Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Skulltaker]

These three put together, how powerful are they?

Really depends on where you live. Europe or America? Negligible. In their close vicinity? eh...

North Korea is a joke really. You see how bad russia fared? Well nks equipment is even older and worse than russias and its army is poorly fed even compared to russias mobiks. And the US and sk are far better equipped than Ukraine.

North Korea has a huge amount of conventional artillery trained at the demilitarized zone, and a lot of it is within range of Seoul. If, in theory, war broke out and NK would throw all rules of engagement out of the window, which they are likely to do, they could amass a lot of civilian casualties very fast.

[Gabriel]

I don't know if you people need a recap on what led up to this, but North Korea is now one of the "nu Axis" powers for Russia along with the Iranian government. In addition to escalating their tensions against SK and the US much, much more lately, they are now covertly sending munition and proper clothing to the Russian army against the sanctions. There are reports they've even sending their own fodder.

While China is definitely Russia's staunch ally, the fact Xi Jinping of all people openly "warned" Putin lately over the prospect of nukes or nuke rhetoric - humiliating him - makes it more evident North Korea is a much more important ally given they are openly supporting their war effort.

These three put together, how powerful are they?

Lay down the copium for once.

[YUPPIE]

Really depends on where you live. Europe or America? Negligible. In their close vicinity? eh...

I mean, so you're saying Russia + NK + Iran with China and India in the background specifically cannot challenge the West?

[Skulltaker]

I mean, so you're saying Russia + NK + Iran with China and India in the background specifically cannot challenge the West?

What kind of Fantasy Football setting is this?

Edit: Oh, I just realized whom I'm talking to... nevermind. You keep your World War Three fantasies alive there.

[YUPPIE]

What kind of Fantasy Football setting is this?

Edit: Oh, I just realized whom I'm talking to... nevermind. You keep your World War Three fantasies alive there.

I don't want to spread Putin's rhetoric in detail, but have you seen what he's said lately? Things all pertaining to challenging the West.

[Skulltaker]

I don't want to spread Putin's rhetoric in detail, but have you seen what he's said lately? Things all pertaining to challenging the West.

Mmmyes, and my wife's cat is regularly meowing and hissing at my Dalmatian when he takes up the good cushion by the fireplace, but that won't do her any good either. Winston knows she can't do shit about it. At some point, the cat will realize that it occupies the lowest spot in the pecking order in this house, settle down and be content with it.

[Nymrohd]

Mmmyes, and my wife's cat is regularly meowing and hissing at my Dalmatian when he takes up the good cushion by the fireplace, but that won't do her any good either. Winston knows she can't do shit about it. At some point, the cat will realize that it occupies the lowest spot in the pecking order in this house, settle down and be content with it.

Heresy. Cats exist to be served. You are its servants and the dog is just a bodyguard for when she wants to go on a promenade.

Putin is more of a rat.

[Specialka]

Mmmyes, and my wife's cat is regularly meowing and hissing at my Dalmatian when he takes up the good cushion by the fireplace, but that won't do her any good either. Winston knows she can't do shit about it. At some point, the cat will realize that it occupies the lowest spot in the pecking order in this house, settle down and be content with it.

But why should he be content with that ? Is that just ?

[Nymrohd]

But why should he be content with that ? Is that just ?

No country is ENTITLED to a periphery. A state can gain a periphery by actually offering something to the other states around it. The West has gained a periphery by massive foreign investment, significant knowledge transfers and by largely welcoming immigrants (forget the xenophobia; the end result is that the US, UK and EU accept millions of financial and education immigrants who constantly sent money and knowledge back). The USSR did the same. Russia does not have knowledge to transfer, is a less desirable target for immigration and its FDI is on a far lesser scale than that of the West or even China. It's claiming a periphery by violence or by enabling violence. The West does not use violence in its periphery (it DOES use violence in states adjacent to it).

[Iphie]

While China is definitely Russia's staunch ally, the fact Xi Jinping of all people openly "warned" Putin lately over the prospect of nukes or nuke rhetoric - humiliating him - makes it more evident North Korea is a much more important ally given they are openly supporting their war effort.

Yeah, right. While China isn't in the Western Camp, it is becoming quite clear they've had it up to to here with russia. By, not so subtly, siding with the EU AND telling russia that they will not accept nuclear escalation they made that abundantly clear.

[Specialka]

No country is ENTITLED to a periphery. A state can gain a periphery by actually offering something to the other states around it. The West has gained a periphery by massive foreign investment, significant knowledge transfers and by largely welcoming immigrants (forget the xenophobia; the end result is that the US, UK and EU accept millions of financial and education immigrants who constantly sent money and knowledge back). The USSR did the same. Russia does not have knowledge to transfer, is a less desirable target for immigration and its FDI is on a far lesser scale than that of the West or even China. It's claiming a periphery by violence or by enabling violence. The West does not use violence in its periphery (it DOES use violence in states adjacent to it).

Rather weak argument or explanation to be honest. One could argue that the West did it before (less now, as we have more or less learn from that), but as "we" did it before, it is "right" that the others do it themselves.

[Nymrohd]

Rather weak argument or explanation to be honest. One could argue that the West did it before (less now, as we have more or less learn from that), but as "we" did it before, it is "right" that the others do it themselves.

I don't know who that one is but they'd simply lack knowledge of history. If we are talking about the violent establishment of peripheries through colonies, the Russian Empire indulged in robbing people of their land and assets as much as the British, French etc. They just invaded and conquered instead of establishing colonies. During the cold war both sides did the same and I acknowledged that. But now? No, current Russia does not just "deserve" a periphery. It is not "unjust" for it not to have a host of states they can extract preferential treatment from because they have little to offer to those states while the West has a lot to offer and does offer it.
And by the end of this war the few states that were still stuck as their periphery will be loose; Armenia was cast adrift by a Russia unwilling to honor defense committments with Pelosi then visiting as a truce holds and Kazakhstan will increasingly play with China over Russia (and perhaps should offer further access to the West so they can keep the balance and their sovereignty). The Azeris don't really need Russia when they have Turkey which is just as valid a regional power protector because that is what Russia is, a regional power that happens to have nukes, a larger but less populous Pakistan.

[Specialka]

I don't know who that one is but they'd simply lack knowledge of history. If we are talking about the violent establishment of peripheries through colonies, the Russian Empire indulged in robbing people of their land and assets as much as the British, French etc. They just invaded and conquered instead of establishing colonies. During the cold war both sides did the same and I acknowledged that. But now? No, current Russia does not just "deserve" a periphery. It is not "unjust" for it not to have a host of states they can extract preferential treatment from because they have little to offer to those states while the West has a lot to offer and does offer it.
And by the end of this war the few states that were still stuck as their periphery will be loose; Armenia was cast adrift by a Russia unwilling to honor defense committments with Pelosi then visiting as a truce holds and Kazakhstan will increasingly play with China over Russia (and perhaps should offer further access to the West so they can keep the balance and their sovereignty). The Azeris don't really need Russia when they have Turkey which is just as valid a regional power protector because that is what Russia is, a regional power that happens to have nukes, a larger but less populous Pakistan.

The ones are mostly the "pro poutine crowd" or the "non aligned crowd".

[Nymrohd]

The ones are mostly the "pro poutine crowd" or the "non aligned crowd".

There are people against poutine??? I get being lactose intolerant but you cannot deny gravy and cheese curds dammit!

[Kallisto]

I don't know if you people need a recap on what led up to this, but North Korea is now one of the "nu Axis" powers for Russia along with the Iranian government. In addition to escalating their tensions against SK and the US much, much more lately, they are now covertly sending munition and proper clothing to the Russian army against the sanctions. There are reports they've even sending their own fodder.

While China is definitely Russia's staunch ally, the fact Xi Jinping of all people openly "warned" Putin lately over the prospect of nukes or nuke rhetoric - humiliating him - makes it more evident North Korea is a much more important ally given they are openly supporting their war effort.

These three put together, how powerful are they?

China is nobody's ally, sure they might want to have control over Taiwan and have the US on their side of the pacific. But you know what they want less, an uncertain market, caused by inflation and massive hikes on food prices caused by a conflict. They've already basically ripped the central asian nations out of Russia's sphere into their own. They're building a highway through them just to spite Russia. They signed an agreement with Kazakhstan saying if Russia attacks it, then it's basically Sino-Russian war time.

They refuse to see Crimea as Russia, they refused to acknowledge Donetsk and Luhansk as independent. They even afterwards refuse to acknowledge the vote on the 4 regions occupied by Russia as part of Russia. They have even sent humanitarian aid to Ukraine and there are even signs of Chinese-made weapons being used by Ukraine (Although this may have been old Albanian stock. But China never protested it)

[Iphie]

China is nobody's ally, sure they might want to have control over Taiwan and have the US on their side of the pacific. But you know what they want less, an uncertain market, caused by inflation and massive hikes on food prices caused by a conflict. They've already basically ripped the central asian nations out of Russia's sphere into their own. They're building a highway through them just to spite Russia. They signed an agreement with Kazakhstan saying if Russia attacks it, then it's basically Sino-Russian war time.

They refuse to see Crimea as Russia, they refused to acknowledge Donetsk and Luhansk as independent. They even afterwards refuse to acknowledge the vote on the 4 regions occupied by Russia as part of Russia. They have even sent humanitarian aid to Ukraine and there are even signs of Chinese-made weapons being used by Ukraine (Although this may have been old Albanian stock. But China never protested it)

Like literally all these things, and ESPECIALLY the Central Asian crap is going to bite russia and putin in the ass so hard.

[Kallisto]

Like literally all these things, and ESPECIALLY the Central Asian crap is going to bite russia and putin in the ass so hard.

Plus the more Russia is hurting, the better it is for China. Russia bleeds, Russia falls more, China swoops in. Even better if this ends at any point, in the international poker game where everyone is cheating, who will Russia beg to so they can stay at any table? THE US? No. Europe? Hell no. The Global south? Unfortunately, they don't have the chips to help themselves. It's China, the more Russia bleeds, the more it becomes a vassal to China in the long term as it broken links to Europe. (One former Russian general stated Russia had to align with the west or become a Chinese vassal).

Also China telling Putin to knock it out with the Nuke talk also is due to China wanting to make financial plays in Europe. Telling Russia off, well that for eastern European nations is all "Hey maybe these guys aren't so bad after all. Let's make some deals."

[YUPPIE]

Ukraine has claimed negotiations with Putin will never happen, but they're open to his successor any time.

They know Putin can't leave office without dying, so it's worrying if they said that with that in mind. Like they're hopeful he just disappears.

[Specialka]

Ukraine has claimed negotiations with Putin will never happen, but they're open to his successor any time.

They know Putin can't leave office without dying, so it's worrying if they said that with that in mind. Like they're hopeful he just disappears.

They also know he won't negotiate or won't negotiate in good faith. So they send a message to those around him: "If you are bored of that war, if you remove that guy, we can negotiate".

[YUPPIE]

They also know he won't negotiate or won't negotiate in good faith. So they send a message to those around him: "If you are bored of that war, if you remove that guy, we can negotiate".

Isn't subtly advocating for, more or less, the murder of someone bad?

I remember when Lindsay Graham earlier this year just straight-up said he should be killed, he was condemned for it.