Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Iphie]

Russia is committing genocide now? I can't find the news story.

They've been trying for the last two years...

[Deus Mortis]

They've been trying for the last two years...

There has been no trying, they have been for the past 2 years. If we just ignore the killing, they still fall under committing genocide with the relocation of all the children they took.

[Iphie]

There has been no trying, they have been for the past 2 years. If we just ignore the killing, they still fall under committing genocide with the relocation of all the children they took.

I know, but russia isn't really succeeding in the total genocide. We should not forget that "merely" killing will not constitute a genocide, like a thousand civilian casualties would not make it a genocide, especially if they were accidental. Now what russia is doing definitely is a genocide, there is no doubt about it. (or at the very least an attempted genocide)

The reason I say that is because while killing people of a group is a criterium there must also be intent, which there is, but if you would apply that criterium strictly then soldiers killing soldiers are committing genocide since they have the intent to kill as many people of a given group, and I don't think that will stick.

And, for the record, you really should have looked at who I was replying to, since that person seems to be questioning whether or not a genocide is going on at all.

[zorkuus]

Russia is committing genocide now? I can't find the news story.

They're trying to destroy ukrainian culture. They say this openly. That's genocide.

[Specialka]

The types of people Right wing propaganda has cultivated that'd even attempt to start a violent insurrection are also so violently paranoid that they'd turn on each-other for being Feds and go nowhere.

Also miss me with that 'Diversity is weakness' shit, it's only a 'weakness' insomuch that Nationalist dipshits think it is. Just like every other imaginary problem right wingers conjure up so they can be mad about something.

Diversity is not a weakness, communautarism is.

[Ihavewaffles]

Russia is committing genocide now? I can't find the news story.

They're trying to destroy ukrainian culture. They say this openly. That's genocide.

cough, cough

https://news.yahoo.com/no-russian-mi...I%20want%20to.

There is no Russian minority in Ukraine, so its "rights" do not come up in negotiations with EU – Ukraine's senior official

Ukrainska Pravda
November 9, 2023·1 min read

Olha Stefanishyna, Deputy Prime Minister for European and Euro-Atlantic Integration of Ukraine, insists that the issue of protecting the Russian minority is not raised in the negotiations with the EU on minority rights.

Source: Stefanishyna at a joint press conference with Katarína Mathernová, EU Ambassador to Ukraine, reported by European Pravda

Details: Stefanishyna acknowledged that the issue of guaranteeing minority rights will be very important on Ukraine's path to EU membership, and this is not purely Ukrainian peculiarity. A number of other candidates also faced demands in this area during their accession negotiations.

However, despite the fact that the Venice Commission refers to the "Russian minority" in its decisions and recommendations to Kyiv, it is not mentioned in the dialogue with the EU.

"There is no Russian minority in Ukraine. It does not exist! There is not a single legally registered community that identifies itself as a Russian minority. There are Ukrainians, some of whom speak Russian. I am from Odesa, I speak Ukrainian when I want to, and I speak Russian when I want to. And I do not need Muscovites or the decision of the Venice Commission to do so (choose a language – ed.)," Stefanishyna explained.

She stressed that Brussels shares this view.

"I am glad that the European Commission understands this," she said.

[Wilian]

Russia is committing genocide now? I can't find the news story.

Turn on tv in Russia. They are boasting openly about it in broadcasts.

[Lahis]

Russia is committing genocide now? I can't find the news story.

You must live in Russia to have so completely missed out on the news for the last two years.

Since you haven't noticed: for the past two years Russia has been fighting a war in Ukraine with the explicit goal of erasing Ukrainian ste an people from existence.

[zorkuus]

cough, cough

Come on mods. Can't you get these kremlin trolls banned for a bit more time?
How many times do they have to make a comeback before you understand what's going on?

[Elder Millennial]

Come on mods. Can't you get these kremlin trolls banned for a bit more time?
How many times do they have to make a comeback before you understand what's going on?

While genocide denial should be an actionable offense, I don't think they should be auto banned just for being Vatniks and reciting Kremlin propaganda.

Knowing what the Vatniks think and believe (or being told to) is valuable in the sense that those will be the talking points Western Vatniks will be parroting in no time.

The only Vatnik here I truly despise is @Easo. He did a whole lot of "Fog'o'War" around when Bucha and such were revealed, he never course corrected on that. Both sideism is one thing, but he did was something else.

[Nymrohd]

And I don't blame you for that opinion. Poland getting removed is somewhat sensible given how they do shit there. A pity my wife is polish so I would still have to endure traveling there whether Poland remains in the EU or not

Poland changed its government and is one of the most promising countries in the EU when it comes to their economy

[Flarelaine]

Come on mods. Can't you get these kremlin trolls banned for a bit more time?
How many times do they have to make a comeback before you understand what's going on?

Regardless of their earlier posts, Ihavewaffles raised a valid point for discussion in this one. Ukraine's own 2001 census (latest one in their Wiki article) stated 17.1% of their population was of Russian ethnicity. This is, of course, much less than the number of Russian speakers at the time (30% of the population). Even then, ethnicity is always a matter of self-identification to a degree. Someone with both Ukrainian and Russian ancestors may have defined themselves as Russian at the time, especially in Russian-speaking areas and they might think differently after two years of special military operation. And we have reports of Russian speakers, having witnessed the atrocities of the invaders, taking up Ukrainian in numbers.

But whatever the numbers are, Ukraine will be bound to recognise minority rights, including language rights. Especially if they want to join the EU. At the same time, census data can not be the foundation of territorial expansion.

[Nymrohd]

Regardless of their earlier posts, Ihavewaffles raised a valid point for discussion in this one. Ukraine's own 2001 census (latest one in their Wiki article) stated 17.1% of their population was of Russian ethnicity. This is, of course, much less than the number of Russian speakers at the time (30% of the population). Even then, ethnicity is always a matter of self-identification to a degree. Someone with both Ukrainian and Russian ancestors may have defined themselves as Russian at the time, especially in Russian-speaking areas and they might think differently after two years of special military operation. And we have reports of Russian speakers, having witnessed the atrocities of the invaders, taking up Ukrainian in numbers.

But whatever the numbers are, Ukraine will be bound to recognise minority rights, including language rights. Especially if they want to join the EU. At the same time, census data can not be the foundation of territorial expansion.

I have to say, I know people oppose this idea but given we can clearly see the catastrophic results of not doing so with Israel, a population exchange will all but be required when this war ends.
So I'll say that when Ukraine does join the EU, it should not have an ethnic Russian minority.

[Saradain]

Regardless of their earlier posts, Ihavewaffles raised a valid point for discussion in this one. Ukraine's own 2001 census (latest one in their Wiki article) stated 17.1% of their population was of Russian ethnicity. This is, of course, much less than the number of Russian speakers at the time (30% of the population). Even then, ethnicity is always a matter of self-identification to a degree. Someone with both Ukrainian and Russian ancestors may have defined themselves as Russian at the time, especially in Russian-speaking areas and they might think differently after two years of special military operation. And we have reports of Russian speakers, having witnessed the atrocities of the invaders, taking up Ukrainian in numbers.

But whatever the numbers are, Ukraine will be bound to recognise minority rights, including language rights. Especially if they want to join the EU. At the same time, census data can not be the foundation of territorial expansion.

Yet when you see what he is replying to, it's pretty clear he still denies a genocide that Russia has intended, has committed itself to, and has officially been recognized of doing. His modus operandi is clear, and now you have given him a greenlight to continue. Quick jabs at linking random youtubers, one-liners without any input from himself, just vague replies as he obviously cannot defend his viewpoints for which he has been sent to a vacation before.

[Specialka]

Poland changed its government and is one of the most promising countries in the EU when it comes to their economy

Can you elaborate instead of posting that kind of phrase that means nothing ?

- - - Updated - - -

I have to say, I know people oppose this idea but given we can clearly see the catastrophic results of not doing so with Israel, a population exchange will all but be required when this war ends.
So I'll say that when Ukraine does join the EU, it should not have an ethnic Russian minority.

A population exchange would not be seen as a genocide of some kind (legally speaking) ?

[Nymrohd]

Can you elaborate instead of posting that kind of phrase that means nothing ?

PiS lost the elections did they not? And they have decent gdp growth.

A population exchange would not be seen as a genocide of some kind (legally speaking) ?

It's the difference between ethnic cleansing and genocide.

[Specialka]

PiS lost the elections did they not? And they have decent gdp growth.



It's the difference between ethnic cleansing and genocide.

That alone does not make them a "one of the most promising countries in the EU when it comes to their economy". And I am waiting for the new gov to remove most of the laws that the PiS voted.

So it is ok to do one 'for the greater good' and not the other ? Looks like a slippery slope to me.

[Saradain]

That alone does not make them a "one of the most promising countries in the EU when it comes to their economy". And I am waiting for the new gov to remove most of the laws that the PiS voted.

So it is ok to do one 'for the greater good' and not the other ? Looks like a slippery slope to me.

If Russia is oh-so-worried for the russian speakers in Ukraine that they are going gung-ho for genocide, an amicable "population exchange" as in lawful, willing relocation of those who wish to identify themselves russians, currently living in Ukraine sounds like a good idea to avoid these..."misunderstandings".

[Nymrohd]

If Russia is oh-so-worried for the russian speakers in Ukraine that they are going gung-ho for genocide, an amicable "population exchange" as in lawful, willing relocation of those who wish to identify themselves russians, currently living in Ukraine sounds like a good idea to avoid these..."misunderstandings".

There is nothing pretty about a population exchange even when lawful. I grew up with the stories from my grandparents, all of them were displaced.
But imo it is still better than the alternative.

[Saradain]

There is nothing pretty about a population exchange even when lawful. I grew up with the stories from my grandparents, all of them were displaced.
But imo it is still better than the alternative.

Well yeah, if Russia makes up excuses that range from nazis to worries, you can't appease them but at least you can say you tried. Terrorist nazi state will do its natural thing and invade either way.

If the world truly wants this war to end, then supply Ukraine enough to drive out the orcs from Crimea and other lawfully recognized regions alike. Then EU, NATO membership and the threat suddenly is gone forever, as was with Finland.

Russia sure fears NATO when they abandon their northern bases next to Finland after NATO membership came. Makes you think...