I tell you why WoW and MMORPGs are struggling in this day and age...

[rrayy]

The amount of wish list stuff added in 9.1.5 pretty much confirms the player numbers are low af

Blizzard has done this for the past several expansions later on in it's cycle after everyone has gone through it as originally released once. Correlation does not causation and it proves nothing.

[Aresk]

-online communication is no longer a novelty
-you only see another player as a mean to your ends
-communication with another player is considered meaningless if not rewarded

We live in the age of "profit" where everything is meaningless unless you can profit from it. Even people.

Edit: Just to clarify

Conquering and winning is always fun.
We earn the girlfriend, we win at our job, we conquer arena rating, we win gear etc

But what i mean is that nowadays we may have lost touch with other players and the simple joy of communicating with them and just having "stupid fun".

I would argue online communication was not a novelty when WoW was released. I spent hours chatting in channels in Starcraft and Diablo 2, and during WC3, I was very active on community sites (not unlike this one). The fact we're having this discourse is evidence that the community is enjoying communication, be it in or out of game.

In terms of your second point, I agree that some people behave that way, but most people I know do not. People willingly help out guild or community members even when there's nothing material in it for them. It can be fun to just play with other people and share in their joy when they accomplish their goals.

As for communication being meaningless if not rewarded, I can blatantly say that is false. Even when communication is to the detriment of current activities (e.g. off-topic chatter during a Mythic+ run or raid fight), people still engage in it. I'm a guide in the Newcomer chat, and it's a lot of fun to talk with people about their experiences, help people better understand the game, or learn from other guides. You could argue learning and fun are rewards, but at that point, everything in life comes with a reward (cleaning a house rewards you with sanitary living conditions and satisfaction in completing a task; paying taxes rewards with you peace of mind from a legal standpoint; eating lunch rewards you with nutrients to continue your day).

I think ultimately our difference in viewpoints here comes down to your second to last statement. A girlfriend isn't something earned; she's a person you establish a good relationship with, and the term used is to describe that relationship you mutually foster. No job I've had is one that one "wins at," as it's not a competition; one succeeds at their work, but the concept of winning doesn't really apply. I think when talking about actual game topics, such as arena rating and gear, the words are much more apt.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

There is absolutely no way they could predict this large an influx of players TWO YEARS AGO. It's delusional to insist otherwise, and the idea that they would also have the psychics on staff to predict the chip shortage is crazy. Maybe they also could have warned us covid was coming with this magic powers you insist they should have.

again Id think if your going for a huge end of story expan you'd expect a huge boost, no need to predict a chip shortage just that the end of your story will be big and alot of new people will want to see it.

There isn't even a queue right now in FF. You are acting like there are 6 hour queues all the time.

No that's all you I didn't bring up weeks of que's or the que's being huge or any thing of the sort.

[NineSpine]

again Id think if your going for a huge end of story expan you'd expect a huge boost, no need to predict a chip shortage just that the end of your story will be big.

No that's all you I didn't bring up weeks of que's or the que's being huge or any thing of the sort.

I'm sure they did expect a boost, but there was no way to predict this massive influx. It's a complete unique event for a game running this long to suddenly see a player influx of this magnitude. It has no precedent.

If they couldn't predict the chip shortage, how could they have known two years ago that they wouldn't be able to buy new servers?

[Selah]

in your post to Moana you asked how much money they were losing so I provided the info.

Reality is, neither of us know how much profit is being lost through all this. How many people who have unsubbed or go to greener pastures as it were. That was the point of the statement. The game is profitable, but that's about it.

Shadowlands? nan I've have pretty much nothing good to say about it other then then I think some of the classes are fun and alot bad to say about it.

We agree on that point. That's what I think needs to be brought to the forefronts of these discussions. Because, the idea of the game being profitable really means nothing as to the quality and health of the game.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I'm sure they did expect a boost, but there was no way to predict this massive influx. It's a complete unique event for a game running this long to suddenly see a player influx of this magnitude. It has no precedent.

If they couldn't predict the chip shortage, how could they have known two years ago that they wouldn't be able to buy new servers?

Just looking at wow could tell them that there number's could more then double with a big expan launch like it did with legion.

and again it could just be me but I prefer to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it so Id never wait to buy new servers post launch id make sure I had more then enough way before launch.

[NineSpine]

Just looking at wow could tell them that there number's could more then double with a big expan launch like it did with legion.

and again it could just be me but I prefer to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it so Id never wait to buy new servers post launch.

They've been trying to buy new servers for months. This isn't sudden.

They didn't get a "new expansion" influx. They get a completely unique, unprecedented influx that is multiple times what would possibly be expected two years ago when the last expansion launched.

[Relapses]

The fact that Blizzard is seemingly incapable at accomplishing what numerous other games have already done, including WoW in the past, is not an excuse. You are just telling me that they are incompetent. That's not a good reason for poor design.

The current design is not going to shift away drastically from what it is now. You and I both know that. Hell, there's barely any proof that such a shift would be "good design" because ~gasp~ it turns out the people playing the game in 2021 have different interests than you did when you played the game in 2010. Also, I'm not discounting "other games do it," or trying to take away from your idealized WotLK experience, I'm saying that it's more likely they iterate on something like the Cypher system than they are to just say, "well fuck it, WotLK it is I guess." (And on that note, WotLK Classic will be coming out around the same time as 10.0 anyway.)

[Selah]

You don't have an argument as projecting ones opinion as fact is not an argument. I already gave reasons why it is fine. All you have said is 'The game is dying because I say so and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong". I also have not denigrated you as I have not called you any names. You insulted me with the "copium" BS. Since you are not actually interested in a debate and merely want to drown anyone who disagrees with you out. We are done.

Well, you're welcome engage with the arguments instead of just lashing out at me, or even point to where I said the game is dying.

Since the meme seems to have upset you so terribly deeply I will change my wording just for you. You seem to be suffering from denial, a stage of grief.

[NineSpine]

The current design is not going to shift away drastically from what it is now. You and I both know that. Hell, there's barely any proof that such a shift would be "good design" because ~gasp~ it turns out the people playing the game in 2021 have different interests than you did when you played the game in 2010. Also, I'm not discounting "other games do it," or trying to take away from your idealized WotLK experience, I'm saying that it's more likely they iterate on something like the Cypher system than they are to just say, "well fuck it, WotLK it is I guess." (And on that note, WotLK Classic will be coming out around the same time as 10.0 anyway.)

90% of the problem could be solved with "Here is a weekly capped currency that lets you upgrade gear ilvl, and you can get that currency from any content". This isn't as complicated as you are making it out to be. This is not a "drastic" change in anything but attitude and mindset. The infrastructure to make it happen already exists. In terms of the game, this is quite simple.

It would be inarguably good design compared to the current situation. It would offer more options to more players to play the game the way they want to. That's good design.

[Relapses]

Well, you're welcome engage with the arguments instead of just lashing out at me, or even point to where I said the game is dying.

...this you?

...the crew and passangers and jumping ship and there are multiple fires raging across the ship

- - - Updated - - -

90% of the problem could be solved with "Here is a weekly capped currency that lets you upgrade gear ilvl, and you can get that currency from any content". This isn't as complicated as you are making it out to be. This is not a "drastic" change in anything but attitude and mindset. The infrastructure to make it happen already exists. In terms of the game, this is quite simple.

It would be inarguably good design compared to the current situation. It would offer more options to more players to play the game the way they want to. That's good design.

Even Wrath didn't have a universal currency. There were multiple types of badges that did multiple things. It was incredibly confusing for new players which is, I'd wager, one of the main reasons they haven't done something like that again. That said, they are toying with the idea of a currency coming from all types of content in 9.2 as well. Right now the biggest selling point is that M+ players will be able to get a Tier set without raiding but there's no reason they can't expand that to world content in future iterations.

[NineSpine]

Even Wrath didn't have a universal currency. There were multiple types of badges that did multiple things. It was incredibly confusing for new players which is, I'd wager, one of the main reasons they haven't done something like that again. That said, they are toying with the idea of a currency coming from all types of content in 9.2 as well. Right now the biggest selling point is that M+ players will be able to get a Tier set without raiding but there's no reason they can't expand that to world content in future iterations.

Again, if you are telling me that they can't say "Heres a currency, it upgrades gear" without causing mass confusion, you are just telling me they are incomprehensibly incompetent.

[Relapses]

Again, if you are telling me that they can't say "Heres a currency, it upgrades gear" without causing mass confusion, you are just telling me they are incomprehensibly incompetent.

Gear upgrading already exists for M+ and world content. (Korthia gear can be upgraded to around ~normal raid item level; I'd imagine this will be a similar function of the Cypher system.) I'd be with you on one currency to rule them all if it didn't have the extremely negative side effect of making people who don't like certain content from feeling obligated to do that content to maximize efficiency/acquisition of the currency.

[NineSpine]

Gear upgrading already exists for M+ and world content. (Korthia gear can be upgraded to around ~normal raid item level; I'd imagine this will be a similar function of the Cypher system.) I'd be with you on one currency to rule them all if it didn't have the extremely negative side effect of making people who don't like certain content from feeling obligated to do that content to maximize efficiency/acquisition of the currency.

If the currency is weekly capped and rewarded in spades by challenging content, you negate the obligation entirely. Wow, that was a tough problem to solve. I had to put together focus groups and hire a pollster. It was daunting.

Again, this is not as complicated as you are making it out to be, and it sounds like you are acting like it is so complicated because you don't want to admit how incompetent the devs are for not doing this in the first place, especially when he framework was already set for it a decade ago.

[Gorsameth]

Is it working out really well for WoW to make hardcore gameplay the devs focus when the vast majority of players never engage in it?

Yeah because Vanilla/TBC/WotLK/ect added so much casual content.

WoW had been raids and basically nothing else as end game content since the start.
I would argue 'modern' WoW is the least hardcore/raid focused the game has ever been.

[Relapses]

If the currency is weekly capped and rewarded in spades by challenging content, you negate the obligation entirely. Wow, that was a tough problem to solve. I had to put together focus groups and hire a pollster. It was daunting.

Again, this is not as complicated as you are making it out to be, and it sounds like you are acting like it is so complicated because you don't want to admit how incompetent the devs are for not doing this in the first place, especially when he framework was already set for it a decade ago.

I mean, I'm mostly pointing out that a lot of the stuff you're saying they need to add is already in the game. Since you don't play the game, I don't blame you for not knowing these things. The main thing I'm getting at though, is that the reason for the different "complicated" types of currencies is because Blizzard wants players to be rewarded for the different types of content each individual player engages with. If a player does mostly world content -- they get gear that's good in world content; if they mostly PvP -- they get gear that's good for PvP; so on and so forth.

For the record, I do agree that design simplicity should be something that Blizzard focuses on but I also think that WoW's enormous appeal and diametrically apposed needs from different parts of the same playerbase are what drive the developers to contrive complicated solutions to easy problems.

[Selah]

...this you?

And where is the statement that the game is dying? I can make an observation about the state of the game without saying it's dying. If you took that statement as "all is lost and the game can't be turned around" then I don't what to tell you because I clearly didn't say that.

[Relapses]

And where is the statement that the game is dying? I can make an observation about the state of the game without saying it's dying. If you took that statement as "all is lost and the game can't be turned around" then I don't what to tell you because I clearly didn't say that.

Lol -- yeah sure, you didn't say the game was dying you just literally described people "jumping ship" because it was "on fire," all the while accusing anybody who isn't leaving of being deluded by copium. But now that you've moved the goal post from "game's dying" to "game's dying but I didn't say it couldn't be turned around," I guess you get to pretend like you're being open-minded.

Cute.

[MoanaLisa]

Reality is, neither of us know how much profit is being lost through all this. How many people who have unsubbed or go to greener pastures as it were. That was the point of the statement. The game is profitable, but that's about it.

The business isn't game by game in any case. I find it remarkable that they can still put up revenue numbers like this from 2021/Q3 given they haven't released anything but expansions and retreads for some years. Nonetheless this is from their earnings report. If you don't want to believe it there's nothing I can say that will help that but Blizzard is doing fine. This is revenue for 3 months for just the Blizzard Business Unit:

Blizzard Entertainment (PC Games): Driven by Diablo II: Resurrected, this Activision Blizzard segment reported profits of $493M. The figure surpasses over 20% year-over-year from Q3 2020 reports.

I'm glad that Diablo: Resurrected has done well but you would have to be foolish not to think that a substantial piece of that nearly half-a-billion dollars revenue for Q3 came from World of Warcraft. Note that this includes a couple of months in which the lawsuits, etc. were in full flower.

Quoted from: https://esports.gg/news/call-of-duty...d-game-delays/

[Selah]

Lol -- yeah sure, you didn't say the game was dying you just literally described people "jumping ship" because it was "on fire," all the while accusing anybody who isn't leaving of being deluded by copium. But now that you've moved the goal post from "game's dying" to "game's dying but I didn't say it couldn't be turned around," I guess you get to pretend like you're being open-minded.

Cute.

So... you're going to put words in my mouth and then get mad at the words you're putting in my mouth? Buddy that's such a hard way to live life. I can't help but feel bad for you.

But, for your understanding I'll elaborate further in hopes you'll understand. You can put out fires, you can seal a hull, people can get back on the ship. None of this is irreversible.

The copium statement was specifically made for folks who aren't willing to honestly address the state of the game. I have not said anything about people being on copium who haven't left. You're just making things up now.

- - - Updated - - -

The business isn't game by game in any case. I find it remarkable that they can still put up revenue numbers like this from 2021/Q3 given they haven't released anything but expansions and retreads for some years. Nonetheless this is from their earnings report. If you don't want to believe it there's nothing I can say that will help that but Blizzard is doing fine. This is revenue for 3 months for just the Blizzard Business Unit:

I'm glad that Diablo: Resurrected has done well but you would have to be foolish not to think that a substantial piece of that nearly half-a-billion dollars revenue for Q3 came from World of Warcraft. Note that this includes a couple of months in which the lawsuits, etc. were in full flower.

Quoted from: https://esports.gg/news/call-of-duty...d-game-delays/

We were only talking WoW, not Blizzard. The thread is literally titled "WoW and other MMORPGs". I've already multiple times stated that WoW is profitable. The point I'm making though is that profit does not equal health or quality of the game. It can be an indication, sure, but it's not the only indicator and a game can be profitable and not of good health or quality.