Russian invasion of Ukraine

[jonnysensible]

Your point is ? Unless you want Ukraine to become the next Syria, negociations would be preferable unfortunately.

how are they possible though. Russia wants territory and the full liquidation of Ukraine as a state. We have seen what Russia do when they occupy : rape, summary executions and forced displacement. How could you surrender towns of your people to that?

Ukraine are in a battle to the death.

[Cynep]

Your point is ? Unless you want Ukraine to become the next Syria, negociations would be preferable unfortunately.

Unless I want Ukraine to become split like Korea, negotiations are inevitable. But surrendering parts of Ukrainian territory is not what Ukrainian President is willing to do, but exactly what several posters here are promoting. Does "territorial integrity" sound reasonable or unreasonable to you?

[Iphie]

GG Google. Well played.

I noticed that too...

With inexperience I mean he's not been chancellor long and the news says he's a bit of a Novice in these matters.

[Forogil]

how are they possible though. Russia wants territory and the full liquidation of Ukraine as a state. We have seen what Russia do when they occupy : rape, summary executions and forced displacement. How could you surrender towns of your people to that?

And even if Russia gave up those demands Ukraine would as a minimum want Russia to guarantee that they stay on their side of the new border, we have also seen how much such Russian guarantees are worth.

It might still be that Ukraine agrees to a cease-fire (possibly called "peace"), but I don't think that either side will believe the other side will stick to the agreement in the future.

[Kaleredar]

And even if Russia gave up those demands Ukraine would as a minimum want Russia to guarantee that they stay on their side of the new border, we have also seen how much such Russian guarantees are worth.

It might still be that Ukraine agrees to a cease-fire (possibly called "peace"), but I don't think that either side will believe the other side will stick to the agreement in the future.

Ukraine needs a military alliance with NATO/EU countries for any “ceasefire” to be meaningful.

[Vakna]

How they going to speak up when even saying Ukraine is a separate country gets them fired:
https://www.businessinsider.com/russ...comment-2022-4

Realistically, deterrents like this only work if few people speak up. What is Russia going to do, fire 100 million people? Kill or imprison 100 million people? Good luck to Putin at that point, ruling over a country that doesn't exist because nobody is working in any industry and you are trying to imprison 75% of your population.

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And even if Russia gave up those demands Ukraine would as a minimum want Russia to guarantee that they stay on their side of the new border, we have also seen how much such Russian guarantees are worth.

It might still be that Ukraine agrees to a cease-fire (possibly called "peace"), but I don't think that either side will believe the other side will stick to the agreement in the future.

In the 1990's, Ukraine relinquished it's nuclear weapons and status as a nuclear state, in exchange for a guarantee from Russia that their sovereign borders would be respected and upheld in the future. I think it's safe to say that any agreement Russia makes should be treated like it doesn't exist, because they have no concept of keeping promises.

[Finlandia WOAT]

There's a massive difference between an opinion like: "based on x, y and z factors I think this will ultimately end with Ukraine signing an agreement in which they make concessions based on geopolitically realities", and "Ukraine should just roll over and give Russia whatever they want to end the war."

I disagree with the latter because at this stage the Ukrainians have shown they are more than capable to fight the invaders provided they have Western weapons, and thus far they have shown they're willing to fight. Ignoring that the Ukrainians want to fight implicitly accedes that the Ukrainians and their state have no agency- hence why it's often used by Russian shills.

I disagree with the former as well. From the Ukrainian side, any agreement that doesn't end with strong security guarantees is not a "peace deal" at all: it is a ceasefire, and next time Russia does this they won't make every mistake possible in botching their invasion. From the Russian side, any agreement that doesn't end with Russian supremacy- in other words, is not hilariously loaded toward the Russian side and is not signed by Zelenskyy at the end of a gun- will be perceived as a devestating loss for Russia. Why put up with the Fascist leader who promises to make Russia great again when he utterly fails in even doing that? Putin came into power after avenging the Russian defeat to the Chechens, after all.

Basically, unless the Ukrainian situation is significantly worse than we've been lead to believe (which is completely plausible imo), there isn't going to be a deal, Ukraine will fight until they've retaken the Donbas, no matter how long that takes.

Good news is, it appears that Ukrainians are being trained in Lithuania and in the Us of A, ostensibly in the US of Western weapons. Time is actually on the Ukrainians' side on this point, in 3 months you can start sending people who, while not experts since they're VERY complicated systems, will know which end of the Patriot missile goes into the tube. Meanwhile Russia is running out of equipment and has zero means of replacing it.

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No, but he was pro-surrender. I guess that's why you defend him? ;P

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Before this, there was no central command of the invasion, at all. Now everyone reports to Dvornikov, the man in charge of southern front. Makes sense looking at their accomplishments.

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A borderline offtopic piece of info: today there are elections not only in France but also in South Ossetia, Russian-occupied part of Georgia. Incumbent president is expected to win, most opposition candidates had their registration refused.

What is relevant, their president announced to hold a referendum after his victory, in May or June, to join Russia officially like Crimea; at some point later North and South Ossetia are expected to merge. Ossetians are the only local people living on both sides of Great Caucasus mountains.

You're in Donetsk, right?

I've read that Russia turned it into something akin to a Mad Max world. There are no jobs but government jobs, everyone is "encouraged" to donate their salaries to the Separatist "army", people are joining the Separatist "army" because there are no jobs. That Kharkiv, Chernihiv and Sumy saw all this first hand is putatively why they're resisting so fiercely.

Is this accurate at all?

[Forogil]

In the 1990's, Ukraine relinquished it's nuclear weapons and status as a nuclear state, in exchange for a guarantee from Russia that their sovereign borders would be respected and upheld in the future. I think it's safe to say that any agreement Russia makes should be treated like it doesn't exist, because they have no concept of keeping promises.

Yes, I wrote my post knowing that - and more importantly Ukraine and Russia know that, which makes it difficult to get any good deal.

I would say that unless there's a regime change in Russia I wouldn't trust any peace deal.

[Breccia]

In a move that I would describe as "eerily Trumpian" Russians are cutting up their Chanel bags to protest sanctions.

Now I'm just guessing here, but I don't think every Russian has the money to (a) own a Chanel bag and (b) want to destroy it in public. Also, funny story, nobody's being arrested for this form of protest. Huh. What are the odds.

"Okay, but 'Trumpian'?"

Remember when Trump supporters were destroying their k-cup machines? Sometimes even buying them just to break them? That was because Roy Moore was caught making moves on children when he was in his 30s, followed by Hannity defending Roy Moore, and then a bunch of companies noping the fuck ouit of advertising.

Yeah, the problem wasn't Roy Moore being a Trump-backed pedophile or Hannity defending the pedophile. It was the boycott of FOX News by the principles they embodied.

Sounds a lot like Russia boycotting the sanctions while Putin murders, rapes, and kidnaps civilians, doesn't it?

[Dunachar]

That's the way all those who support war criminals think and operate. It is about defending a fundamentally warped mental understanding. Perhaps even more importantly, there's a lot of mythomania, narcissism and delusion with one's nation's percieved historic victimhood involved in this; the justification of war crimes is simply compounding this. At a certain level, the infatuation with one's own nation and ethnic heritage, combined with the delusions of grandeur and mythomania, leads to the complete inability of a people to accept their and/or their nation's mistakes.

Precisely. Very similar mindset is found in certain religions, too. "We have never done anything wrong, and we do not need to change our ways; everyone else must!" The more backwards and oppressive the culture is, the stronger such sentiments tend to be.

As someone living in Russia's neighbouring country, it has always filled me with frustration to see how so many people have either been completely oblivious to Russia's true nature as a country and the direction Putin has been taking it, or they have been constantly lying about it to themselves and others. Such people tend to be wrong in a myriad of other issues as well.

And such people never change. Even if they are forced to admit they've been wrong in this particular matter, they will continue to be wrong in countless other matters -- and always the important ones.

[Slant]

How they going to speak up when even saying Ukraine is a separate country gets them fired:
https://www.businessinsider.com/russ...comment-2022-4

Still better than being deaded by another country for literally no good reason.

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Your point is ? Unless you want Ukraine to become the next Syria, negociations would be preferable unfortunately.

Selenskyy said there would be a referendum on these topics. And... negotiations with fucking whom? Russia has no say in how Ukraine runs its country. It's a sovereign, independent nation that bows to no one. As you can clearly see every single day of what is shaping up to be the biggest humiliation since Finnland kicked Russian ass through snow.

And while we're on the subject, what worth are negotiations with a country that is compulsively lying everytime they open their mouth?

[zorkuus]

Your point is ? Unless you want Ukraine to become the next Syria, negociations would be preferable unfortunately.

Negotiations with shameless liars is pointless. Russia can suck it.

[Specialka]

Still better than being deaded by another country for literally no good reason.

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Selenskyy said there would be a referendum on these topics. And... negotiations with fucking whom? Russia has no say in how Ukraine runs its country. It's a sovereign, independent nation that bows to no one. As you can clearly see every single day of what is shaping up to be the biggest humiliation since Finnland kicked Russian ass through snow.

And while we're on the subject, what worth are negotiations with a country that is compulsively lying everytime they open their mouth?

Sure, you want Russia to level more cities ? Because that is what you are pushing for. Obviously, all this is a big humiliation for Russia. They counted for a quick victory and here we are nearly 2 months later. So you can be sure that they will try to get it as a win.

[zorkuus]

Sure, you want Russia to level more cities ? Because that is what you are pushing for. Obviously, all this is a big humiliation for Russia. They counted for a quick victory and here we are nearly 2 months later. So you can be sure that they will try to get it as a win.

Tell me... what kind of a deal would you hope to get at the negotiation table that they wouldn't break on a later date?

[Corvus]

As an example of just what an alternative reality Russians live in, these are some of the claims in a 'museum' in Yaroslavl.

https://mobile.twitter.com/visegrad2...98097371295747

[zorkuus]

As an example of just what an alternative reality Russians live in, these are some of the claims in a 'museum' in Yaroslavl.

https://mobile.twitter.com/visegrad2...98097371295747

Looks like they've chosen to go full North Korea.

[Edge-]

As an example of just what an alternative reality Russians live in, these are some of the claims in a 'museum' in Yaroslavl.

https://mobile.twitter.com/visegrad2...98097371295747

...why fuckin Columbus? Of all the people they fuckin pick to try to claim as their own, they go with that loser?

[D Luniz]

Sure, you want Russia to level more cities ? Because that is what you are pushing for. Obviously, all this is a big humiliation for Russia. They counted for a quick victory and here we are nearly 2 months later. So you can be sure that they will try to get it as a win.

"Do what we say or we'll kill you" isn't negotiation, its a mugging

[zorkuus]

...why fuckin Columbus? Of all the people they fuckin pick to try to claim as their own, they go with that loser?

He was a genocidal liar. Why wouldn't they choose him as their champion?

[Santti]

...why fuckin Columbus? Of all the people they fuckin pick to try to claim as their own, they go with that loser?

I don't know. I guess it's some sort of attempt at making Russia seem stronger/better than US, because Russia "found" the New World, and USA ought to be grateful for it?

Is this a real thing? Because this is just too comical.