Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Santti]

Gonna be hard when their state media was already talking about the big strong storm that sunk their precious, irreplaceable boat

Their media seems to be in a bit of a twist about that.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/com...ir_main_state/

Like, they are calling that sinking Moskva is now a war.

War against what? Ships that spontaneously combust, which appears to be Kremlin's stance on the issue, and totally not Ukraine?

[Poopymonster]

Uhhhh. Just read an interview with a journalist and a writer that worked in Russia for decades about how Russians actually function under all that propaganda, and it was a hard read. They are basically hard coded to obey their superiors and think that their country is de best. Or how they not know about WW2 western front, thinking it was Red Army alone that defeated Hitler. And that they have a long history of cruelty spanning back to being fucked by Mongols 800y ago. Their military is probably the last one that uses reconnaissance by fire, which means they sacrifice a small force of soldiers to see where the enemy sits (instead of like, sending a drone). Or how soldier wives were all giddy, because their husbands will bring them clothing taken from dead Ukrainians. We were all told not to hate your random Ivan and I was always strongly against shitting on entire nations, but I think it's time to change some views.

The highlight of the interview was this: the journalist one time asked a young Russian man that lived in the middle of nowhere in Kamchatka: "Wouldn't you prefer to live in a nice and rich Switzerland"?, and his response was "What? In such a tiny country?"

This sounds kinda familiar. Can't quite place my finger on it. Dare I call this "Russian Exceptionalism"?

[Belize]

Their media seems to be in a bit of a twist about that.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/com...ir_main_state/

Like, they are calling that sinking Moskva is now a war.

War against what? Ships that spontaneously combust, which appears to be Kremlin's stance on the issue, and totally not Ukraine?

It's been enlightening to see how in fucking shambles Russia is on all levels of organization.

Their propaganda outlets can't even agree with each other what the official talking points should be.

[Thekri]

It's been enlightening to see how in fucking shambles Russia is on all levels of organization.

Their propaganda outlets can't even agree with each other what the official talking points should be.

Moskva destroyed two Ukrainian Anti-Ship missiles!

[XDurionX]

I do like the 5Y graph. Putin wiped out nearly five years of growth.

...and he's far from being done.

[PhaelixWW]

Like, they are calling that sinking Moskva is now a war.

War against what? Ships that spontaneously combust, which appears to be Kremlin's stance on the issue, and totally not Ukraine?

War against Neptune, god of the sea.

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It's been enlightening to see how in fucking shambles Russia is on all levels of organization.

You know, it's kinda funny. We always sorta knew that the Russian government was "in organizational shambles", as you put it. So many stories of corruption: public devotion to the party line, but private peculation of the party's coffers.

Why did nobody think to wonder if the same was true about their military capabilities? Why would they be exempt? It's not like Russia's had to fight a legitimate foe in forever.

[Thekri]

Their media seems to be in a bit of a twist about that.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/com...ir_main_state/

Like, they are calling that sinking Moskva is now a war.

War against what? Ships that spontaneously combust, which appears to be Kremlin's stance on the issue, and totally not Ukraine?

I love Ukraine's story on how they sank it.

According to them, they used a Bayraktar drone to distract it, because the air search radar only has a narrow cone, it isn't a full 360 degree broadband radar. So while the only air search radar they had was staring at the drone, Ukraine launched two Neptunes at the opposite side of the ship.

Now here is the funny part. Moskva allegedly had a 360 degree air search radar. It has all the right antennas for it, it isn't supposed to have such a weakness at all. If it were any other country except Ukraine, this whole story would obviously be considered bullshit. What gives it a hilarious amount of credibility, is that the Ukrainian government pointed out that the Moskva was built in Ukraine. By Ukrainians. They still have one of her unfinished sister ships, they know everything about that ship.

In other words, the Soviet Union put a directional radar inside a white dome that looked like a 360 degree antenna, and pretended it was an actual modern search radar. And it might have worked, if Russia hadn't tried to bullshit the country that actually built it in the first place.

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Why did nobody think to wonder if the same was true about their military capabilities? Why would they be exempt? It's not like Russia's had to fight a legitimate foe in forever.

Everyone knew this, lol. Look at Skroe and my posts for the last 5-10 years. We were always patronizingly dismissive of all the Russian apologists bullshit claims, because we knew damn good and well none of this stuff worked. Most of us told ourselves they couldn't possibly be as bad as they looked, because we didn't want to underestimate them. But they absolutely looked this bad before they started this war, this is the result that all analysis suggested would happen, but most people gave Russia some free bonus points just because we didn't want to be too optimistic.

[CostinR]

I love Ukraine's story on how they sank it.

According to them, they used a Bayraktar drone to distract it, because the air search radar only has a narrow cone, it isn't a full 360 degree broadband radar. So while the only air search radar they had was staring at the drone, Ukraine launched two Neptunes at the opposite side of the ship.

I mean it's either one of the most hilarious true story of how Russia lost one of their top capital ships or it's such blatant bullshit that you can't help but laugh at how brazen the Ukrainians are about it.

Either way a good laugh thanks @Thekri I needed that in this miserable war.

[Thekri]

I mean it's either one of the most hilarious true story of how Russia lost one of their top capital ships or it's such blatant bullshit that you can't help but laugh at how brazen the Ukrainians are about it.

Either way a good laugh thanks @Thekri I needed that in this miserable war.

Considering Ukraine would have been extremely aware of its radar capabilities, I am inclined to think it is the truth. Russia claimed it was 360, but since Ukraine built 4 and a half ships exactly like this one, they would have known if it wasn't true.

[Mamut]

I mean it's either one of the most hilarious true story of how Russia lost one of their top capital ships or it's such blatant bullshit that you can't help but laugh at how brazen the Ukrainians are about it.

Either way a good laugh thanks @Thekri I needed that in this miserable war.

What's also funny, this ship was renovated by Ukraine in the 90s. The Russians, however, did not fully pay for the renovation, so the Ukrainians dismantled some of the systems. They were never replenished.

[PhaelixWW]

What's also funny, this ship was renovated by Ukraine in the 90s. The Russians, however, did not fully pay for the renovation, so the Ukrainians dismantled some of the systems. They were never replenished.

As I posted earlier, it was in for retrofit as recently as last year. One would imagine that that was in direct preparation for this very war.

For them to not upgrade their radar at the same time is just... stupid.

Didn't want to spend the cost to upgrade the radar, eh? How about the cost to replace the entire ship (which they can't, because they can't make any more), or even just the full complement of cruise missiles that are now littering the bottom of the Black Sea?

Guess that math didn't pan out.

Moskva: just another unforeseen casualty of the Glorious Russian 3-day War Special Military Operation.

[Masark]

As I posted earlier, it was in for retrofit as recently as last year. One would imagine that that was in direct preparation for this very war.

For them to not upgrade their radar at the same time is just... stupid.

Didn't want to spend the cost to upgrade the radar, eh? How about the cost to replace the entire ship (which they can't, because they can't make any more), or even just the full complement of cruise missiles that are now littering the bottom of the Black Sea?

Or they were supposed to upgrade the radar, but the flag officer(s) in charge of the matter pocketed the money and had the work faked.

[PhaelixWW]

Or they were supposed to upgrade the radar, but the flag officer(s) in charge of the matter pocketed the money and had the work faked.

Then I'll refer to another of my statements this morning:

Hmm, whichever general was in charge of the retrofit may want to think about a vacation, I'd say.

[Levelfive]

I love Ukraine's story on how they sank it.

According to them, they used a Bayraktar drone to distract it, because the air search radar only has a narrow cone, it isn't a full 360 degree broadband radar. So while the only air search radar they had was staring at the drone, Ukraine launched two Neptunes at the opposite side of the ship.

Now here is the funny part. Moskva allegedly had a 360 degree air search radar. It has all the right antennas for it, it isn't supposed to have such a weakness at all. If it were any other country except Ukraine, this whole story would obviously be considered bullshit. What gives it a hilarious amount of credibility, is that the Ukrainian government pointed out that the Moskva was built in Ukraine. By Ukrainians. They still have one of her unfinished sister ships, they know everything about that ship.

In other words, the Soviet Union put a directional radar inside a white dome that looked like a 360 degree antenna, and pretended it was an actual modern search radar. And it might have worked, if Russia hadn't tried to bullshit the country that actually built it in the first place.

I love everything about this story. This may have already been posted, but in the same vein, a Russian drone with a Canon camera and a plastic bottle and cap for a fuel nozzle: https://twitter.com/JasperEllens/sta...00xnf2SQzHWajA

[PhaelixWW]

Some interesting tidbits.

The Guardian: Ukraine braces for revenge attacks from Russia after Moskva sinking

Ukraine has said it is bracing itself for revenge attacks from Russia after the “significant and symbolic” sinking of Russia’s flagship cruiser, the Moskva.

The government in Kyiv said it had destroyed the giant missile cruiser during a combat operation against Russian vessels in the Black Sea on Wednesday. The boat’s ammunition deck exploded after it was hit by two Neptune anti-ship missiles, it added.

According to Lithuania’s foreign minister, Arvydas Anušauskas, the cruiser sent out a distress call. By 1.14am local time (2314 BST) on Thursday the Moskva was lying on its side and about half an hour later “all the electricity went out,” he posted on Facebook.

From 2am a Turkish ship managed to rescue 54 sailors. An hour later Turkey and Romania confirmed the ship had “completely sunk”. Ukrainian officials said stormy weather stopped Russian boats from carrying out an evacuation, adding: “Nature was on our side.”

The Kremlin has not given any details on possible casualties among the 510 crew of the Moskva, and has not released any photographs of the stricken ship.

An article published by the Tass state-run news agency initially claimed the “entire crew” had been evacuated. It was later edited to remove the word “entire”. One unconfirmed Ukrainian report said 14 sailors including the chief of Moskva’s medical service were taken to the Crimean port of Sevastopol. The fate of the other 494 was unknown, it said. If they are confirmed to have drowned it would amount to the largest number of deaths of Russian servicemen in a single incident since the second world war.

Anton Gerashchenko, a Ukrainian interior ministry adviser who has a popular Telegram channel, posted a photo of the Moskva’s captain, Anton Kuprin. Kuprin was killed during the explosion and fire on the ship, Gerashchenko claimed.

It was Kuprin who gave the order for the Moskva to shell Snake Island in the Black Sea during the first hours of Moscow’s invasion. Its Ukrainian defenders refused to surrender and said: “Russian warship ‘go fuck yourself’” – a slogan that has become a national meme.

Ukrainians on Friday celebrated the ship’s demise. The defence minister, Oleksii Reznikov, trolled his Russian counterparts by tweeting a photo of a scuba diver and a giant turtle. “A ‘flagship’ Russian warship is a worthy diving site,” he wrote, adding: “Will definitely visit the wreck after our victory in the war.”

Natalia Humeniuk, a spokesperson for Ukraine’s southern security and defence forces, said the sinking had dealt a blow to Vladimir Putin’s “imperial ambitions”. She added: “We understand that attacks will increase. The enemy will try to retaliate. It will increase rocket strikes and artillery shelling.”

Russia has said it is investigating what caused the Moskva to sink. Its defence ministry has promised to bomb targets in Kyiv in response to what it said were “terrorist and sabotage” attacks on its territory carried out by Ukraine’s “nationalist regime”. On Friday Moscow said it had struck a plant that made and repaired Ukrainian missiles, including anti-ship missiles, on the outskirts of the city.

On Russian television, hosts and pundits came perilously close to admitting that the loss of the cruiser was the result of an enemy attack as opposed to the result of an accident onboard. They also talked in vehement terms about wiping out “Ukraine-ness”.

“Just the fact there is an attack on our territory is casus belli, an absolute cause for war. A real war, no fooling around,” said the Russian film director and former MP Vladimir Bortko, on the popular 60 Minutes talkshow on state-run television. The special operation, as he was reminded Russia’s war is called, “ended tonight”.

When asked if he was speaking about the Moskva, he said: “The Moscow cruiser is absolutely a cause for war. One hundred per cent. It’s our flagship. There’s nothing to think about. We need an answer.”

On Telegram, prominent Russian officials sought to downplay the loss of a ship valued by Forbes at $750m (£575m). “The Moscow cruiser is a year older than me,” wrote Margarita Simonyan, the head of the state propaganda channel RT.

Andrei Medvedev, a deputy in the Moscow city parliament and a Russian state news journalist, paraphrased the Russian imperial field marshal Mikhail Kutuzov by writing: “The loss of [the] Moscow does not mean that Russia is lost.”

In a long post, he told his 70,000 subscribers on Telegram that the cruiser may indeed have been struck by a western missile with help from Nato and that the incident should be investigated.

“We are not fighting Ukraine, but Nato,” he wrote. “Strikes against our forces are made with the aid of Nato systems. And often with their weapons.” Like others, he added that the ship was old. “The Moskva, with all due respect, was not a young cruiser,” he wrote.

Ukraine says it has damaged or sunk eight Russian ships and boats, reducing Russia’s capacity to attack the south of Ukraine and the port city of Odesa. It said about 20,000 Russian soldiers and officers had been killed since the beginning of Putin’s military operation on 24 February.

In an intelligence update on Friday, the UK’s defence ministry said the Moskva “served a key role as a command vessel and air defence node”. Moscow was now likely to review its “maritime posture” in the Black Sea, it said. The Soviet-era boat had been through an extensive refit, only returning to service last year, it added.

The last time Russia lost its flagship cruiser was in 1904, when the imperial vessel Petropavlovsk went down in the tsar’s war with Japan. Ukrainian officials acknowledge the sinking of the Moskva does not mean Russia is beaten. But they see it as a signal event.

Russia, meanwhile, has used long-range Tupolev bombers for the first time to attack the besieged port city of Mariupol, Ukraine’s defence ministry spokesperson, Oleksandr Motuzyanyk, said on Friday. Russia had not managed to fully control the port city, he added, despite a six-week siege.

[Corvus]

I love everything about this story. This may have already been posted, but in the same vein, a Russian drone with a Canon camera and a plastic bottle and cap for a fuel nozzle: https://twitter.com/JasperEllens/sta...00xnf2SQzHWajA

Hadn't seen that one but had seen one of their 'modern' drones had been duct taped together.

[Breccia]

I love Ukraine's story on how they sank it.

Surely taking out the masterpiece of Rus--

According to them, they used a Bayraktar drone to distract it, because the air search radar only has a narrow cone, it isn't a full 360 degree broadband radar. So while the only air search radar they had was staring at the drone, Ukraine launched two Neptunes at the opposite side of the ship.

...they tapped it on the shoulder, made it turn around, then punched it? I've seen more involved strategies in Tom and Jerry cartoons.

I would say "I'm embarrassed they even tried it" but the results speak for themselves. I guess we're done overestimating these guys, when "hey look over there!" actually works.

[P for Pancetta]

Surely taking out the masterpiece of Rus--



...they tapped it on the shoulder, made it turn around, then punched it? I've seen more involved strategies in Tom and Jerry cartoons.

I would say "I'm embarrassed they even tried it" but the results speak for themselves. I guess we're done overestimating these guys, when "hey look over there!" actually works.

They've been planning this for a while. they've lost two bayraktar drones near there probably as a part of probing the defenses of the fleet/ship. It most likely was a pretty complex and well planned operation.

[PhaelixWW]

...they tapped it on the shoulder, made it turn around, then punched it? I've seen more involved strategies in Tom and Jerry cartoons.

I mean, a feint is an absolute classic, legitimate military tactic. They've been used in military campaigns since before the dawn of civilization.

That being said... hoooo boy. Falling prey to such a simple feint has to be a mortifying embarrassment for the Russian Navy.

I wonder what Sun Tzu would have to say about this... "When in Sea of Black... look out behind you!"

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So I guess Russia's started its retaliation for the sinking of the Moskva.

NYTimes: Russian forces shelled buses carrying evacuees, killing 7, official says.

Ukraine’s human rights ombudsman said on Friday that seven people were killed and 27 others were wounded when Russian soldiers opened fire on buses carrying evacuees in the Kharkiv region.

Lyudmila Denisova, the human rights commissioner for the Ukrainian parliament, said in a statement that civilians were targeted in a shelling campaign as they tried to flee the village of Borovo. She did not say when the attack happened.

Ms. Denisova appealed to the United Nations to investigate the atrocities, saying that they were the latest example of war crimes that violated the Geneva Conventions.

There was no immediate way to verify the account of Ms. Denisova, who has regularly leveled accusations of human rights abuses on social media and on the website of the secretariat of the commissioner for human rights.

Though nothing screams impotent rage more than retaliating for the sinking of a flagship by shelling civilian buses fleeing the front line.

[Breccia]

They've been planning this for a while. they've lost two bayraktar drones near there probably as a part of probing the defenses of the fleet/ship. It most likely was a pretty complex and well planned operation.

Oh I'll admit, it was clever to learn that such would even work. It would be clever to find out that, say, Anduin can be one-shot by the Golden Banana toy. It would still be immediately called a bug by everyone that plays, because "No, it can't be that easy, no way was Blizzard that stupid on purpose".

That's the analogy. Ukraine is throwing bananas at Russia. And it's working.

I mean, a feint is an absolute classic, legitimate military tactic. They've been used in military campaigns since before the dawn of civilization.

Yes. For most of that time, people didn't have 360 vision for 20 miles.