much detail.. unless they have some really insightful or wise person on the creative team that actually understands thesee things and can share them with us through the medium of story telling.

Yeah totally. The idea is that Order is a prime obstacle to freedom.

[Varodoc]

The point is, both Order and Disorder don't mean good. Which is why you need both of them to have balance.

Or maybe they should just be wiped out.

Why would you keep around creatures that are intentionally evil and constantly spread misery and destruction?

[Mace]

Chaos = Fel = Demons is constantly shown as an insidious force of evil and destruction. What you say about love and chaos is touching and all but has nothing to do with the Warcraft universe.

but until recently all things associated with the light were good, pure and seemingly holy, but then they took this authoritarianism tyranny to it.

But to be honest that sort of thing is better placed in Order, not in the light. where the light concept of wow gets bad is when it holds no reckoning or justice, but is just nice about everything.

Also it's about exploring what these things could mean. If the light could have a bad side, and the void isn't intrinsically evil, surely there can be aspects to chaos that are good.. aspects that stimulate progress, breaking down stagnation, aspects that lend to liberty boosting creativity.

Sometimes the way to break stagnation is a little bit of disruption - it's not the solution every time, but sometimes it is. - it's not the only thing essential to progress, but it can produce positive things if you don't go on a bender.

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Yeah totally. The idea is that Order is a prime obstacle to freedom.

Balance is the vital thing, there is an optimal balance Would be interesting if each race hearkened to one fo these concepts primarily as their general disposition.

Night elves would be balance
Orcs - chaos? (illidari elves too)
HIgh elves would be order (but void elves disorder,
Undead would be domination
Draenei - Light
Humans - equality
Trolls - Trickery chaos??

[Varodoc]

but until recently all things associated with the light were good, pure and seemingly holy, but then they took this authoritarianism tyranny to it.

But to be honest that sort of thing is better placed in Order, not in the light. where the light concept of wow gets bad is when it holds no reckoning or justice, but is just nice about everything.

Also it's about exploring what these things could mean. If the light could have a bad side, and the void isn't intrinsically evil, surely there can be aspects to chaos that are good.. aspects that stimulate progress, breaking down stagnation, aspects that lend to liberty boosting creativity.

Sometimes the way to break stagnation is a little bit of disruption - it's not the solution every time, but sometimes it is. - it's not the only thing essential to progress, but it can produce positive things if you don't go on a bender.

All these forces are weapons and such they are neither good nor evil. Just like a knife can be used to stab a pregnant woman or stab the guy trying to stab a pregnant woman, these weapons can also be used for good.

We have examples of good and evil Light-users. Good Light-users include the MU Army of the Light (Turalyon for example) and the Naaru A'dal, while Evil Light-users would include the Scarlet Crusade and the Naaru Xe'ra.

We also have examples of good and evil Void-users. Good Void-users are the Ren'dorei (Alleria, Magister Umbric...), while Evil Void-users are the Void Lords, the Old Gods, the Twilight's Hammer.

Fel users? Name me one example of a good Fel user aside from maybe the Player character and the Warlock Order hall (although many of them are very shady by mere virtue of being Warlocks), frankly I'll wait.

There aren't any. Aside from very few mortals, all other Fel users are clearly just vile monsters and so it would be good if they were just wiped out. I doubt anyone would care if the Legion was exterminated.

So why exactly would these forces *need* to be kept around in balance if all those who practise them are unmistakably evil?

The idea that all forces should exist and be balance, like someone else said above, is just a silly excuse from Blizzard to not have to explain anything. Demons (99.9% of the Fel users in the Cosmos) could be wiped out and no one would mourn them.

As I said at the beginning, Fel is a weapon. It's neither good nor evil. But when the vast majority of people use that weapon for evil (the Legion, the Shadow Council, and so on), maybe it should be eliminated entirely along with those who practise it.

[DatToffer]

Or maybe they should just be wiped out.

Why would you keep around creatures that are intentionally evil and constantly spread misery and destruction?

Because one day, they may be the only thing that can fight off the big star men who wants to shape worlds as they and only they see fit.

It's true that Titans and Demons are still on the old pattern of "benevolent makers" and "evil evil destroyers". But we've seen that Titans are not that good to mortals, so who know what might await.

Fel users? Name me one example of a good Fel user aside from maybe the Player character and the Warlock Order hall (although many of them are very shady by mere virtue of being Warlocks), frankly I'll wait.

There aren't any. Aside from very few mortals, all other Fel users are clearly just vile monsters and so it would be good if they were just wiped out. I doubt anyone would care if the Legion was exterminated.

You've just mentioned them. The Warlock order hall. Why don't you want to take them into account ?

The thing is that we've seen Disorder turned bad. And we didn't see much Order turned bad (Except for arguably, Sargeras). But Disorder is a part of the cosmic balance and thus we can only speculate about what would happen if it didn't exist.

Also it's about exploring what these things could mean. If the light could have a bad side, and the void isn't intrinsically evil, surely there can be aspects to chaos that are good.. aspects that stimulate progress, breaking down stagnation, aspects that lend to liberty boosting creativity.

I'm one hundred percent for this. Chaos is freedom and change. Things you can't stop ultimately. The fact that in fiction it is mostly represented as anarchy and destruction tells more about us as a society than about the concept itself, imo.

Balance is the vital thing, there is an optimal balance Would be interesting if each race hearkened to one fo these concepts primarily as their general disposition.

Night elves would be balance
Orcs - chaos? (illidari elves too)
HIgh elves would be order (but void elves disorder,
Undead would be domination
Draenei - Light
Humans - equality
Trolls - Trickery chaos??

I'm a little less sold on that idea. The point and strength of being a mortal at the crossing of all those forces, is that freewill allows individual balance. So you can lean on whatever forces you want. Of course there would be cultural inclinations, but I don't think it's enough to go AoS on Azeroth and attribute a force to each race.

[Varodoc]

Because one day, they may be the only thing that can fight off the big star men who wants to shape worlds as they and only they see fit.

It's true that Titans and Demons are still on the old pattern of "benevolent makers" and "evil evil destroyers". But we've seen that Titans are not that good to mortals, so who know what might await.

At the same time we see that Demons care about "protecting the cosmos from the Void" only when it's a Fel Titan telling them to do so. Otherwise they only care about destruction.

Demons are so inherently evil and despicable that Sargeras literally had to corrupt an entire race of Arcane users to act as his top strategists, because he couldn't rely on the demon brutes.

You've just mentioned them. The Warlock order hall. Why don't you want to take them into account ?

Because they are """"good""" only by virtue of fighting the Legion alongside other Order halls.

While in reality they're all power-hungry and shady individuals, the thirst for Fel by nature is insatiable. And thus as per the facts, the term "good" here is used very loosely.

And depending on how you RP your Warlock, even the PC Warlock is a fucking repulsive individual. He could be both a Warlock and a Sylvanas loyalist, one of the most scummy and vile mortals imaginable

Don't tell me that someone would play a warlock and a Sylvanas loyalist to be the good guy

[Mic_128]

The forces of Disorder literally killed the entire Pantheon of Titans(Order) and destroyed countless worlds. Where is the cycle/balance in that?

There was balance before Sargeras flipped his lid and joined the forces of Chaos/Fel. Having one of the strongest members of Law now on their side, Chaos had become unbalanced (and potentially in the process of eradicating most of the living worlds in the universe, unbalancing Death as well?)

None of this makes any sense. We know from Shadowlands that the First Ones made the Eternal Ones, but they were all neutral, none of them were made bad, or evil, or wanting to consume the rest of them, or wanting to undo everything, or anything at all resembling Void or Disorder. So it makes no sense why would they create such forces in the other dimension.

We have no idea what the motivation behind the First Ones was in creating the universe anyway. Perhaps this is all just a game? Cosmic reality TV?

Although I’ve used that logic before. But it is also flawed. In an infinitely expanding universe, life can also infinitely propagate. Over population isn't a justification for death.

Just because the universe is expanding does not mean that more habitable planets and suns are going to appear out of nowhere. All that means in practical terms, is that distances between suns and galaxies will continue to grow. If no one dies, a world will be overwhelmed pretty quickly, and not just because of people having babies. Imagine hordes of mice, rats, flies, mosquitoes, all no longer able to die. All those animals laying hundreds of eggs in a go because only a few survive, are now all surviving. Plants no longer die and continue to grow forever. (We actually see this in-game to an extent, with the Botani and the Overgrowth in Alternate-Nagrand.) You age and age as your body shrivels and twists as the cells continue to fail to reproduce accurately.

Depending on the rules, it could mean things like cancers and tumours can't be destroyed either, as those cancer cells can no longer die, as well as everyone being in a constant state of starvation as the plant or animal cells can't 'die', and be broken down to digest.

[DatToffer]

At the same time we see that Demons care about "protecting the cosmos from the Void" only when it's a Fel Titan telling them to do so. Otherwise they only care about destruction.

Demons are so inherently evil and despicable that Sargeras literally had to corrupt an entire race of Arcane users to act as his top strategists, because he couldn't rely on the demon brutes.

Because they are """"good""" only by virtue of fighting the Legion alongside other Order halls.

While in reality they're all power-hungry and shady individuals, the thirst for Fel by nature is insatiable. And thus as per the facts, the term "good" here is used very loosely.

And depending on how you RP your Warlock, even the PC Warlock is a fucking repulsive individual. He could be both a Warlock and a Sylvanas loyalist, one of the most scummy and vile mortals imaginable

Don't tell me that someone would play a warlock and a Sylvanas loyalist to be the good guy

Yes. They are presented that way. Which is why, in order for us to believe in this idea of cosmic balance, we need the story to evolve and the narrative team to get to it. Show us that since the defeat of the Legion, demons can return to their natural state which is more nuanced than just Burning shits.

Or you know... Maybe we don't need that.

Maybe the forces of Disorder can just remain an extreme of chaos. After all, it seems that Disorder and Void are both pretty straightforward in their intentions. They both appeal to your individual desires and push you to madness and destruction. While Order and Light make you believe in a greater good which is only their own vision of the universe that they push onto you.

All forces lead to extremes. But Order and Light just seem better at deception, you could say.

[sunxsera]

On the official forums, I keep seeing people complain that the reveal of 9.2 showed that gods like Elune and An'she were simply 3d printed by the first ones using some magic machine. Someone said at least this proves An'she exists in the WoW universe. Since I'm not subscribed, I can't ask for clarification, but it has something to do with Zereth Mortis. I searched the net, but only kept getting results for '3d print you favorite WoW characters!'.

I'm sorry if this is something that was misunderstood.

isn' t that like everywhere ? lord of the rings, the bible,quran, marvel universe ?

[Varodoc]

Yes. They are presented that way. Which is why, in order for us to believe in this idea of cosmic balance, we need the story to evolve and the narrative team to get to it. Show us that since the defeat of the Legion, demons can return to their natural state which is more nuanced than just Burning shits.

Or you know... Maybe we don't need that.

Maybe the forces of Disorder can just remain an extreme of chaos. After all, it seems that Disorder and Void are both pretty straightforward in their intentions. They both appeal to your individual desires and push you to madness and destruction. While Order and Light make you believe in a greater good which is only their own vision of the universe that they push onto you.

All forces lead to extremes. But Order and Light just seem better at deception, you could say.

The problem is that it doesn't make sense for the First Ones to create both the Demons and the denizens of the Shadowlands. Because we know that the Burning Legion and the Shadowlands were at war, and Draka, being a member of the Army of the Dead, was even sent to infiltrate a Legion camp.

So why would the First Ones create two forces that actively fight each other, one that seeks to destroy the other? Since I'm confident that Sargeras planned to incinerate the Shadowlands just like the rest of the Cosmos. To deny any possible entry way for the Void Lords into reality.

It's actually all very straightforward. Why would you, as a tinker/mechanic, create two robots and program them to destroy each other, instead of to maintain some kind of balance or whatever? The Legion wouldn't exist if the Demons truly cared about any balance, because the Legion by definition is anathema to balance. Since they sought to burn the entire Cosmos.

This is all pretty crappy lore but I'm confident that it will get retconned eventually.

[Mic_128]

It's actually all very straightforward. Why would you, as a tinker/mechanic, create two robots and program them to destroy each other

We literally have a bunch of TV shows of that.

What you really want to be asking is, for what purpose did the First Ones create the universe?

[DatToffer]

The problem is that it doesn't make sense for the First Ones to create both the Demons and the denizens of the Shadowlands. Because we know that the Burning Legion and the Shadowlands were at war, and Draka, being a member of the Army of the Dead, was even sent to infiltrate a Legion camp.

So why would the First Ones create two forces that actively fight each other, one that seeks to destroy the other? Since I'm confident that Sargeras planned to incinerate the Shadowlands just like the rest of the Cosmos. To deny any possible entry way for the Void Lords into reality.

It's actually all very straightforward. Why would you, as a tinker/mechanic, create two robots and program them to destroy each other, instead of to maintain some kind of balance or whatever? The Legion wouldn't exist if the Demons truly cared about any balance, because the Legion by definition is anathema to balance. Since they sought to burn the entire Cosmos.

This is all pretty crappy lore but I'm confident that it will get retconned eventually.

I already answered to that.

The Cosmic Forces already existed in opposition with each other. Dire opposition. The First Ones allegedly brought balance to them, thus allowing the creation of all reality and shit. In Zereth Mortis, we just see a direct way for the First ones to order and influence the Forces.

This is not like building two robots to fight each other, it's more about having six faucets spilling waters, mixing and splashing before going down the drain and trying to build some plumbing system to make use of them.

Now, do the First ones control each and every move of those Forces ? I don't think so. But since they managed to bring balance to them, they seem to be able to regulate each other even though it gets messy for us in the middle of reality.

And the Legion really exists because Sargeras (a being of Order) feared that the Void would bring unbalance.

[Varodoc]

We literally have a bunch of TV shows of that.

What you really want to be asking is, for what purpose did the First Ones create the universe?

There's no evidence they created the Universe. What we know from the Chronicles is that the Universe was created from the clash between Light and Void. The First Ones might have created Elune, the Naaru, and even the Void Lords (for whatever reason), but these forces would have always existed before. Just without single creatures to control them.

And you can come back to this once they reveal the Before Ones