Russian invasion of Ukraine

[beanman12345]

Who do you mean?

Include quotes.

You could just read the last 2 pages... If you have to ask, using quotes won't fix ya.

[jonnysensible]

saw the vid of russian orcs looting houses. Proper taking TV's and microwaves, discipline absolutely fucked. and the reports of murder and rape, like Chechnya.

heard that intercepted phone call of the russian troop moaning about frostbite, having to live with loads of his comrades bodies because they couldnt do anything with them, and not having body armour. lol get wrecked. commander telling them it will be over in 4 days lmao

[Liftbrul]

commander telling them it will be over in 4 days lmao

Hopefully by way of a Ukrainian bullet. These wretches deserve no less.

[PhaelixWW]

You could just read the last 2 pages... If you have to ask, using quotes won't fix ya.

Okay, let me blunt, then.

Nobody is "arguing the immediate surrender of Ukraine".

You could always try to prove me wrong by posting examples of it, though, right?

[beanman12345]

Okay, let me blunt, then.

Nobody is "arguing the immediate surrender of Ukraine".

You could always try to prove me wrong by posting examples of it, though, right?

Bless your heart.

[qwerty123456]

saw the vid of russian orcs looting houses. Proper taking TV's and microwaves, discipline absolutely fucked. and the reports of murder and rape, like Chechnya.

heard that intercepted phone call of the russian troop moaning about frostbite, having to live with loads of his comrades bodies because they couldnt do anything with them, and not having body armour. lol get wrecked. commander telling them it will be over in 4 days lmao

They probably heard all those "heroic" war stories from their Grandfather's time in Germany and wanted to get in on the action.

[PhaelixWW]

Bless your heart.

Thought so. You've got nothing.

Bless yours right back.

[beanman12345]

Thought so. You've got nothing.

Bless yours right back.

I already said I got the last 2 pages. If you can't read them and easily see you are wrong, than as I said, posting them again would be pointless. Either way, stop spamming me, thanks.

[PhaelixWW]

I already said I got the last 2 pages. If you can't read them and easily see you are wrong, than as I said, posting them again would be pointless.

Nah, I read the last two pages again just to double check, even though I already knew you were just making things up by intentionally misunderstanding what's being said.

And you're still wrong. I even awaited your response pointing out the quotes, so we could discuss your error, but you're not interested, likely because you know you can't back it up.

Thanks for making it clear that you have no meaningful point and that your statement was made just to try to stir shit up.

Either way, stop spamming me, thanks.

We can all go back to real discussion now without your distraction, sure.

[beanman12345]

Nah, I read the last two pages again just to double check, even though I already knew you were just making things up by intentionally misunderstanding what's being said.

And you're still wrong. I even awaited your response pointing out the quotes, so we could discuss your error, but you're not interested, likely because you know you can't back it up.

Thanks for making it clear that you have no meaningful point and that your statement was made just to try to stir shit up.



We can all go back to real discussion now without your distraction, sure.

Dude, I thought I was crystal clear in my first reply, and my last, but I guess this seems extremely hard for you. I do not care to fix your reading comprehension problems, and I'm not going to try. So yes, I'll say again, you no longer spamming so the thread can get back on track would be appreciated as already said. Fuck it, wasting of my time. Just going on the ignore, don't think you can help youself, spam another one away.

[jonnysensible]

russians are having crazy trouble in Mykolaiv. "They have no will to fight. They don't even have food. It's -10 with snow here, they don't want to be here."

Low quality troops there as well. Its mainly Russian army units playing supporting roles whilst cannon fodder Chechen and Separatist units are sent to their doom. The Chechen and Separatist forces have performed incredibly badly so far in this war and don't look like they are getting any better.

The move towards Odessa seemed to be a political one from the start (i.e military and FSB said it would be easy and they could do it no problem), as it really isn't that important.

I see the Russian troops are complaining about leaving towns and villages intact as they go past them. Saying they should wipe them out and wipe out the civilians there as they keep getting attacked from all angles as they pass. Unlucky you fucking scumbags.

here is that phonecall from earlier btw : https://twitter.com/DAlperovitch/sta...53063267241994

[Easo]

Russian claims are it can disrupt LEO satellites, disrupt drones and controlled missiles and shield objects on the ground from radar at ranges between 150-300 KM. So not a small area. And this one was covering the Kyiv area. Reportedly it caused a Bayraktar drone in Syria to crash by causing it to loose control.

This post goes further into its capabilities and the significance of capturing it.

I guess we can take a number in the middle from that and in that case I am taking my words back, this thing is quite powerful after all. Now, whether that box can be delivered to West is a question.

This is an odd one - Russia had just one prototype of the T80UM2 tank, equipped with the Drozd-2 active protection system. It was spotted in the recent Zapad exercises, with the 4th Guards Tank.

Now it has been spotted in Ukraine. Destroyed.

With Russia supposed to have plenty of high end stock available, why a unique prototype would be assigned to frontline combat is a bit of a mystery.

Because it is old, like close to 30 years old. Internet says it has been paraded around for years, but it still is just an upgraded T-80U, thus pretty much a regular tank. I am going to go and guess that APS system was probably not in working condition, it would make little sense trying to maintain it 20 years for a single tank.

And I’m sure people said the same things about the countries Hitler was invading back in the 1930s...........

Hitler-Shmitler.
I am telling that peace is needed ASAP, not fight to the death. You, for some reason, see the word surrender instead. The longer it goes, the more people die. I do not care for nice slogans and we can all guess "what will happen in 5 years", aside from the obvious that Ukraine would be even more pumped full of Western weapons.

That's the most profoundly stupid meme logic anyone has ever come up with related to this specific topic. Anyone who parrots it is either a knuckledraging moron or disingenuous little shit.

There are good guys and bad guys here, and if you have a shred of decency your duty to yourself is to give support to the good guys. Within one's means. That can be anything from active support, financial support, political support, or just moral support. I don't have any desire to see any Ukrainians die or Russians for that matter (well, I can think of a few Russians who should fucking hug a creeper in Minecraft), but as long as the Ukrainians have any desire to fight, we must continue supporting them.

And if you haven't noticed, we are still supporting Ukraine - who is pushing for peace, with obvious willingness to talk about points previously "set in stone".
Longer war benefits no side and I asked something else entirely.

Ukraine WILL have to concede things. Crimea's 100% gone, likely the Donbass too. But Moscow likely still demands the virtual surrender of their autonomy, something a nation cannot simply accept.

They can't rush to these concessions like headless chicken because "think of the childrennn". For them a bad peace now likely means a worse war in 5 to 10 years. If they thought otherwise they'd already have surrendered. Ukraine cannot sustain is current level of devastation forever but neither can Russia sustain the current level of political stalemate, military embarrassment and economic disaster. Blinking too soon and letting too much go might very well mean Ivan comes back sometime down the line except this time around he's actually prepared, isn't stupid and rolls over them in a week instead, with much punishments for the country's previous defiance.

You don't rush to make deals with an untrustworthy, borderline irrational actor. At least not without getting into a better position first (or worsening theirs). And Russia has proven to be completely untrustworthy. Jury's out on the irrational bit but I'm honestly not optimistic at this point.

Russia being trustworthy or not does not matter, there will be no "good peace" anyway. Obviously both sides want better negotiating positions (hence the push in Mariupol and Ukraine trying to draw this out as much as possible), but both sides also want this to end ASAP.
Once more, I am not saying Ukraine should "surrender", as some here seem to think.

Since you like accuracy, 15km a day is a Kremlin fairy tale, that's 105km a week. Only happened during the first week in the south and north, not anymore.

Should I have said "not along the whole frontline", but in specific directions? There is no "Gotcha!", if there were they would not be taking new villages and small towns daily. Almost like terrain makes attacks mostly possible only along specific axis, along which the push is happening. No matter your feelings the "republics" are growing bigger and you have to be well aware that their status is the big issue in negotiations.

russians are having crazy trouble in Mykolaiv. "They have no will to fight. They don't even have food. It's -10 with snow here, they don't want to be here."

Low quality troops there as well. Its mainly Russian army units playing supporting roles whilst cannon fodder Chechen and Separatist units are sent to their doom. The Chechen and Separatist forces have performed incredibly badly so far in this war and don't look like they are getting any better.

The move towards Odessa seemed to be a political one from the start (i.e military and FSB said it would be easy and they could do it no problem), as it really isn't that important.

I see the Russian troops are complaining about leaving towns and villages intact as they go past them. Saying they should wipe them out and wipe out the civilians there as they keep getting attacked from all angles as they pass. Unlucky you fucking scumbags.

here is that phonecall from earlier btw : https://twitter.com/DAlperovitch/sta...53063267241994

Funny you say that - rebels are the ones doing most of the pushing in the east (especialy Lugansk), under the cover of Russian Airforce. You know why? Because they have 8 years of combat experience, that's why. It's funny, considering their equipment ranges from "we are hobos" to OK when compared to Russian army.

[Poopymonster]

It dates back a bit but Texas comes to mind.

And see how that turned out.

[jonnysensible]

Funny you say that - rebels are the ones doing most of the pushing in the east (especialy Lugansk), under the cover of Russian Airforce. You know why? Because they have 8 years of combat experience, that's why. It's funny, considering their equipment ranges from "we are hobos" to OK when compared to Russian army.

looks like Joint force operations there as you say. All the front line in the east has to do is pin the Ukrainian troops whilst the other troops move from Kharkiv and Mariupol to encircle them, the encirclement is the hard part.


Also : Lavrov: "When they [froze] the central bank reserves, nobody who was predicting what sanctions the west would pass could have pictured that. It's just thievery."

ahahahaha fuck off lavrov cry more

[CostinR]

Even if Ukraine took your advice and went down the road of appeasement, there's no guarantee Russia wouldn't come up with a new excuse to invade again a few years down the road. Any agreement they could draw up now wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on because their goal is regional influence over Ukraine, which they won't get until they install a friendly government. Considering the Russian army destroyed any goodwill Eastern Ukrainians had towards Russia with the death and destruction it's causing on civilian populations, I don't see a regime change lasting. This is obviously a misjudgment on Putin's part and there's no reason to give him anything. If anyone in Ukraine thought otherwise they would have surrendered by now.

8 years ago Ukraine signed the Minsk Agreement with Russia to prevent a full scale invasion when it seems quite very possible Russia would do it, 8 years ago Ukraine would have been conquered easily.

Here we are 8 years down the line and Ukraine's military is significantly superior. A few years from now they'll be even stronger. What Ukraine and the West need against Russia is time: Time to strengthen militaries, time for the sanctions to work and time to prepare.

You are right in that if there's any agreement today it won't last more then 5-10 years, but 5-10 years of Ukrainian cities not being flattened and their entire country destroyed is a good deal for them.

And I’m sure people said the same things about the countries Hitler was invading back in the 1930s.

.......

You’re not asking for peace, you’re asking them to kick the can down the road. That only helps Russia in the long term, not Ukraine.

The British kicked the can down the road in the 30s against Hitler because they knew they weren't ready for a war then. The public support wasn't there. the US likely wouldn't have gotten involved etc.

Then they won.

Shockingly global politics isn't a game of Total War. No one arguing Ukraine should make concessions is holding any delusions about Russia returning, but a 5 year is truce is better then Kiev becoming Aleppo this year.

Even if Ukraine gets a few military miracles Russia can, and would, level their cities into the dust and create the worst refugee crisis in a century on a level similar to WW2. Without an agreement today it doesn't matter if the Ukrainian flag still stands over Kiev, if there's no Kiev to speak of but a bombed out ruin with a population significantly reduced, starving and poor.

P.S. I take this matter very seriously. I live in Romania, who do you think Russia would go after next if they conquer Ukraine? I'm having conversations with my girlfriend about our future here in the next 10 years and whether or not there will be a future for us here. If Ukraine falls Moldova will be next this year most likely, and then? Then we get to see the 5-10 years of Russia building up military power to hit the Baltics, Poland and Romania.

[Gaidax]

The officer cadre might remember wars but they also remember they're paid in turnips pennies so stealing that tank fuel is suddenly a great deal.

Welcome to Russia... and Ukraine too tbh (I can only wonder how much of that aid is going right to the pockets of various officials and military commanders).

Generals in Russia get quite rich pretty fast, must be the salary. Not a new thing at all, it's decades old tradition.

Everyone in positions of power in Russia get quite rich pretty fast. Putin sure got that 140m yacht and his chill mansions from presidential salary.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay, let me blunt, then.

Nobody is "arguing the immediate surrender of Ukraine".

You could always try to prove me wrong by posting examples of it, though, right?

It's all extremes with these people.

Imagine saying words "negotiations", "compromise" and "concessions" on points somehow instantly translated into "immediate surrender".

I don't know, I'm not a native English speaker, maybe my English is unclear or some such.

/shrug

[ati87]

russians are having crazy trouble in Mykolaiv. "They have no will to fight. They don't even have food. It's -10 with snow here, they don't want to be here."

Low quality troops there as well. Its mainly Russian army units playing supporting roles whilst cannon fodder Chechen and Separatist units are sent to their doom. The Chechen and Separatist forces have performed incredibly badly so far in this war and don't look like they are getting any better.

The move towards Odessa seemed to be a political one from the start (i.e military and FSB said it would be easy and they could do it no problem), as it really isn't that important.

I see the Russian troops are complaining about leaving towns and villages intact as they go past them. Saying they should wipe them out and wipe out the civilians there as they keep getting attacked from all angles as they pass. Unlucky you fucking scumbags.

here is that phonecall from earlier btw : https://twitter.com/DAlperovitch/sta...53063267241994

Well doesn't really help that Putin sold this "Special operation" to his army by telling them that the people of ukraine will see you as liberators and will welcome them with open arms...instead of fighting.
An argument btw that has been used century's at this point so I'm honestly wondering why you still have idiots believing this line but that's a discussion on it's own.

[Gaidax]

You are right in that if there's any agreement today it won't last more then 5-10 years, but 5-10 years of Ukrainian cities not being flattened and their entire country destroyed is a good deal for them.

This is the key point people don't get here.

Right now Ukraine is fighting on fumes and with personal weapons, some missiles and such. They can't even make use of what West could potentially supply, simply because they don't have training that takes time.

That's why the West is hunting for Soviet stuff to give away to Ukraine, because Western one will take a good year to train to use and probably more to use effectively for Ukrainian army.

Nobody in their right mind thinks that Ukraine-Russia agreement would usher some new era of Peace and Happiness that will last decades, it is pretty clear for all that it will likely be just a several years break before it all flares up again. But the key thing is that Ukraine needs that time, both to rearm and train to use Western equipment AND for sanctions to actually bite and restrict Russia.

It's really that simple.

[Gorsameth]

8 years ago Ukraine signed the Minsk Agreement with Russia to prevent a full scale invasion when it seems quite very possible Russia would do it, 8 years ago Ukraine would have been conquered easily.

Here we are 8 years down the line and Ukraine's military is significantly superior. A few years from now they'll be even stronger. What Ukraine and the West need against Russia is time: Time to strengthen militaries, time for the sanctions to work and time to prepare.

You are right in that if there's any agreement today it won't last more then 5-10 years, but 5-10 years of Ukrainian cities not being flattened and their entire country destroyed is a good deal for them.

I love that your sitting at home in comfort telling the Ukrainians they should give in to the Russians so they can get invaded again in 5 years.

How about we let the people fighting for their way of live decide when they should surrender.

- - - Updated - - -

This is the key point people don't get here.

Right now Ukraine is fighting on fumes and with personal weapons, some missiles and such. They can't even make use of what West could potentially supply, simply because they don't have training that takes time.

That's why the West is hunting for Soviet stuff to give away to Ukraine, because Western one will take a good year to train to use and probably more to use effectively for Ukrainian army.

Nobody in their right mind thinks that Ukraine-Russia agreement would usher some new era of Peace and Happiness that will last decades, it is pretty clear for all that it will likely be just a several years break before it all flares up again. But the key thing is that Ukraine needs that time, both to rearm and train to use Western equipment AND for sanctions to actually bite and restrict Russia.

It's really that simple.

... have you missed all the talk about western instructors teaching the Ukrainian army to use modern weapons and tactics for the last 8 years?

No, their pilots are not trained to fly F16s because they don't have any but they sure know how to use all the man portable weapons being shipped their way. We have the wrecks of a ton of Russian vehicles, aircraft and helicopters to make that point rather clear.

[CostinR]

I love that your sitting at home in comfort telling the Ukrainians they should give in to the Russians so they can get invaded again in 5 years.

How about we let the people fighting for their way of live decide when they should surrender.

You confuse a ceasefire with surrender, cute, must be comfortable for you in whatever country you are in.

Here's a reality check: Russia controls Crimea, controls large sections of Donbass, controls the Crimea canal.

They won't give any of those back and Ukraine cannot take them back through military force.

Anyone living in a country bordering Ukraine is hardly sitting in comfort. Or do you think that mass of millions of refugees is just some flick of our imagination? Our hospitals, schools, hotels and homes are crowded with Ukrainians who have lost virtually everything.

But let's continue hearing from the brigade of keyboard warriors thousands of miles away who say Ukraine should fight to the bitter end, see their entire country devasted and ruined and an enormous part of their population becoming refugees.

But hey let's not have a ceasefire, because that would mean Ukraine surrenders to neo-nazis. I am sure Mariupol is a great vacation spot right now, why don't you go there high and mighty warrior.