Should roguelike gameplay become a fourth "solo pillar" of the endgame?

[Miffinat0r]

M+ has basically just fostered the "Zerg" mentality which again--is something that harms casual players.

The whole Key system is a terrible system. It's quite bad.

[Schizoide]

Mythic+ isn't for casual players. It's an endgame progression system for dedicated competitive players who either have smaller time windows available or don't want to progress through raids. The key system is fine for this.

Not every system in the game is for you. I find pet battles boring, but I'm not pushing for them to be removed from the game because some people do love them. Just not my thing.

[Arcreid]

Tower knowledge and ven’ari powers help here and there but eventually you get to a level where an elite decks you in the face for your entire health pool because your gear simply wasn’t good enough

People have cleared Torghast with no gears and here you are, still getting oneshotted by a Torghast mobs.

I hate Ion but his quote of "it's a skill issue" is undeniably true.

[b1gh3x]

Torghast was my most anticipated part of SL.

I thought, finally, solo content with its own gear progression.

Much dissapointment.

[Miffinat0r]

People have cleared Torghast with no gears and here you are, still getting oneshotted by a Torghast mobs.

I hate Ion but his quote of "it's a skill issue" is undeniably true.

Back before TC was released it wasn't a "skill issue" Ion knew it, he just wanted to say that because shocker--Ion is a jerk, an elitist jerk.

I watched my dude do an interview about Torg and talked about it's solo capabilities and when they launched the first 8 levels, mind you the entire time Ion said TC was the challenge mode, certain classes could not even touch floor 6-8 because of a severe lack of healing. Remember when this first launched how easy it was for healers, and Pallys? Oh dear lord I remember watching Pallies just wreck house. Then the Frost Mage tried to do the same and got owned instantly.

Anytime a dev says it's a "skill issue" do youself a favor; Unsub, and tell your gaming friends of how terrible their customer service/product is. That's what I've been doing and I'm proud to say I blocked 6 WoW purchases.

Ion will say it's a "skill issue" well that could be true, but I can sell things, and well honestly preventing others from playing WoW in my older age really puts a smile on my face.

[Candlewick]

Back before TC was released it wasn't a "skill issue" Ion knew it, he just wanted to say that because shocker--Ion is a jerk, an elitist jerk.

I watched my dude do an interview about Torg and talked about it's solo capabilities and when they launched the first 8 levels, mind you the entire time Ion said TC was the challenge mode, certain classes could not even touch floor 6-8 because of a severe lack of healing. Remember when this first launched how easy it was for healers, and Pallys? Oh dear lord I remember watching Pallies just wreck house. Then the Frost Mage tried to do the same and got owned instantly.

Anytime a dev says it's a "skill issue" do youself a favor; Unsub, and tell your gaming friends of how terrible their customer service/product is. That's what I've been doing and I'm proud to say I blocked 6 WoW purchases.

Ion will say it's a "skill issue" well that could be true, but I can sell things, and well honestly preventing others from playing WoW in my older age really puts a smile on my face.

It was a skill issue though. The only class that really struggled was rogues.

[Soon-TM]

It was a skill issue though. The only class that really struggled was rogues.

But that's the same attitude that permeates all of SL (and BfA as well, albeit at a much lesser degree); telling a sizeable amount of your customers that they suck isn't a sound marketing move, even if it's true - especially if it's true.

[Candlewick]

But that's the same attitude that permeates all of SL (and BfA as well, albeit at a much lesser degree); telling a sizeable amount of your customers that they suck isn't a sound marketing move, even if it's true - especially if it's true.

I mean what exactly do you want? Every time people talk about new content it boils them down to wanting BiS gear for murdering mobs they can one shot then screaming when any form of challenge confronts them. Of course I'm dismissive of idiots who want to destroy the entire game because their ego can't take someone have better things then them in a fantasy game.

[Unholyground]

I think they should make the game not suck and drop the sub fee personally, everything will fall in place when greed isn't their motivating factor.

[Miffinat0r]

I mean what exactly do you want? Every time people talk about new content it boils them down to wanting BiS gear for murdering mobs they can one shot then screaming when any form of challenge confronts them. Of course I'm dismissive of idiots who want to destroy the entire game because their ego can't take someone have better things then them in a fantasy game.

Never once in the history of games have people quit over games becoming easier.

Guess what players revolted when GC made the game harder. He even tweeted about it.

There's 100% a fallacy that players want hard content. Actually, people want relaxing fun content. What you're advocating for is just another extension of inequality that exists in real life but only in the virtual world.

[Candlewick]

Never once in the history of games have people quit over games becoming easier.

Guess what players revolted when GC made the game harder. He even tweeted about it.

There's 100% a fallacy that players want hard content. Actually, people want relaxing fun content. What you're advocating for is just another extension of inequality that exists in real life but only in the virtual world.

Hots or lol?
Overwatch or counter strike?
S2 or total war warhammer ?
Simplicity sells if you are the most welcoming. Blizzard cant compete with Facebook in that realm.

[Hctaz]

I'd prefer them spend time on other things rather than waste it on pointless player housing that people would most likely avoid unless that player is one of the people that would sit around in the house doing nothing instead of doing quests, keys, raids, pvp, tmog runs, pet battles, pvp, etc.

Quests, keys, raids, pvp, tmog runs, pet battles, and pvp would literally all give unique rewards for your house though like???? You have to play the damn game to make your house look nicer. The point is that the Garrison didn't need to be functional to fulfill the role that people wanted for it. It wasn't about a gold sink, it was about being able to show off your accomplishments and create something that you were proud of. Maybe you're a fan of the Death Knight architecture, and you want to design a specific building with various rooms showing off your creative skill as well as your accomplishments. Maybe you get a trophy for being glad ranked or something special.

[MoanaLisa]

Look at the progression thing coming in Zereth Mortis. Lots of people have already dismissed it as "dead in the water" or even "not content" because it won't give player power in high level content like keys and raiding.

Yeah, but that's not the bulk of the players by any stretch and people continuing to associate "loud" with "majority" are wrong.

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I think they should make the game not suck and drop the sub fee personally, everything will fall in place when greed isn't their motivating factor.

Try and be helpful for anyone reading: What does "not suck" look like specifically? What needs to be changed and what sort of thing needs to replace it? Genuinely curious to know what needs to happen from those that make these vague, pointless criticisms.

[Soon-TM]

Quests, keys, raids, pvp, tmog runs, pet battles, and pvp would literally all give unique rewards for your house though like???? You have to play the damn game to make your house look nicer. The point is that the Garrison didn't need to be functional to fulfill the role that people wanted for it. It wasn't about a gold sink, it was about being able to show off your accomplishments and create something that you were proud of. Maybe you're a fan of the Death Knight architecture, and you want to design a specific building with various rooms showing off your creative skill as well as your accomplishments. Maybe you get a trophy for being glad ranked or something special.

The lack of creativity of those who defend the statu quo is frankly astonishing. I guess that's why they defend it, in the first place... Those people would probably get angry even at things like xmog:

"WoW is a MMO, not Barbie's doll house!"

"B-b-b-but muh tier exclusivity! Even the filthiest casual will be able to look cool!"

And the all time classic:

"It would cost us a raid tier!"

[Boricha]

I personally am not a fan of Torghast or most rogue-like games. I find those types of games very mundane. I'd like to see something that is like a cross between mage tower fights and MoP scenarios. 6-10 minutes, 1-3 players, very story-driven side stories, revolving around a single mechanically difficult boss fight or gauntlet. I think that would be very fun for me and a chance for Blizz to add a lot more lore to the game without needing to connect it directly to the main story.

But honestly, WoW doesn't need another 'pillar' of obtaining high level gear. It needs more solo/side content that is just fun and creates a personal connection for players (like FF14). Things like player housing, arcade/mini-game style activities like puzzles and competitions, a wider variety of transmogs (shoes with heels, 3D jackets, scarves, jewelry, knee length skirts, dyes, etc...), interesting professions that are actually worth spending time on and can create novelty items.

[Soon-TM]

Every time people talk about new content it boils them down to wanting BiS gear for murdering mobs they can one shot then screaming when any form of challenge confronts them.

Sorry, but the BiS-obsessed crowd is mutually exclusive with the WQ/open world one. Conflating them, or even worse, pointing fingers at the "noob who wants BiS in the mail" quixotic windmill doesn't help your case either.

[Candlewick]

Sorry, but the BiS-obsessed crowd is mutually exclusive with the WQ/open world one. Conflating them, or even worse, pointing fingers at the "noob who wants BiS in the mail" quixotic windmill doesn't help your case either.

It is mostly just looking at how the results play out. Do you recall all the excitement for visions awarding higher then heroic gear was before players saw what visions actually where ?

I would enjoy hard solo content in wow... I just think It looks like the mage tower in terms of design and rewards.

[paxen]

I would enjoy hard solo content in wow... I just think It looks like the mage tower in terms of design and rewards.

The main problem with mage tower is that it doesn't scale, at all. You can either do it or you can't (and many can't). PVP, raids and m+ all scale to various degrees. You can find the level you're at, and then work to improve.

"Working to improve" in the mage tower means beating your head into a wall until it breaks, and then there's no more content.

[wargone]

I honestly hope so, torgcast is the most fun i had in SL.

[Unholyground]

Yeah, but that's not the bulk of the players by any stretch and people continuing to associate "loud" with "majority" are wrong.

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Try and be helpful for anyone reading: What does "not suck" look like specifically? What needs to be changed and what sort of thing needs to replace it? Genuinely curious to know what needs to happen from those that make these vague, pointless criticisms.

First off WoW is far too expensive if you are not already entrenched in the token and AH systems (hopefully they remove the token since it is part of the reason the game is so bad in recent years), especially now with inflation it is even more in some regions and one of the reasons I quit last year on top of the whole rapey Blizzard stuff. From a gameplay standpoint it has moments of brilliance but it is always overshadowed by their systems upon systems that try to create a feeling of progress by giving you back abilities you have had already that they keep taking away and reintroducing an expansion or two later. That doesn't even start to describe how terrible their gearing methods have been. Also they always stick to their guns in the face of the truth from the community that they have no idea what they are doing from a development and game design standpoint.