Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Shadowferal]

Yeah, as opposed to giving and being slaughtered, starved or deported to work camps, while having your whole way of life turned upside down anyways?

Hm..adds perspective to Putin's reasoning of a refugee corridor to Russia.

[Vankrys]

You know why Russia keeps spawning them "People's Republics" all over the place? One of the key things is to keep countries hosting them in a state of potential conflict at moment's notice.

That alone blocks any chance of NATO inviting said country ever. Ukraine has snowball's chance of getting into NATO as long as Donbas and even Crimea are a thing. It's really that simple. NATO does not invite trouble on itself, it goes completely against its core mission.

I'm sure someone said at some point that Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania will never join NATO.
I'm sure someone said at some point that Sweden and Finland will never join NATO, they're thinking about it now.
And you say Ukraine will never join NATO.

You must know something no one else does.

[Barzotti]

Why do people think those are the only options? you guys watch way too many movies, if Zelensky thought that he wouldn't be trying to compromise by lowering his demands. Russia isn't Nazi Germany the Germans were way more competent.

Because Russia is historically known for fucking up the countries it occupies? It's REALLY hard to give them the benefit of the doubt considering their track record.
And even if you ignore the Russian history, just look at the methods used during this invasion: shelling cities, deliberately targeting civilians, mining humanitarian corridors... Did Russia provide any option other than "we behave like war criminals and we can't be trusted"?

[Shadowferal]

I'm sure someone said at some point that Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania will never join NATO. I'm sure someone said at some point that Sweden and Finland will never join NATO, they're thinking about it now. And you say Ukraine will never join NATO. You must know something no one else does.

If Ukraine joins the EU then I'd say it doesn't matter if Ukraine joins NATO.

[Draco-Onis]

Because Russia is historically known for fucking up the countries it occupies? It's REALLY hard to give them the benefit of the doubt considering their track record.
And even if you ignore the Russian history, just look at the methods used during this invasion: shelling cities, deliberately targeting civilians, mining humanitarian corridors... Did Russia provide any option other than "we behave like war criminals"?

Do you have evidence of Russia running mass work or concentration camps in Crimea or any of their annexed territories?

[Gaidax]

I'm sure someone said at some point that Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania will never join NATO.
I'm sure someone said at some point that Sweden and Finland will never join NATO, they're thinking about it now.
And you say Ukraine will never join NATO.

You must know something no one else does.

Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania joined NATO when Russia was in the gutter of 1998 and was no threat whatsoever.

Big difference.

BTW this is Zelensky on NATO: https://www.bbc.com/ukrainian/news-6...yz3A6x5uAsyY3c

BBC Ukraine - can translate. Legit from the horse's mouth.

[Barzotti]

Do you have evidence of Russia running mass work or concentration camps in Crimea or any of their annexed territories?

You mean, like that?

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2...ines-war-camps

https://euromaidanpress.com/2021/01/...ia-since-2014/

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-po...eastern-europe

[Belize]

You simply don't get it, ma boi.

Some minor back and forths are nothing to write home about, the bottom line that said "armchair generals" tell you is that Ukraine simply is incapable of evicting Russia from its land by force.

Yes, there will be some back and forth, of course there will be - Ukraine clears some road, Russia grabs some village etc etc. But the big picture is that it's simply a stalemate, Ukraine can't win militarily in this war.

Yup yup, and Kyiv was supposed to have fallen after the first weekend.

Keep on doomin', the longer Russia stays in Ukraine, the worse it gets for them.

[Draco-Onis]

You mean, like that?

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2...ines-war-camps

I don't think people understand what mass concentration camps means, this is no different than prison camps in Russia for dissidents. The Russians are not the Nazis no matter how many internet memes you see.

[Barzotti]

I don't think people understand what mass concentration camps means, this is no different than prison camps in Russia for dissidents. The Russians are not the Nazis no matter how many internet memes you see.

So, you try acting smug by talking about concentration camps. I give you three separate links to refute your claim. You handwave them because "it's totally not like that! this concentration camp is totally not a concentration camp!" Well, here you go to the ignore list.

[Elegiac]

I don't think people understand what mass concentration camps means

Nah, pretty sure it's just you since you seem to think a concentration camp and a death camp are the same thing.

this is no different than prison camps in Russia for dissidents

So... concentration camps? Rofl.

[Gaidax]

Yup yup, and Kyiv was supposed to have fallen after the first weekend.

Keep on doomin', the longer Russia stays in Ukraine, the worse it gets for them.

I am sure this is all the while Ukrainians are Netflix chilling with a bowl of popcorn and cool cans of soda.

You just don't get it - Russian costs are huge, but Ukrainian costs are enormous. Russians pain is economy, Ukrainian pain is their cities being dusted, people dying by thousands and running away by millions.

In this game of whose costs are insurmountably higher, it's plain simple - Ukraine "wins".

[Draco-Onis]

So, you try acting smug by talking about concentration camps. I give you three separate links to refute your claim. You handwave them because "it's not totally like that!"

Authoritarian countries running prison camps for anyone who speaks against them is par for the course sadly, it's not the final solution by any means.

[Vankrys]

If Ukraine joins the EU then I'd say it doesn't matter if Ukraine joins NATO.

Here is the thing, NATO is not an economic agreement, i think everyone knows that, though it does encourage friendly economic and trading relationship between members. But, safety and stability does help a country to develop its economy, and NATO provide that.

For exemple, investing billions of dollars in Ukraine building manufacture plants or oil refinery, even before the war, was a risky venture. Ukraine alone cannot guaranty its safety and, if Russia seize or destroy the plant, investors stand to lose billions.
Contrast this with country like the Baltic country. The relative safety provided by NATO, can and does attract foreign investments. Lithuania GDP increase 500% in the last 20 years.

There is a link between safety and prosperity.

[Elegiac]

Authoritarian countries running prison camps for anyone who speaks against them is par for the course sadly, it's not the final solution by any means.

Nice goalpost shifting. We've gone from "can you provide any evidence that Russia is running concentration camps" to "well they're no different from the concentration camps used by most authoritarian regimes".

I really don't get what you think you're accomplishing here by carrying water for the Kremlin like this.

[Barzotti]

Nah, pretty sure it's just you since you seem to think a concentration camp and a death camp are the same thing.



So... concentration camps? Rofl.

Apparently it's not a real concentration camp if there isn't a sign "Arbeit macht frei" at the main door. I guess uyghur camps aren't real concentration camps either.

[Draco-Onis]

Apparently it's not a real concentration camp if there isn't a sign "Arbeit macht frei" at the main door. I guess uyghur camps aren't real concentration camps either.

Since you can't tell the difference one is a dictatorship arresting anyone who speaks against them the other is arresting people because of their race or religious belief regardless of their actions. Russia isn't rounding up every Ukrainian in those territories to march them to the gas chamber.

[Elegiac]

Apparently it's not a real concentration camp if there isn't a sign "Arbeit macht frei" at the main door.

Oh, don't get it twisted; they know perfectly well what a concentration camp is because they've acknowledged as such regarding the Trump administration's own use of concentration camps against asylum seekers.

Which is why it's baffling to me that they feel the need to excuse the Kremlin.

[Vankrys]

Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania joined NATO when Russia was in the gutter of 1998 and was no threat whatsoever.

Big difference.

BTW this is Zelensky on NATO: https://www.bbc.com/ukrainian/news-6...yz3A6x5uAsyY3c

BBC Ukraine - can translate. Legit from the horse's mouth.

Russia is entering a dark age with those sanctions. Back to the gutter for them is not unlikely.

[Elegiac]

Since you can't tell the difference one is a dictatorship arresting anyone who speaks against them the other is arresting people because of their race or religious belief regardless of their actions. Russia isn't rounding up every Ukrainian in those territories to march them to the gas chamber.

Neither did the Nazis to start with. You also seem to be unaware that said camps were also used for political dissidents, as well as that one of the Kremlin's stated policy positions being that a distinct Ukrainian identity is a post-Soviet aberration that needs 'correction'.

Again, not sure what you think you're accomplishing here.