Hard core raiders don't like the answer: but Blizzard is right about Power Infusion.

[Mentacyde]

Why isn't there an overall attempts survivability n damage taken factored into damage done? Of course modified for whichever fight as some things are unavoidable. Well for those worried about parsing

Idk

Are we playing wow or warcraftlogs?

[epigramx]

My balance druid mythic parse average is sitting at 98.9 and I rarely get PIs. I think people overestimate the effect of PI and try to find excuses for their performance. This is not a big deal.

It can can ludicrous if it happens multiple times. E.g. some parses have like 4 PIs + other externals on the same character in 1 fight. But it's still fine if people can use the site because those are clearly marked next to rank listing and even if it didn't you can find all kinds of details in the log.

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Thats not what strawman means lol...

It is. You said I come personally from a perspective of guilds that care. I said I come from a perspective of a guild that doesn't take it seriously (but the whole truth is I've been in both hard core and casual guilds so I don't even come from one type of guild in terms of my experience).

[Argorwal]

Are we playing wow or warcraftlogs?

Sadly for some people, and especially in classic, the game is about Warcraftlogs first and WoW a very distant second.

It’s about beating others in a PvE game.

Parse PvP.

[epigramx]

In absolutely no way is that a strawman argument

As I just said: I was referring to being called someone that comes from a perspective of a guild who care about PI. I said I don't so that's a misrepresentation. The whole truth is I've seen all kinds of guilds so I can see both sides (with the exception of I've never seen a top 10 tier guild from the inside but almost nobody has).

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The real issue isn't PI, it's parsing.

WCL has the least responsibility here. It already marks people who used externals right on the ranking listing and even if it didn't: you can't already delve into the details yourself anyway.

It's embarrassing to some but this is mainly a "I want to look better to people who can't use WCL" issue.

[epigramx]

Why isn't there an overall attempts survivability n damage taken factored into damage done? Of course modified for whichever fight as some things are unavoidable. Well for those worried about parsing

Idk

Are we playing wow or warcraftlogs?

I suspect the WCL coder can't handle it but with a good excuse, it's probably extremely subjective how you're going to subtract points from such activities.

Besides: you can already delve into the details and find out who was better; this is a players can't use WCL issue; WCL has the least responsibility.

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Sadly for some people, and especially in classic, the game is about Warcraftlogs first and WoW a very distant second.

It’s about beating others in a PvE game.

Parse PvP.

Come on; that's an exaggeration. Most people mainly care about the progress ranking. Even those that whine about the logs issues would obviously prefer a higher progress ranking than a better log (or at least a much higher progress ranking if they are sane).

[arkanon]

The amount of headcanon in this thread from OP is amazing.

"It's totally this thing I'm saying - I have offered literally NOTHING to support my claim, but anyone who claims otherwise is wrong".

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Fun is subjective. Not everyone thinks raiding is only a dps meter. Some people use raiding as a playground of improving their social skills in a team and not being annoyed that someone got an external instead of you is part of improving that skill.

Damage meters were never brought up. So I take it this is just to be a contrarian. Also, if it is that subjective then I suppose your points are as subjective as mine thus no one has a point. Well said.

[epigramx]

Damage meters were never brought up. So I take it this is just to be a contrarian. Also, if it is that subjective then I suppose your points are as subjective as mine thus no one has a point. Well said.

What do you mean meters were not brought up; it was obviously implicit; you are talking about a buff that increases dps or hps in those logs and that's the only thing that matters to the people who complain.

Of course it's subjective for everyone. That means neither of us has a "conclusive truth" about it; but I have a suggestion: maybe having guild mates also means you should not be hostile against them.

[Drusin]

PI is not even a concern in real top-level play, as the math has already been done on who will benefit from it the most, as that's what benefits the group the most.

PI drama is mostly a mid-tier/lower-tier concern, where everyone thinks they're gods gift to DPS & that they should get it over the other person because they're amazing.

Yep, the real argument would come if PI isn't min/maxed lol

[Revamp Man]

If you play with other humans: the social tension of "who gets PI" is something you should manage. Or put it another way: if you're such a hard core player and so good: learn to be good at managing social tension too.

But we needed the ilvl lock because the social pressure of saying “no” when asked to trade loot was too much to handle….according to the devs

[Gaidax]

Right... social tension is good. That is why they removed master loot eh?
Thing is, priests deserve to use their own cooldown.
Nah, they just contradict themselves and you fall like a ducky for everything they say.

For the record, i am someone who often gets PI cause i tend to use 2m CD specs. I still think it's something that should go away, cause it's not something the whole raid can share on. There are clearly better recipients.
If they want a "help the raid" spell, make one that actually helps everyone in the raid, not just one person. Otherwise you might just give PI baseline for the specs that benefit the most. It's dumb.

But hey... it's blizzard. They lost the plot a long time ago. Just another case of the fans having to fight the devs for something that should not be a debate.
No one likes it. Recipients don't like having to need it, priests don't like losing their CD, those that don't get it don't like missing out. But hey... the devs are ok with it. Usual arrogance we came to expect.
This distorting of the original devs of making a game for themselves is still giving rotten fruit. Original devs were in touch with the player base. Current devs are not. That is why making a game for themselves is giving this kind of result. Stop making a game for devs and make a game for the players. You'll find it will work better for you too.

Of all this shit thread, where there is a bunch of people who have no clue argue about things that are out of their league - the quoted is pretty much where the thread ends IMO.

It's spot on. It's simply down to this being completely unnecessary annoyance for all the parties involved.

[epigramx]

But we needed the ilvl lock because the social pressure of saying “no” when asked to trade loot was too much to handle….according to the devs

Apples and oranges. They also cater to pugs there. Pugs do not care about PI so it's a non-issue there.

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thread ends

It's spot on.

It's nonsense. it compares apples and oranges. Ninja looter was destroying pugs left and right (including guilds who invite pugs); nobody cares about PI in pugs; you want something removed because either you can't be friends with your own guild or because you rely on people who can't use WCL and how it shows externals next to rankings to show off skill.

[dzd]

If anyone in this thread ever wondered why they don't want to communicate with us, just look at the mirror.

They made perfectly fine argument why they think it's good for the game and you guys are just starting childish debate with nonsense arguments. No one wants to waste their time reading this garbage.

[Gaidax]

If anyone in this thread ever wondered why they don't want to communicate with us, just look at the mirror.

They made perfectly fine argument why they think it's good for the game and you guys are just starting childish debate with nonsense arguments. No one wants to waste their time reading this garbage.

There is a difference in response to people who actually design the game and to people who just come to spread BS they have no clue about and does not even concern them, like OP, who is clearly nowhere near "hardcore raiders".

It's like if I'd go ahead and talk about nuclear power plants, where all my knowledge is a mix of Google, Chernobyl-based games and whatever head canon I build from mixing it.

---

As for the developer, the answer was given pretty much with a first reply to the blue post. It's all nice and dandy for progress, but when progress ends and a half-year long farm begins - that's where the issue lies. At that point developer-produced content is long cleared and over, the only thing that remains to keep interest in raids is ranking and that's important consideration.

Goals made and managed by players very often become goals adopted by the very same Blizzard devs, whether it's recent incorporation of RIO or simply raid spec balancing or encounters vs addons arms race. There is no escaping that, community is a driving force behind many key aspects of WoW and so it happens that WCL is indeed a key accepted part of WoW nowadays as far as raiding is concerned, just as RIO is.

After all guild recruitment is relying on WCL a lot, for one.

---

Finally, Blizzard need to answer the question whether the whole addition is worth the "social tension" it produces. One of the bigger blunders of Shadowlands is that they far too often said "yes" and even fought tooth and nail for it, only to have the whole Sand Castle they built crash on top of their heads.

They need to re-evaluate their approach with these annoyances. So far it did not pay.

[Revamp Man]

If anyone in this thread ever wondered why they don't want to communicate with us, just look at the mirror.

They made perfectly fine argument why they think it's good for the game and you guys are just starting childish debate with nonsense arguments. No one wants to waste their time reading this garbage.

Just look at the last 4 years
Everything the devs make that gets called out for being shit ends up being changed because they are too stubborn to change it before they screw up peoples experience en mass

[Gaidax]

Just look at the last 4 years
Everything the devs make that gets called out for being shit ends up being changed because they are too stubborn to change it before they screw up peoples experience en mass

Basically this.

That's why I liked the response by Swnem: "But hey... it's blizzard. They lost the plot a long time ago. Just another case of the fans having to fight the devs for something that should not be a debate.
No one likes it. Recipients don't like having to need it, priests don't like losing their CD, those that don't get it don't like missing out. But hey... the devs are ok with it. Usual arrogance we came to expect."

It seems to me just yet another of these cases, Blizzard adds something that brings very little value, but great deal of annoyance. Then they stubbornly hold their ground for very shaky reasons of not wanting to constrain themselves or that being their vision of how players should like their game. Which awfully lot sounds like "self-pleasing" rather than actually trying to make things better for players.

And then they wonder why players say devs are out of touch with playerbase.

And finally the great cave in comes where they are in "give them fucking everything mode" for some time... only to end up repeating the same cycle next time. Except they did it one time too many as of late and patience is running thin, even aside from the current unrelated crisis.

[spalernTJ]

well technically you can probably use your voice to manage that.. like someone should tell you to give them PI or something

Sure, that's fine and all, but I don't care much for voice when doing mid / low keys with randoms, or pugging raids, plus it feels good just knowing when to use my kit at the right times without needing others to call for it.

[Gaidax]

well technically you can probably use your voice to manage that.. like someone should tell you to give them PI or something

We use a whisper macro that triggers WA.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

What do you mean meters were not brought up; it was obviously implicit; you are talking about a buff that increases dps or hps in those logs and that's the only thing that matters to the people who complain.

Of course it's subjective for everyone. That means neither of us has a "conclusive truth" about it; but I have a suggestion: maybe having guild mates also means you should not be hostile against them.

I give my PI to the best target every time because its the best idea? Even they laugh and say sorry that I have to give up my CD to them and its an inside joke. It isn't hostel at all. It is a meme even to those I give it to. Some of which are my best in game friends. They know I dont think its insanely fun. They know its not insanely fun for them to use it in that fashion either. We do it to kill bosses and that's why we do it. No one is really upset about it. Thinking something isn't that fun isn't a death sentence, example in point: Shadowlands.

So what are you going on about?

So explain to me my hostility again? Or is that just the frame work you need to design to have a point at all? Because I think its pretty easy to not think something is fun, still do it because its the right thing, and it not being shameful for just wishing it was different. I certainly do not attack people on the internet over it. Some people sink that low.

[LTN]

Has there been a time raiders said something is a problem and turned out to be wrong about it?

After covenants I kinda want examples now.