[Spoilers] Shattered legacies (new cinematic)

[Syegfryed]

Its seemingly just the case for those killed directly by Frostmourne, so the random Forsaken doesnt have a split soul.

it wasn't in wc3 that Arthas rly, didn't kill her and just turn her into a banshee directly

[Sondrelk]

it wasn't in wc3 that Arthas rly, didn't kill her and just turn her into a banshee directly

Well, the current lore is that Sylvanas was killed by Arthas directly, so the point still stands.

[Super Dickmann]

The inner conflict we see is exactly why I don't think this is really going to work. Remember, Uther doesnt say that "you" did it to Sylvanas, he says the "she" did it, which implies that the game is seemingly content making the good Sylvanas the "main" one remembering stuff the "evil" Sylvanas did, rather than the Sylvanas we know growing a conscience and being horrified.

This is what I said earlier in the thread regarding putting up or shutting up. The story says that she's still the same person and is responsible and it's framed with Uther bringing the two sides Sylvani together and the resultant Sylvanas recalls her thought process during things like breaking free from Arthas. However, the way it's shown, with Potato Sylvanas being the one who talks to Uther and the use of 'she' and 'her' muddles the thing. If the writing follows through on the resulting Sylvanas actually being a merger, then it's not a red herring, otherwise it's a massive excuse made worse by how agency is the whole point of the character.

[Sondrelk]

This is what I said earlier in the thread regarding putting up or shutting up. The story says that she's still the same person and is responsible and it's framed with Uther bringing the two sides Sylvani together and the resultant Sylvanas recalls her thought process during things like breaking free from Arthas. However, the way it's shown, with Potato Sylvanas being the one who talks to Uther and the use of 'she' and 'her' muddles the thing.

I guess we will have to see, though given that this is an officially released cinematic and not something datamined out of context I imagine this is the endgame Blizzard is going for.

[Super Dickmann]

I guess we will have to see, though given that this is an officially released cinematic and not something datamined out of context I imagine this is the endgame Blizzard is going for.

Usually I'd write it off, but given that apparently the whole thing about saving Anduin to learn how to resist the Bald Man's mind control ended up failing when Anduin doesn't know shit and the Primus solves it instead, and it's also now explicit that her earlier dialogue was talking about Arthas, you never know. Said scene is after the merger and there she speaks directly of her own experiences.

@LarryFromHumanResources

Uther got killed and that's it. Sylvanas was raised and then mind-controlled while fully aware and sent to sack her homeland. Both lost their homes and most people they knew to him, but Uther at least wasn't made a party to it and didn't have his soul fucked (at least until SL).

[Nerovar]

Foregoing later lore like Chronicle or SL itself, the text directly says Arthas is 'alone in his power and glory' after killing Ner'zhul and Blizzard in 2010 said outright that Ner'zhul is done and has served his purpose. It's all very literal.

I was talking about how it is depicted within the context of Rise of the Lich King. Sure, Ner'zhul didn't play any role after that but that's hardly relevant when it comes to analyzing the content of the book (otherwise you'd also have to consider the examples of later lore I alluded to). I'm just saying it's not as cut-and-dry as "Arthas destroyed Ner'zhul's soul in a metaphysical battle for control". I agree that it's strongly implied that Ner'zhul might be dead but there's a degree of ambiguity if you read the scene as an allegory for Arthas' mental struggle for control of the shared mind of the Lich King with him winning and the other influences being pushed into some corner where they can wallow in their own irrelevance.

[Sondrelk]

Wait how does Sylvanas' wound run deeper than Uther's?

Sylvanas didn't know Arthas, and wasn't betrayed by him in the same way that Uther was

This narrative doesn't make sense..

Presumably the contradicting personalities are creating a far worse effect on Sylvanas than it did on Uther.
Uther also seemingly doesnt consider his "horrible", or at least is capable of arguing them as being entirely out of his hands, so he just gets some new perspective on his actions, not his WC3 self being horrified at the things he did.

WC3 Uther suddenly "woke up" to being in the afterlife and having been tricked into being evil. WC3 Sylvanas "woke up" to being the worst possible dictator in the world, everyone hating her for being an infinitely worse version of the Lich King, and having allied herself with the person who wants to destroy the entire universe as well as turning several people into puppets.

[Akta]

Wait how does Sylvanas' wound run deeper than Uther's?

Sylvanas didn't know Arthas, and wasn't betrayed by him in the same way that Uther was

This narrative doesn't make sense..

Do you even know sylvanas lore ?

[Varodoc]

Can't believe I'm still seeing Sylvanas fanboys being mad at something.

Not only you as Horde/Forsaken players got redeemed because Anduin Christ decided to sign an armistice and forgive the Horde, but now Psycho Waifuvanas is also redeemed because it turns out she's Kerrigan's reincarnation so she never did anything wrong really, it was just her evil twin/doppelganger.

Is there any doubt that Blizzard is Horde-biased? Not really. Literally every single element of the Horde, from rebel to loyalist, got white-washed for committing actual genocide. Succeeding where ARCHIMONDE AND THE BURNING LEGION failed. But they all got redeemed.

And some people still have the sheer gall to complain

The only ones who have the right to complain here are Kaldorei fanboys honestly. Their race was utterly and completely sacrificed to write yet another redemption plot for Kerrigan and the Horde.

[Syegfryed]

Well, the current lore is that Sylvanas was killed by Arthas directly, so the point still stands.

just amazes me how this story that was ready since wc3 had to rely o heavy on retcons

and if not mistaken, sylvanus cut was in like 2 different places in this expansion alone.

[Fuiking]

Right??? They look like Disney characters, I hate it so much.

looks like a very early rendition of more detailed versions....

[Stickiler]

looks like a very early rendition of more detailed versions....

That's possible, though unlikely. They wanted this cinematic to come out before the quest testing coming up, so they might have released a lower quality version. Though I don't personally believe they did that.

[Super Dickmann]

I was talking about how it is depicted within the context of Rise of the Lich King. Sure, Ner'zhul didn't play any role after that but that's hardly relevant when it comes to analyzing the content of the book (otherwise you'd also have to consider the examples of later lore I alluded to). I'm just saying it's not as cut-and-dry as "Arthas destroyed Ner'zhul's soul in a metaphysical battle for control". I agree that it's strongly implied that Ner'zhul might be dead but there's a degree of ambiguity if you read the scene as an allegory for Arthas' mental struggle for control of the shared mind of the Lich King with him winning and the other influences being pushed into some corner where they can wallow in their own irrelevance.

If we forego the surrounding commentary at the time and Wrath itself and only take the book at its lonesome, then while it's possible to read it as Arthas mentally asserting himself over the shared mind that is the Lich King it has to be taken into account that the Lich King is also a merger of souls instead of just a consciousness. Arthas isn't facing Ner'zhul's thought patterns, but Ner'zhul himself, and that reflects on the only other person in the room. If it's Ner'zhul's literal soul being consumed, then the only other figure there that works the same way as Arthas and Ner'zhul do stands to reason is a soul as well.

If we do bring in the lore at the time, from dev statements regarding Ner'zhul being consumed or gone to Arthas killing him and the game itself where whether Matthias is an out of story element or not Arthas' heart is clearly somehow associated with his soul in that destroying it weakens him, it all points towards both the boy and the heart being either a part of his soul or tied to him like a phylactery. This is notwithstanding that unusually for WoW it's the same writer behind both, with Golden doing Rise of the Lich King and also almost certainly penning the current cinematic where the interaction between (pieces of) souls is also very literal.

[Artelia]

No matter what some of you say, not all people were loyalists because it's sexy dark undead. The reason I rooted for her on BFA was because I want to keep humans as race as far away from the lore of Horde and primarily lore of blood elves as possible. At this point , noting can stop the bad writing , where again I have to listen to what sad Jaina wants and what a few pro-alliance traitors disagree with. Every time a leader like Garrosh or just old Legion Sylvanas shows up, we end up as friends anyway and I have to do quests as blood elf , where I must to listen how sad Tyrande or Jaina is and what poor Anduin just ate. Really, that's not what I want to do in a quests. This new Sylvanas? It's another future wife of some human. As Vereesa or Alleria she is boring since start. She is practicaly new pro-peace character. They can take her and kill her now...and even old loyalists will doesn't care.

[Easo]

I would argue that not everyone has to have a redemption story (as much as we love those) and some villains simply have to stay villains/evil/dead.

Blizzard's storytelling truly is anything but subtle and unpredictable. Well, at least the cinematic itself was great, if a bit jarring due to different model styles used.

[Nerovar]

If we forego the surrounding commentary at the time and Wrath itself and only take the book at its lonesome, then while it's possible to read it as Arthas mentally asserting himself over the shared mind that is the Lich King it has to be taken into account that the Lich King is also a merger of souls instead of just a consciousness. Arthas isn't facing Ner'zhul's thought patterns, but Ner'zhul himself, and that reflects on the only other person in the room. If it's Ner'zhul's literal soul being consumed, then the only other figure there that works the same way as Arthas and Ner'zhul do stands to reason is a soul as well.

If we do bring in the lore at the time, from dev statements regarding Ner'zhul being consumed or gone to Arthas killing him and the game itself where whether Matthias is an out of story element or not Arthas' heart is clearly somehow associated with his soul in that destroying it weakens him, it all points towards both the boy and the heart being either a part of his soul or tied to him like a phylactery. This is notwithstanding that unusually for WoW it's the same writer behind both, with Golden doing Rise of the Lich King and also almost certainly penning the current cinematic where the interaction between (pieces of) souls is also very literal.

If we assume that Arthas is literally destroying Ner'zhul's soul then he is also literally destroying that piece of his own soul and in that case it wouldn't really make sense to have Matthias Lehner in the game at all, no? Furthermore, the whole Matthias Lehner bit is still very far removed from the self-contained soul clones we're seeing in Shadowlands so I'm not sure we can blame this on Golden yet.

[Raven]

Didn't see this cinematic discussed anywhere yet so here we go.



My thoughts:
- Why do these cinematics look a lot more 'cartoony'? The way Sylvanas uses her hands to talk just looks goofy.
- Why did they give her those bangs. It's 2021, those emo bangs haven't been cute since 2007. Her hair looks more like fleshy tendrils than actual hair as well.
- Also noticed they removed her mail 'underwear'. Honestly should've redesigned her entire lower half. Looks weird as hell now.
- The way she opened her eyes at the end looks exactly like Bella Swan at the beginning of the last twilight movie. Can't unsee it.
- Also surprise, surprise, she'll get a redemption arc. Who saw that coming..

You are joking right ? Did you really watch hole video and think redemption.

She actually used the words herself that all she did cant be forgiven.

[sighy]

The inner conflict we see is exactly why I don't think this is really going to work. Remember, Uther doesnt say that "you" did it to Sylvanas, he says the "she" did it, which implies that the game is seemingly content making the good Sylvanas the "main" one remembering stuff the "evil" Sylvanas did, rather than the Sylvanas we know growing a conscience and being horrified.

It could be interpreted as Uther trying to reach that side of her, because she is in utter denial that it could have been her doing it. At least i hope they're not going for the split personality evil twin nonsense. Definately could be copium lol.

[Super Dickmann]

If we assume that Arthas is literally destroying Ner'zhul's soul then he is also literally destroying that piece of his own soul and in that case it wouldn't really make sense to have Matthias Lehner in the game at all, no? Furthermore, the whole Matthias Lehner bit is still very far removed from the self-contained soul clones we're seeing in Shadowlands so I'm not sure we can blame this on Golden yet.

Whether Arthas destroyed the soul or absorbed it is moot to the point of whether Arthas, Ner'zhul and Matthias' interaction in the soulscape was literal, which is the point I'm getting at. I think the writing intent was very clearly to remove Ner'zhul to replace Arthas and all versions of the story push this point heavily, that one Howling Fjord quest aside. That Matthias shouldn't exist is a given, and I think it's an acknowledged oversight since the writer behind the quest only skimmed the book, but the concept of Arthas' good half represented by a child and existing as a literal separate aspect of his soul is present in both Rise and Wrath and the Wrath version is the closest to the SL incarnation of this plot bid and likely inspired it.

The whole Matthias Lehner bit is the direct forebear of Shadowlands' take on split souls. From 'good halves' that are cut out with runeblades, to the resulting object crystallizing and to it being able to weaken the user. That it's the same writer behind both scenes where characters or parts of characters' souls interact in their own minds further pushes it.

[Kralljin]

Furthermore, the whole Matthias Lehner bit is still very far removed from the self-contained soul clones we're seeing in Shadowlands so I'm not sure we can blame this on Golden yet.

I'd completely ignore Matthias Lehner, this entire thing is another instance of "oops, people didn't talk to each other"

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Matthias_Lehner

Sean Copeland implied that Matthias' appearance in the game may have been only for gameplay reasons.

The boy from Arthas: Rise of the Lich King was not written as Matthias Lehner. Rather, a quest designer made a character based on the boy without Christie Golden's knowledge that was very likely intended to be the same character. This explains the disconnect in the character's "death" and reappearance.

Honestly, in hindsight i would just say that Matthias Lehner is a creation of Yogg-saron, considering the quests end with removing any doubts about Arthas being redeemable and the Lich King getting weakened, which naturally benefitted Yogg-saron as there was supposed to be a direct connection between the LK and Yogg, which didn't make it into the game because the devs forgot to actually put it in the game.