Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Kaleredar]

Find better argument than "but USA!!!". Also whataboutism was forbidden already several times, I guess that's all you RuSSia fans have left.

Sure is comfy to be a "vassal" to USA as per your words, complete freedom of having national identity, political democracy and quality of life to the extreme here in Finland.

Is it so bad in your country that you'd prefer to be under russian rule?

His initial... argument, I guess, seemed to be that, in the fight against Russia, Ukraine and the EU are the "good guys" but the US couldn't be called a good guy because obviously they tricked Russia into invading Ukraine as part of their evil NATO plan, his evidence being that 1) the US invaded Iraq almost two decades ago and 2) obviously the US did nothing to stop Russia from invading and they were talking to countries on Russia's border so Russia just couldn't help itself but invade Ukraine... which I guess also extends to when Russia invaded Ukraine 8 years ago, too.

[Specialka]

Find better argument than "but USA!!!". Also whataboutism was forbidden already several times, I guess that's all you RuSSia fans have left.

Sure is comfy to be a "vassal" to USA as per your words, complete freedom of having national identity, political democracy and quality of life to the extreme here in Finland.

Is it so bad in your country that you'd prefer to be under russian rule?

Dude, I am anything but pro-russian. I want them beaten to the ground, but I am still not blind for why we are in this mess. And my country is one of the greatest in the EU.

[Kaleredar]

Obviously they are the one giving the most aid to Ukraine. Beside Russia, there are the most to blame for this mess.

The only country responsible for invading Ukraine is Russia. Because they're the country invading Ukraine.

I have no idea why that's so difficult for you to grasp.

And like I said, those Ukrainian soldiers are probably thinking to themselves "thank God the good ol' U. S. of A has sent us these artillery pieces and trained us to strike back at the Russians invading our country," and not "well if only the US hadn't engaged in discussions with our country and others about the state of geopolitical security regarding Russia's increased aggression vis-a-vis the establishment of NATO bases in the broader Euro-Russian border in a way that inflamed the utterly paranoid and deluded government of Russia such that they would concoct multi-year scheme to systematically invade our coun-yaddayaddayaddayadda..."

With your simple reasoning, I guess you would say that the attack on Pearl Harbor is only the Japan to blame for to make an analogy. And by deescalate, I meant before the invasion. I thought that much was clear, I was clearly wrong.

Maybe try retyping that out into a more coherent sentence?

Now just so mods don't get pissy, I don't point this out as a slam on someone who's first language might not be English, I do it because I legitimately have no clue what you're trying to say here.

[zealo]

Obviously they are the one giving the most aid to Ukraine. Beside Russia, there are the most to blame for this mess.

With your simple reasoning, I guess you would say that the attack on Pearl Harbor is only the Japan to blame for to make an analogy. And by deescalate, I meant before the invasion. I thought that much was clear, I was clearly wrong.

Yes, the attack on Pearl Harbour is only the Japanese's fault too, you are entirely correct about that, good that you're so perceptive.

The oil embargo that the US imposed upon Japan came about after the Japanese were several years deep into an invasion of China, and then escalated that further by occupying French Indochina in 1940, but that you're showing yourself to support imperialism so long as it isn't American one is evident enough from your posts.

[Saradain]

Dude, I am anything but pro-russian. I want them beaten to the ground, but I am still not blind for why we are in this mess. And my country is one of the greatest in the EU.

Why are we in this mess? Because some countries rely too much in russian energy. Which is being mended as we speak.

Why is Russia in this mess? Only because they decided it's a valid plan to invade a nation, to annex it entirely while wiping out all traces of its culture and freedom. By any means necessary. Soon(tm) to probably include radioactive catastrophy. (not NOOOKS)

If EU is a vassal of the US. It does not show AT ALL.

If EU was a vassal of Russia, we would live in fucking shack villages devoid of joy or comfort. While russian rapist-murderers would pay us a visit any time Czar Putin requires a human sacrifice for that extra golden toilet for his yachts.

- - - Updated - - -

All arguments for justification or excuses for RuSSian invasion can be beaten with a simple meme.

https://twitter.com/uamemesforces/st...67067773415426

[Specialka]

Why are we in this mess? Because some countries rely too much in russian energy. Which is being mended as we speak.

Why is Russia in this mess? Only because they decided it's a valid plan to invade a nation, to annex it entirely while wiping out all traces of its culture and freedom. By any means necessary. Soon(tm) to probably include radioactive catastrophy. (not NOOOKS)

If EU is a vassal of the US. It does not show AT ALL.

If EU was a vassal of Russia, we would live in fucking shack villages devoid of joy or comfort. While russian rapist-murderers would pay us a visit any time Czar Putin requires a human sacrifice for that extra golden toilet for his yachts.

- - - Updated - - -

All arguments for justification or excuses for RuSSian invasion can be beaten with a simple meme.

https://twitter.com/uamemesforces/st...67067773415426

Yes, a "meme" sums up quite well all of your reasoning. I guess living in a "meme" world is great.

[Saradain]

Yes, a "meme" sums up quite well all of your reasoning. I guess living in a "meme" world is great.

Gotcha, you really didn't have an argument to begin with.

Care to explain which parts of my reasoning were wrong?

Even better, you want to cut the crap and admit you think it's Ukraine's fault for being raped and destroyed?

[Specialka]

Gotcha, you really didn't have an argument to begin with.

Care to explain which parts of my reasoning were wrong?

Even better, you want to cut the crap and admit you think it's Ukraine's fault for being raped and destroyed?

Case in point, put words or reasoning in my mouth. Case study in fact. Thanks.

[Saradain]

Case in point, put words or reasoning in my mouth. Case study in fact. Thanks.

Still waiting for an argument other than "BUT USA!!!!". Can do this all day.

Greatest meme of all time - just blankly say everyone else is wrong and you are right. Such is the russian way.

[Specialka]

Still waiting for an argument other than "BUT USA!!!!". Can do this all day.

Greatest meme of all time - just blankly say everyone else is wrong and you are right. Such is the russian way.

The "why the USA shares a part of the blame but Russia still has the biggest part of it because they did invade" have already been explained in this thread, I invite you do a little bit of research about it.

[Saradain]

The "why the USA shares a part of the blame but Russia still has the biggest part of it because they did invade" have already been explained in this thread, I invite you do a little bit of research about it.

And pray tell, how did USA "force" Russia to genocide Ukraine?

By peacefully letting a sovereign nation to seek closer ties to friendly nations?

Whatever USA has ever done, doesn't matter one bit. Russia still chose to rape-murder (not necessarily in that order) ukrainian civilians. If you honestly think a nation wanting to peacefully and willingly join any kind of alliance is a reasoning to invade...

[zealo]

Maybe try retyping that out into a more coherent sentence?

Now just so mods don't get pissy, I don't point this out as a slam on someone who's first language might not be English, I do it because I legitimately have no clue what you're trying to say here.

The guy thinks the USA it at fault for not "sufficiently de-escalating" with Japan prior to Pearl Harbour with that post.

What's actually being said with that in practise is that he thinks the US shouldn't have sanctioned Japan economically for it's expanding wars of aggression that led to the deaths of tens millions and some of the worst atrocities against humanity to have ever taken place during it's war in China.

[Specialka]

The guy thinks the USA it at fault for not "sufficiently de-escalating" with Japan prior to Pearl Harbour with that post.

What's actually being said with that in practise is that he thinks the US shouldn't have sanctioned Japan economically for it's expanding wars of aggression that led to the deaths of tens millions and some of the worst atrocities against humanity to have ever taken place during it's war in China.

The USA did not "sanction" Japan because of what they were doing (the atrocities and such, they could not care less about that) but rather compete with them because they wanted to be the dominant economic force in that area of the world.

[jonnysensible]

Dude, I am anything but pro-russian. I want them beaten to the ground, but I am still not blind for why we are in this mess. And my country is one of the greatest in the EU.

your country is one of the main funders of the russian war machine. How much gas have you brought while the Russians commit atrocities?

We need a visa ban for french and german citizens across the eu.

[Specialka]

your country is one of the main funders of the russian war machine. How much gas have you brought while the Russians commit atrocities?

We need a visa ban for french and german citizens across the eu.

In proportion, France was one the least dependent country with Russian gaz.

[Saradain]

https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status...17176474279937

Seems like Putin is following Hitler's footsteps in taking control of his utter failure of an invasion.

[Vladier]

I mean, I don't doubt they wanted all of Ukraine... eventually. But like I said, I think this was an initial "shock and awe, EU and US sit on their hands so Ukraine sues for peace, everybody's in and out in a week tops, and Russia is plus another chunk of land" that they'd do once or twice more until Ukraine was no more.

It's obvious that Putin misjudged just about every single variable in this scenario. But if his intent was to whole-cloth take over Ukraine from the jump, then this wasn't just a misjudgement, it was a plan that straight up was just not going to work.

The EU and US might have sat on the sidelines and tossed a few slap-on-the-wrist sanctions like they did for Crimea had Putin simply just excised another chunk of land. But what would essentially be a colossal shift in global politics in the dissolution of Ukraine into Russia? There's no way they'd sit that out. Moreover, buildup of troops on the border or not, it's clear that the logistics for taking Kyiv were never there, and unless someone seriously, seriously lied to Putin about such I don't know how Russia could have thought it was actually possible. And while I don't doubt that Putin did not understand Russia's lack of military ability, the utter and abysmal failure of the Russian military forces seems beyond something that could even be lied about, were they supposedly equipped for a full-scale invasion into the Ukrainian heartland and seizure of the capital.

That's the thing, Putin expected Ukraine to fold and for the people there to meet our army with flowers, or at least for Kiev to do that (and the rest of Ukraine would easily follow). He didn't really miscalculate, he was given the wrong variables by his special services and military heads, which formed their reports with expectations that no one would go to war over their "generous" reading of the situation. After all, all the western military technology in the world won't save you even against even a barely equipped insurgent group if your president flees at the first sight of trouble and your military proves to be corrupt on the top and completely disinterested in resisting the aggressor on the bottom, as Afghanistan had already proven, let alone an actually equipped military that might not even have to seriously fight.

That's the problem with dictators, they are the sole locus in which decisions are made, but no matter how much of a genius a given dictator is, they can't really be everywhere at once to get an actual state of affairs, so everyone below them learns to provide information that will benefit the informant not the one being informed. Without a competent troubleshooter on the lower links of the chain (as those tend to be filtered out for someone who will be giving a more peachy picture) a feedback loop is created where the dictator is buried in their own little bubble of everything being great and the lower links are unpunished or even rewarded for creating that bubble. Until that bubble crashes into reality, pops, and the dictator suddenly finds themselves surrounded by incompetent rusted chains of command and has to take everything into their own competent hands, except those hands, no matter how dexterous they were before, didn't see any real action due to everything being so great before and are now sluggish and feeble. And if the bubble doesn't crash, it just eventually becomes so dense that it implodes into a singularity of awful which spaghettifies everything in its orbit, but that's an aside which doesn't pertain to this situation.

[Nymrohd]

If there is an irrational actor, the response should not be appeasement. Rather the response should be to weigh the potential actions of that actor and mitigate them ahead of time. While Ostpolitik may have been reasonable when it was convinced, it should have been set aside and replaced with a policy of economic disengagement after the summer of 2008 and not simply considered dead but any of its proponents should have been internationally ridiculed after 2014 (looking at Merkel). Any who claim pragmatism in Europe's and primarily Germany's foreign policy regarding Russia after the Russian-Georgian twelve day war of 2008 should be derided as anything but rational. There are three ways to see it. Romanticism born of a constructivist approach, with many European policy makers in frequent contact with Russian counterparts and thus believing they had an understanding (which has easily been proven grossly false), heedless greed where short term costs were valued inordinately against strategic uncertainty or lastly and most glaringly, rampant corruption with many high ranking european politicians having their hands on the Russian pie.

The US is the last actor who can be blamed. Not even the US under Trump should be blamed (if anything, it should have rang alarm bells and forced disengagement from Russia, not just derision of Trump). The US made its disappointment with European dependency on Russian energy clear at every possible level. Opponents just dismissed all concerns as US being entirely interested in selling LNG to Europe as if geopolitics were a settled matter. The last 15 years have proven nothing more than how little the current generation of European politicians are, only concerned with serving the short term gains of their corporate masters and how blatantly unequal to the circumstances given to them to handle.

So if you are looking to blame someone other than Russia in part for what happened in Ukraine, don't blame NATO. Blame Europe.

[Arrashi]

So russia claims that Ukraine deployed psychic commando that is hypnotising and indoctrinating russians into burning cars in moscov. I guess its full out Red Alert now - Be on with Yuri.

[jonnysensible]

counter offensive looks on in Kherson. Gonna be very metal there.

himars hitting trenches lol