M+ Needs a Queue

[Tojara]

Yeah, there will probably more pugs for about two weeks.

Quick question though: what do you think the completion rate of these additional pugs will be?

No idea, but there is always a time variant. From my vantage point pugs/group leaders have every right to discriminate as much as possible when picking keys (much to the dismay of people screaming about "muh meta"), but there comes a time when it's taking forever to form a perfect group and people just say fuck it. Zero data to back this up because it's all conjecture, but in a world where you didn't have to put your key on the line you can probably afford to be less picky about who you take to your key. Not having to worry about it suddenly becoming a 14 means you might just be willing to play the game after 5 minutes of looking, as opposed to sitting there for 20 minutes plus trying (and failing to get the best group possible).

Personally when I pug keys, and when I did keys a lot I would oftentimes pug a couple slots, while deciding on the group after a minute tops. That's when I own the key. It wasn't uncommon in BFA for me to witness the same people (on Monday night) trying to get a perfect group for well over and hour, as I cycled through a couple alts.

[Amarys]

You can't really be serious, this is a troll right?

Automated M+ doesn't work because not everyone is capable of doing it
Its like asking for LFR for heroic and mythic raids, they already have a hard time completing LFR

Only this does work. I was in a LFR guild basically before I stopped playing. The guild leader was an altoholic so he ran 10 raids a week to gear hes alts. Everyone who wanted got an invite into the guild and he only asked for item level from those who wanted to join hes raids. We cleared normal every time and heroic about half way into the patch (but even killing a few bosses at the start was a great way to gear up). He didn't organize mythic raids though.

Still, I'd imagine LFR would work in the same way. Just up the level requirement and add a RL position for extra rewards with the ability to kick.

[Relapses]

Easily the worst suggestion I've seen on this website. I already hate the people I choose to run keys with. I'd hate them even more if the game chose them for me.

[Alroxas]

Well see, they really weren't that bad, they just weren't faceroll "gather all mobs up until the first boss and AOE down" easy. Did I have some wipes? Yes, but it was really fun to have a dungeon difficulty to where we actually needed to try and make a plan.

I didn't think Cata dungeons were bad either but the majority of the playerbase didn't agree and were very vocal about it.

As for making a plan, seasonal affixes that triggered every 20% of mob count did show a sharp increase in fore planning. Season 2's affix relaxed that requirement but even in higher keys there's still a good amount of planning going on. A favorite example is De Other Side and whether it's better to go left or right around the ring in high keys (17~20+ range).

And how is what we have a good system? Having random key rolls is fucking annoying to people who play solely in house with friends as well, and there are absolutely times where variance leads you with keys that you simply are sick of doing.

I never said that the current system is "good". I merely pointed out that your proposal is bad for the reasons I mentioned. And as for getting random keys, honestly it's probably a good thing as it forces players out of their comfort zone to tackle disliked dungeons. I recall one week where all my friends and I got ToP keys, which meant a lot of "practice" runs for us on a dungeon we didn't like as much as others. Besides once we defeated that dungeon (either in time or not) we got keys for other dungeons. Sure the non-timed ones were 1 level lower but it's not like we could then time that key to get another.

Most people if the key is somewhat valuable (to them) probably are going to be really picky with who they do the key with when pugging, which makes the pugging process even longer and drawn out.

Taking longer to PuG, specifically forming up a group seems to be a good approach considering we all want to succeed in a dungeon. If anything I think folks are quick to accept that high ilv and high M+ score player right off the bat in group finder rather than checking to see if their goals align with the group's. Like is it an acceptable outcome to just finish the dungeon if mistakes are made and we can't time it especially as you put it, early in the season.

Not every player wants to spend 50+ minutes to finish a dungeon that should be finished in around ~30 minutes. And yes, you might still ask all the right questions and get group agreement of the goals only to end up with someone leaving early (and bricking the key). But overall, if folks check before starting, then the odds go down. Most players are decent enough to see that if the goals don't align, then they would rather leave and find another group BEFORE the run is started. Exceptions do exist like that Tauren player who purposely joins groups to brick their key because they got a key bricked a few times on them. (I think that player's profile on r.io even says why).

Only this does work. ... He didn't organize mythic raids though.

First, raids aren't a good comparison to M+ as carrying dead weight is much harder to achieve in a dungeon compared to in a raid. Depending on raid size, it's possible to have 1~2 people go down and still complete the raid encounter. Heck, I've seen fights where we're down to just the last tank, healer and few dps left.

That's much more difficult to do in a M+ where if a player goes down things can get dicey real fast especially if the player that goes down is a healer or a tank. I'm not saying it's impossible but in a dungeon it's very unlikely.

Just up the level requirement and add a RL position for extra rewards with the ability to kick.

Group leader with ability to kick... that just sounds like a terrible time. Or a great time if you're boosting... do a dungeon, get to the last boss, kick the 5th player to bring in your carry for the last boss and get EoD rewards + completion for score and Great Vault.

As for ilv requirement... it would be hilarious to see what M+ ilv scale you think is appropriate for the keystone level. What ilv would qualify for a +10? a +15?

[Drusin]

Mythic 0 too

[RobertMugabe]

I said it. When I was playing WoW I first experienced M+ when I joined a M0. Didn't think it was that bad but then once I got up around 8-10 I noticed finding groups became painful. Bare in mind I was a frost mage and at the start of 9.0 after pre-launch nerfs Frost Mages were dookie. Fire wasn't but man I really really hate twitchy gameplay.

Being honest here--there's no good logical reason from my perspective as to why this doesn't happen. I know people will all say comp comp comp--my response is that the burden of responsibility for balancing the game so that all specs, and all classes are viable with one another is a dev issue, and any deviation from that statement is you as a paying customer being okay with a subpar product.

Hire some actuaries to balance your numbers and let players connect with one another automatically. The insistence on Premade grouping is so dated and not helpful to anyone.

It could work, but only if m+ was drastically revamped. They'd have to get rid of the competitive aspect of it essentially, which means they'd get rid of the timer.

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Except, logically Blizzard just wouldn't add in a queue for M+ and call it a day, for lots of reasons already discussed. Players would be upset at messing up keys and leave. Players would likely be even more toxic to each other in a variety of ways because of the increased issues. The difficult at many would cause issues, and like the above poster said, they would say they pay for the game so this should be more easily doable for them. The wait times for DPS would be off the charts, more complaining. New abilities that aren't in Heroic mode, complaining. You can't really punish people for leaving, complaining.

None of these are valid complaints yet we would hear them anyway and this would force Blizzard to change Mythic. I actually called this when it was announced, and I called this when they started nerfing "heroics" and basically made normal dungeons not a thing. We already experiences this idea in Cata, when heroics weren't an absolute breeze and people lost their shit.

Maybe you're right or wrong, idc, however this whole "Some people will whine"-excuse is the worst bs argument to anything. It's plain stupid that people keep even bringing this up in any discussion. If that was a true concern to Blizzard, then they would never dare to change or add anything in the game.

You could've said the exact same thing to when they initially added m+:
"They shouldn't add m+, because people will bitch and whine and will demand to be able to finish everything they want as customers."

[Evolixe]

It could work, but only if m+ was drastically revamped. They'd have to get rid of the competitive aspect of it essentially, which means they'd get rid of the timer.

You do realise that part of the game is entirely player-driven?

They couldn't get rid of the timers if they tried. Places like Rio would just tie a lower score to keys taking longer on their own accord.

[Amarys]

First, raids aren't a good comparison to M+ as carrying dead weight is much harder to achieve in a dungeon compared to in a raid. Depending on raid size, it's possible to have 1~2 people go down and still complete the raid encounter. Heck, I've seen fights where we're down to just the last tank, healer and few dps left.

That's much more difficult to do in a M+ where if a player goes down things can get dicey real fast especially if the player that goes down is a healer or a tank. I'm not saying it's impossible but in a dungeon it's very unlikely.




Group leader with ability to kick... that just sounds like a terrible time. Or a great time if you're boosting... do a dungeon, get to the last boss, kick the 5th player to bring in your carry for the last boss and get EoD rewards + completion for score and Great Vault.

As for ilv requirement... it would be hilarious to see what M+ ilv scale you think is appropriate for the keystone level. What ilv would qualify for a +10? a +15?

I was responding to the post that claimed raid finder wouldn't work for heroic and mythic raids. As for possible abuses, well you can never fully fix that with any kind of automated system but you could mitigate it. So for instance the solution to your example would be just to block manual invites. If you kick someone, you can either do it with 4 or use the group finder to find a replacement only. Also to prevent trolls from abusing the system, if you sign as the group/raid leader and fail to finish the instance too often(you're either incompetent and unfit to be a leader or are trolling or abusing the system), your account will be blocked from using that option again, you can still sign as a regular member though.

[Vampyrr]

I don't think I said abolish premades. But let me be clear here: Premade LFG won't go anywhere, it'll just have to compete with a queue.

The whole point of M+ is to pick who and what you want not to get random classes. Composition is important and a random lfg queue will not function with this. Now a queue for M0 would be fine.

[Rinaul]

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

Actually...
Insanity: (noun) the state of being seriously mentally ill; madness.

[Argorwal]

Lets all be honest here - retail wow is not really a social MMORPG anymore. You lvl to max and have a battlestation were you pick raiding, dungeons or pvp. You do these activities mostly with randoms without the need for much else than "do your part and move on".

Its weird but everytime I decide to put time into BC or especially classic, I get to know other players more than just a means to an end. Theres more going on. While on retail is a solo endevour for the most part.

That is the flip side of accessibility.

Everything being cross realm

Loot lockouts instead of instance IDs

More easily puggable content (5 mans) providing gear better than most forms of organized raiding. The content is even easier for mostly better rewards (+15s are at best mid-boss heroic raid difficulty).

Primary stat changing in gear allowing players to easily swap roles.

These accessibility changes over the years come at the cost of decreasing the need to socialize, outside of more serious raiding guilds or high key pushers.

[neik]

I said it. When I was playing WoW I first experienced M+ when I joined a M0. Didn't think it was that bad but then once I got up around 8-10 I noticed finding groups became painful. Bare in mind I was a frost mage and at the start of 9.0 after pre-launch nerfs Frost Mages were dookie. Fire wasn't but man I really really hate twitchy gameplay.

Being honest here--there's no good logical reason from my perspective as to why this doesn't happen. I know people will all say comp comp comp--my response is that the burden of responsibility for balancing the game so that all specs, and all classes are viable with one another is a dev issue, and any deviation from that statement is you as a paying customer being okay with a subpar product.

Hire some actuaries to balance your numbers and let players connect with one another automatically. The insistence on Premade grouping is so dated and not helpful to anyone.

Lack of confidence can be cured by constantly practicing. You have to keep making those groups by yourself (nobody owes you an invite). There are a lot of candidates willing to run the keys. The question you should ask yourself is are you willing to lead.

Matchmaking casual content has always been fine, anything more serious and you need to follow the usual gaming hierarchy.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I wasn't implying that we should go back to Cata or anything, but its just a good comparison here to where players demanded change mainly because it was in LFD, the same thing would happen to M+, in my opinion.

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Maybe you're right or wrong, idc, however this whole "Some people will whine"-excuse is the worst bs argument to anything. It's plain stupid that people keep even bringing this up in any discussion. If that was a true concern to Blizzard, then they would never dare to change or add anything in the game.

You could've said the exact same thing to when they initially added m+:
"They shouldn't add m+, because people will bitch and whine and will demand to be able to finish everything they want as customers."

I wasn't bringing that up implying that its a worry by Blizzard, its a worry by me. Just adding queue would be fine, but it wouldn't stop there and thats the point. Thats a problem, and a very valid worry by people who like M+ as it is. The same thing I am talking about happened with Heroics, and LFR, when those became queueable, just constant whining which lead to lots of changes. SOme were good and some were bad. The OP here has already mentioned the removal of Keys and I think Affixes, and M+ specific boss mechanics. Thats my fear, "lets just make it easy" ... its just not a good idea.

[Battlebeard]

100% agree!

Nothing more depressing than getting declined for 3 hours straight cause leaders are ignorant and value a raider.io score over anything a player has done in the past that proves they are good.

[odamienskii]

I said it. When I was playing WoW I first experienced M+ when I joined a M0. Didn't think it was that bad but then once I got up around 8-10 I noticed finding groups became painful. Bare in mind I was a frost mage and at the start of 9.0 after pre-launch nerfs Frost Mages were dookie. Fire wasn't but man I really really hate twitchy gameplay.

Being honest here--there's no good logical reason from my perspective as to why this doesn't happen. I know people will all say comp comp comp--my response is that the burden of responsibility for balancing the game so that all specs, and all classes are viable with one another is a dev issue, and any deviation from that statement is you as a paying customer being okay with a subpar product.

Hire some actuaries to balance your numbers and let players connect with one another automatically. The insistence on Premade grouping is so dated and not helpful to anyone.

Il tell you the reason, because by making classes unbalanced blizzard is creating playable content without having to do anything, if you want to be viable in m+ you have to reroll and spend x amount of hours gearing your new toon, it also gives the bad players the opportunity to be amongst the good players, which is what blizzard has been striving to achieve since wotlk, something that is incredibly unhealthy for the state of the game, which shows by expansion on expansion how subs have shrunk, the first time they fully achieve a game where all the bads are up with the goods and look what we have....unsubs. fucktons of unsubs.

[Twdft]

100% agree!

Nothing more depressing than getting declined for 3 hours straight cause leaders are ignorant and value a raider.io score over anything a player has done in the past that proves they are good.

Holding really old grudges now, aren't you?

I haven't touched M+ since Legion, I truly hate it, so the vault don't affect me much. Seems fine since I only raid.

[odamienskii]

100% agree!

Nothing more depressing than getting declined for 3 hours straight cause leaders are ignorant and value a raider.io score over anything a player has done in the past that proves they are good.

I always used to ask for legion and bfa score, just to show high key intelligence, got laughed at by all the new to shadowlands players (everyone) the general understanding of pushing high keys doesnt go away once you learn it, its what rips the key most, the ability to track interupts, knowing what to interupt, knowing what to cc, knowing when to use a defensive. being willing to use a defensive over a dps spell in order to survive.

When your in the top 1% of players HOW DARE YOU look for players of the same skill level with the right mindset.

The apes that i was seeing 2500rio got too much, absolutely clueless players that got there 20s for the portal (2200) and decided oh maybe im good enough to push further. this game isnt so hard after all. no its not, but with them in the party its god damn impossible beyond a certain point which is why when i left there was just a massive bottleneck of 2500 rio players, 1 or 2 guys in EVERY party with an undeserved score stopping the key from being in time. every key.

[barackohmama]

Maybe for lesser keys like up to +10, but above that no thanks. Maybe you can chose in the queue what level you want(given you got a matching key in your bags and +0 for no key). Heroic is just a joke idk why it's even called that. Miss those times when HC was actually challenging with lesser gear same with +0 mythic.

[Battlebeard]

I always used to ask for legion and bfa score, just to show high key intelligence, got laughed at by all the new to shadowlands players (everyone) the general understanding of pushing high keys doesnt go away once you learn it, its what rips the key most, the ability to track interupts, knowing what to interupt, knowing what to cc, knowing when to use a defensive. being willing to use a defensive over a dps spell in order to survive.

When your in the top 1% of players HOW DARE YOU look for players of the same skill level with the right mindset.

The apes that i was seeing 2500rio got too much, absolutely clueless players that got there 20s for the portal (2200) and decided oh maybe im good enough to push further. this game isnt so hard after all. no its not, but with them in the party its god damn impossible beyond a certain point which is why when i left there was just a massive bottleneck of 2500 rio players, 1 or 2 guys in EVERY party with an undeserved score stopping the key from being in time. every key.

I dunno man, I always had the mindset that raiding and doing dungeons is like riding a bike, you never forget, like "once a mythic raider, always a mythic raider", anyone good enough to get 1 cutting edge is good enough to get any cutting edge. Obviously you need to learn tactics, but if someone, for instance, links a cutting edge for a previous expansion + say they know tactics, I'd invite them to HC every day of the week, I value that more than someone with the current Ahead of the curve.

Same for M+. I did high keys in Legion, which one can argue were easier dungeons, but still, I understand the pressure of high keys and affixes etc, but since I have nothing done in SL, I still can't get invited to a single M+ dungeon. I find it riddicilous that I can't get invited to anything above maybe +5 right now when I did +25 in Legion.

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Holding really old grudges now, aren't you?

I WISH I could do some M+, I don't hate the concept, I just hate the way the leaders operate. Unless you are already in the raider.io club, you can't get in

[Alroxas]

I WISH I could do some M+, I don't hate the concept, I just hate the way the leaders operate. Unless you are already in the raider.io club, you can't get in

So wait, what prevents you from using your own key and climbing up to the +20 (or higher) that you previously achieved in Legion? Or is it you just don't want to bother with that progression and want to shortcut straight to high keys based on a previous expansion's experience/score?