Why does this game feel like a soapbox marvel heroes clash?

[Cosmic Janitor]

The premise of bringing these characters in for recognition because people care about their story is itself wrong. In as much as they're discussed at all it's how exasperated people are with them constantly showing up. Take any WoW forum touching on the story and the only thing that gets less discussion than the Shadowlands-exclusive characters are the likes of Jaina and Thrall that we carry around like flea-ridden mules long after their story utility has been completely exhausted. There's at least people hypothetisizing how they would have done SL better, there's no one who thinks there was anything for Jaina or Baine to do in this story or any reason for them to be here. The only one to generate any discussion at all is Anduin because while his place in the story is equally contrived he at least has something to do.

I disagree. Blizzard clearly keeps on rolling out these characters because they know that at least some people will recognize them, this is likely their main reason, because they already tried to shift the focus on their new characters in BfA and most people didn't really care about characters like Talanji, Taelia, Calia, the troll kid etc. Admittedly, they threw in Baine as well, which is imho down to simply not having much on the horde side to choose from, since they killed off the only notable troll, pretty much dethroned kottiwix at least ingame, killed saurfang and seem averse to use Lorthemar for anything of note. Most of the AR leaders are at best side characters anyway.

I mean at the end of the day Anduin is just there because Sylvanas is extremely petty, in fact all 4 of them are, the jailer sub-plot only came into being after he saw him use holy magic in the maw. So none of them actually make much sense being there, in that regard Baine actually makes the most sense, since he actively defied Sylvanas in BfA. Thrall openly rebelled against her with Saurffang as well and Anduin is the enemy leader. Jaina is probably the odd one out, since they never interacted at all in BfA iirc.

[username993720]

I mean at the end of the day Anduin is just there because Sylvanas is extremely petty, in fact all 4 of them are, the jailer sub-plot only came into being after he saw him use holy magic in the maw. So none of them actually make much sense being there, in that regard Baine actually makes the most sense, since he actively defied Sylvanas in BfA. Thrall openly rebelled against her with Saurffang as well and Anduin is the enemy leader. Jaina is probably the odd one out, since they never interacted at all in BfA iirc.

And, who's not there? Genn Greymane.

[Super Dickmann]

I disagree. Blizzard clearly keeps on rolling out these characters because they know that at least some people will recognize them, this is likely their main reason, because they already tried to shift the focus on their new characters in BfA and most people didn't really care about characters like Talanji, Taelia, Calia, the troll kid etc. Admittedly, they threw in Baine as well, which is imho down to simply not having much on the horde side to choose from, since they killed off the only notable troll, pretty much dethroned kottiwix at least ingame, killed saurfang and seem averse to use Lorthemar for anything of note. Most of the AR leaders are at best side characters anyway.

I mean at the end of the day Anduin is just there because Sylvanas is extremely petty, in fact all 4 of them are, the jailer sub-plot only came into being after he saw him use holy magic in the maw. So none of them actually make much sense being there, in that regard Baine actually makes the most sense, since he actively defied Sylvanas in BfA. Thrall openly rebelled against her with Saurffang as well and Anduin is the enemy leader. Jaina is probably the odd one out, since they never interacted at all in BfA iirc.

I'm not disputing that that's Blizzard's reasoning, it definitely is, it's just that their reasoning is wrong and only further handicaps the storytelling and any glance at fan forums shows that what discussion there is of the plot and characters tends to treat the presence of Thrall, Jaina etc. as a useless drag while complaining that characters like Bolvar for example didn't get more to do. Far from people wanting the old characters there at any cost, much ink is spilled about how characters like Genn (from WC2 but defined entirely through Legion/BFA for most people) and Bolvar (from WoW, but relevant only due to his post-Wrath personality) aren't given their due in favor of dragging these walking, talking 'memberberries around. The Jailer, the most bland expansion villain the game has produced this side of Cataclysm Deathwing gets more discussion and topics where people try to fix his character than Thrall and Jaina do despite their decades in the setting and their role in the game where most people got their start in the franchise. They're that aggressively dull and that out of place in this storyline. Anduin is equally as contrived into this plot but purely from a fan perspective at least people are discussing him.

Their presence in the story makes it actively worse because at best they suck up screentime from the story the writers are trying to tell, which whatever its (low) quality at least has all its elements meant to be there. A character like Jaina has no reason to be here but she eats up narrative oxygen while not developing one iota, since her arc, which was a full circle regressing back to her WC3 personality, was already done last expansion. Baine is the least offender because after being dropped off a cliff he has no more lines and does nothing whereas Thrall is the worst because not only is 'meeting his mom while dealing with the consequences of leaving the role of Warchief' already his story in WoD, but to enable this plotline they had to inject Draka into the Maldraxxus story, dooming one of their zones to circle around someone with no personality besides 'generic orc warrior'.

Thrall's also the worst because his redesign and arguably his entire presence in this expansion exists only to sell 600$ statues.

[Overlordd]

go read your dark fantasy books. Or play WH/40k
Its not a game for you.

I mean it was since Warcraft was derived from that?
Are you just being obtuse?

Or do you think the story is good now and are telling old fans to shove it?

[Dancaris]

I mean it was since Warcraft was derived from that?
Are you just being obtuse?

Or do you think the story is good now and are telling old fans to shove it?

I just dont think that you understand the game you are talking about. Its world of warcraft - its not wc2, wc3. And on top of that - its pg12 (i think?). So with that - its game not about some dark fantasy shit. So - no racism, no homophobia, and no harrasment. Even if you want it. So - if you prefer that kind of games - search for another one.

[Combatbutler]

I just dont think that you understand the game you are talking about. Its world of warcraft - its not wc2, wc3. And on top of that - its pg12 (i think?). So with that - its game not about some dark fantasy shit. So - no racism, no homophobia, and no harrasment. Even if you want it. So - if you prefer that kind of games - search for another one.

You can have outright xenophobia,slavery, cannibalism, genocide etc. in a game for pg 12 without any issue.

Just look at stellaris

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXbXQF1GLJ0

[Super Dickmann]

I just dont think that you understand the game you are talking about. Its world of warcraft - its not wc2, wc3. And on top of that - its pg12 (i think?). So with that - its game not about some dark fantasy shit. So - no racism, no homophobia, and no harrasment. Even if you want it. So - if you prefer that kind of games - search for another one.

Poe's Law: The Post.

[Tommi]

I wish they wrote it as bloody and grim as it used to be. No mercy. Stormwind knights charging into Medivhs chamber to slaughter him? Hell yeah, Blackmoore being a racist piece of shit but also having a conflicted background that turned him into the miserable man he is? Yes please.

Say goodbye to the Horde then. The Alliance being able to use the Vindicaar? They wouldn't last long against it.

[Overlordd]

I just dont think that you understand the game you are talking about. Its world of warcraft - its not wc2, wc3. And on top of that - its pg12 (i think?). So with that - its game not about some dark fantasy shit. So - no racism, no homophobia, and no harrasment. Even if you want it. So - if you prefer that kind of games - search for another one.

Lol I don't care. You got into a game that you didn't like and forced it to change to your liking.

Why is gatekeeping still seen as a bad thing when you got people like this coming in being all disrespectful?

[Dancaris]

Lol I don't care. You got into a game that you didn't like and forced it to change to your liking.

Why is gatekeeping still seen as a bad thing when you got people like this coming in being all disrespectful?

Haha, me either dont care about you view of the game. Its not like me making that decisions or somehow force devs to change something. You cant bear changes that made by devs? Vote with your wallet, not cry rivers at nonofficial forums.
Why is have serial killers, rapist, mass murderers, racists, homophobs or other bad persons is good for the game? Because you like that things more? Maybe this game totally not for you, and maybe you should visit a psychologist for help.
Gatekeeping, right. And its me who is disrespectful and obtuse?

>Or do you think the story is good now and are telling old fans to shove it
when I said that? Its can be some better story ofc, but not with some dorkfantasy HURRDURR for old fans. And just for ref I'm probably more old fan than you.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

"You didn't change, the game changed"


"The game didn't change, you changed"


It's honestly hilarious that people can continue to argue opinions and subjective interpretations of things as facts still.

[CalamityHeart]

I've found the characters of Revendreth and Denathrius quite endearing while I was going through the Venthyr covenant's story. And because there was such a focus on the Venthyr and Revendreth with Castle Nathria in 9.0, it did give the story and characters a bit of charm.

9.1 (as well as what I've seen so far of the non-Venthyr covenant stories, which at this point is about half of the Necrolord campaign) is stale bread, though, I have to agree. With the exception of Tyrande in general and her moment with Elune and the Winter Queen (and even that frustrated me for its own reasons), Garrosh's final moment, and Ve'nari, who I've always found enigmatic and cool (plus, I love hearing Ana whenever I talk to her), I've struggled to give a singular shit about anything that anyone is saying or doing. Listening to Thrall, Jaina, Bolvar, and Sylvanas just... say words at each other during the final fight of Sanctum just felt pitiful and saddening to listen to. Kel'thuzad frantically begging for a bargain as we're about to kill him had more of a satisfying effect on me than anything that happened afterwards.

There are definitely good writers on the team, but they aren't any of the biggest heads in the room, unfortunately.

[username993720]

Thrall's also the worst because his redesign and arguably his entire presence in this expansion exists only to sell 600$ statues.

It's 50% off now

I just dont think that you understand the game you are talking about. Its world of warcraft - its not wc2, wc3. And on top of that - its pg12 (i think?). So with that - its game not about some dark fantasy shit. So - no racism, no homophobia, and no harrasment. Even if you want it. So - if you prefer that kind of games - search for another one.

Wouldn't it be better if we try to change it?

Why is have serial killers, rapist, mass murderers, racists, homophobs or other bad persons is good for the game?

Because it would be more mature, deep, and better qualitied than it is now.

[Villager720]

These are the guys who said Sylvanas was "Morally Grey" right before she did a genocide. They're not good writers at all

Rewatch the interview - Ion called Azeroth a morally grey world.

[Dancaris]

Because it would be more mature, deep, and better qualitied than it is now.

And why it should be more mature? Maybe add some sex, gore? Or killing important characters? It is what makes stories better?

[Illusions]

Forcing racism/homophobia etcetera into the game does not make it gritty, mature, or in any way have better writing. WoW is a fantasy game and being free of any sort of minority bashing tropes is one of the only good things the story devs have done and it's an example many fantasy writers should follow.

Ask yourself the question why you think these inclusions make the game 'more mature, deep, and of better quality'.

To answer the title though, the story devs are led by a person who liked the ending of GoT S8. They're incapable of writing complex characters (note: complex does not equal any sort of minority bashing, you can be flawed without having to touch any of that) or any drawn out storylines. They've been winging the story as they go anyway.

[username993720]

And why it should be more mature? Maybe add some sex, gore? Or killing important characters? It is what makes stories better?

Definitely better than the childish, progressive thing we got going on right now.

Forcing racism/homophobia etcetera into the game does not make it gritty, mature, or in any way have better writing. WoW is a fantasy game and being free of any sort of minority bashing tropes is one of the only good things the story devs have done and it's an example many fantasy writers should follow.

Ask yourself the question why you think these inclusions make the game 'more mature, deep, and of better quality'.

I don't know how you got to homophobia, but racism has been a part of the game's races for a long time now. From humans hating Orcs, to elves patronizing over other, lesser races and to Garrosh forming an orc-exclusive Horde.

I don't know why you believe this game has to address real-life issues when it's a fantasy game meant for escapism.

[Kralljin]

Forcing racism/homophobia etcetera into the game does not make it gritty, mature, or in any way have better writing. WoW is a fantasy game and being free of any sort of minority bashing tropes is one of the only good things the story devs have done and it's an example many fantasy writers should follow.

When the origin of a game series lie in a race war, then racism is frankly not avoidable.
Fucking hell, Sylvanas tried to genocide the Night elves.

Also, bonus points for randomnly throwing in homophobia.

[Rexosaurus]

Not entirely sure what you guys are talking about. This game just finished an expansion where a massive amount of one of the primary races was burned to death and it triggered a nationalistic world war that included chemical weapons and some arguably unsavory tactics. But it still sucked total ass.

The problem is the writers/WoW. Adding (more) grim dark elements will make the setting darker, but it won't improve the quality of WoW's story.

[Hastis]

But PelAgos Is TrAnSeXuAl there is diversity what u need more? there are no more greenskins they are good bros now