Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Draco-Onis]

...except the rules and limits of international diplomacy. Just as there ever was.

Classic slippery slope fallacy.

What limits? you just said there isn't an arbiter because it's never been done. How are there rules and limitations for something that is a first?

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…are you alleging that the US sanctioning Russia for invading Ukraine is somehow an example of US duplicity and subterfuge?

Because it would seem to me that not being slammed by sanctions like Russia has might just be as easy as not invading another country.

Sanctions are to be expected I am referring to unprecedented levels of which those sanctions have been taken to. There's a reason Russia couldn't counter some of these moves it's because they had a certain level of faith that some lines wouldn't be crossed.

[Kaleredar]

What limits? you just said there isn't an arbiter because it's never been done. How are there rules and limitations for something that is a first?

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Sanctions are to be expected I am referring to unprecedented levels of which those sanctions have been taken to. There's a reason Russia couldn't counter some of these moves it's because they had a certain level of faith that some lines wouldn't be crossed.

…so because the US responded with strong sanctions, as opposed to the “expected” token limp-Dick ones, in such a way that they might actually punish Russia for their unwanted aggression… “US bad?”

This is the kind of soft power I prefer seeing the US using in such situations as these. No boots on the ground. No bombs being dropped. No drone strikes. Just walking softly while carrying a big stick.

[DarkTZeratul]

Sanctions are to be expected I am referring to unprecedented levels of which those sanctions have been taken to. There's a reason Russia couldn't counter some of these moves it's because they had a certain level of faith that some lines wouldn't be crossed.

I'm pretty sure there aren't any sanctions that have been applied to Russia that haven't previously been applied to countries like North Korea or Iran.

There are also a lot of sanctions that *haven't* been applied; for instance, it is not illegal for US companies to conduct business with Russia, a lot of companies have just voluntarily elected to stop doing so.

[Draco-Onis]

I'm pretty sure there aren't any sanctions that have been applied to Russia that haven't previously been applied to countries like North Korea or Iran.

There are also a lot of sanctions that *haven't* been applied; for instance, it is not illegal for US companies to conduct business with Russia, a lot of companies have just voluntarily elected to stop doing so.

The global banking system is not entirely closed to North Korea or Iran, the Swiss were only forced to close the accounts of North Korea due to UN sanction around 2016. This is not the same situation in any way shape or form.

[Easo]

No, BBC, this is not "A Ukrainian soldier walks past a destroyed Russian tank in Kharkiv", it is "A Ukrainian soldier walks past a destroyed Ukrainian armoured personnel carrier in Kharkiv". No, Daily Mail, same goes for you (though not surprising in this case), and no, it isnt, various random Polish and Finnish newspages, probably some others too.


https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60774819

Details do matter.

[Edge-]

It's not BBC, that image is from Getty and I'm inclined to believe that Getty is appropriately naming their pictures. Here's the picture - https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/n...?adppopup=true

Sure it's not a tank specifically, but it seems to have the same "cope cage" around its turret that we've seen a lot of Russian armor adopting.

[YUPPIE]

putin seems to be getting more unhinged by the day. Are we certain he does not have the absolute authority on nukes? Some redditors claimed he does, and that the oligarchs and general staff have absolutely no power to veto or object to Putin's decisions.

[Edge-]

Some redditors claimed he does

I hear some people say that Putin is actually an alien. Some people are saying it!

[Easo]

It's not BBC, that image is from Getty and I'm inclined to believe that Getty is appropriately naming their pictures. Here's the picture - https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/n...?adppopup=true

Yeah, except it is not. BTR-4 is a not a Russian tank and that thing in the picture is a burned down BTR-4 APC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BTR-4

Let's be even more specific - the one burning in front of the abandoned Russian Tigr 4x4 APC's, when Russians tried to scout Kharkiv with light units and subsequently were forced to retreat.
This one (warning, first picture is NSFW)
https://lostarmour.info/armour/item.php?id=30042

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/0...equipment.html
Number 4 (destroyed) under BTR-4 for Ukraine

[YUPPIE]

I hear some people say that Putin is actually an alien. Some people are saying it!

I mean, another thing I said that people rebuked was America wouldn't get involved, but Putin seems to be pushing that line SO hard right now it feels inevitable we will get fully involved. He's implicitly killing random American journalists and the sanctions are consequently coming down harder and harder, leading to his further downward spiral.

How can he be stopped? No one can obviously kill him, he can't be reasoned with at all anymore, and he said he explicitly will take Ukraine unless he is dead.

Today he made that crazed speech threatening the West and it was chilling. I think he will launch nukes eventually even as a mere warning, and that no one should have faith in him being pragmatic or rational now from the way he is.

[DarkTZeratul]

The global banking system is not entirely closed to North Korea or Iran, the Swiss were only forced to close the accounts of North Korea due to UN sanction around 2016. This is not the same situation in any way shape or form.

I dunno, you just admitted the Swiss were forced to close access to North Korea, sounds like the same situation to me. Elaborate, please, on how it's "not the same situation in any way shape or form."

He's implicitly killing random American journalists

No, Putin is not "implicitly killing random American journalists." They were reporting from a war zone and got killed. That's a risk they take. It sucks, but it's war.

[Corvus]

Putin's demands per his phone call with Turkey.

Basically, nothing has changed.

Neutrality, demilitarisation so that Ukraine poses 'no threat', denazification (which is highly offensive but Ukraine has been doing a good job of it the last 3 weeks killing Russians), Crimea permanently Russian, recognition of Donetsk/Lugansk.

[YUPPIE]

No, Putin is not "implicitly killing random American journalists." They were reporting from a war zone and got killed. That's a risk they take. It sucks, but it's war.

but Biden escalated the sanctions and gave a grave warning to Putin over this.

[PhaelixWW]

What limits? you just said there isn't an arbiter because it's never been done. How are there rules and limitations for something that is a first?

Are you suggesting that the only thing that ever stops people from doing immoral things is a codified system of laws and an arbiter?

Wow.

Sometimes people don't do something because it's wrong. Sometimes they don't do it because they know that others will think it's wrong. Sometimes, they decide that they need rules and an arbiter just in case someone does it anyway.

You're ignoring that those first two are even a thing.

[Edge-]

but Biden escalated

No honey, no he didn't.

[YUPPIE]

No honey, no he didn't.

I've been following World News every day to find Biden making some badass remark. So unless it's all bluster, I'm inclined to believe he is serious. The guy has won my approval with not cowing down to Putin.

[dextersmith]

A lot of this hasn't been done before because people feared what precedence it would set. At the moment there are no rules or limit to this happening again to any nation that the US doesn't like.

If there were no possibility of nukes and world war, I'm sure the US and EU would have preferred to be more direct rather than settling for sanctions. So future sanctions would only be used with those with nukes.

[Draco-Onis]

Are you suggesting that the only thing that ever stops people from doing immoral things is a codified system of laws and an arbiter?

Wow.

Sometimes people don't do something because it's wrong. Sometimes they don't do it because they know that others will think it's wrong. Sometimes, they decide that they need rules and an arbiter just in case someone does it anyway.

You're ignoring that those first two are even a thing.

We are talking about countries and the global financial system along with the rules that govern it not one random dude not following the law wow indeed.

[Corvus]

WHO has verified 43 attacks on hospitals and health facilities by Russian forces. Those are just the verified ones.

[Draco-Onis]

If there were no possibility of nukes and world war, I'm sure the US and EU would have preferred to be more direct rather than settling for sanctions. So future sanctions would only be used with those with nukes.

That may be true but there is no rules for any of this at the moment, if you are a country who is not on Santa US good list you will want an alternative for your assets now.