Should WoW adopt a tougher stance on Toxicity in-game?

[Krawu]

Yes, like so many authoritarians I think people who call children the n word should be asked to leave.

When you call something like that "authoritarian", you aren't demonstrating that you are some brave advocate for free speech. You are just demonstrating that you are a whiner who doesn't like the responsibility that comes with freedoms. This is a toddler's idea of freedom, like gorging on ice cream and then blaming your parents for why you feel sick.

I can handle the responsibilities of freedom just fine because I've never threatened anyone online.
What I'm objecting to is regulating open and free discourse, even if some of it is in truly bad taste. And if you say that advocating for free speech is like a toddler gorging themselves on ice cream, I'm wanna keep gorging myself until I burst. Because so far I've not felt sick, and I'm certainly not gonna complain if I ever do because I'll be aware that it's my own damn fault.

Just because the one psycho in a million has decided to cyberstalk you on facebook (through information you supplied yourself) shouldn't mean that you get to gag everyone else.

[NineSpine]

Again, this goes back to a notion I touched on last page. I hear what you're saying and I agree with it on a salient level -- the problem lies in that an individual's tolerance for rude behavior is likely going to vary. When we try to qualify that level of tolerance by putting a person in charge of determining what is or isn't considered tolerable behavior, we're actively pushing the community in a direction where certain aspects of behavior are less likely to be discussed openly for fear of potential retribution. It'd be an incredibly tight rope for Blizzard to walk should they want to go down this road but as I said I feel the resources used to have a pair of human eyes make these kinds of determinations would be best used elsewhere.

I hear you, but ultimately the vast majority of society operates with these sorts of rules. I think that the idea that it is particularly hard or complex to implement in a video game just doesn't make sense in light of that. Nobody is sitting around hemming and hawing about the right level of racial slurs and screaming to tolerate in a restaurant or a store.

[Jinpachi]

Nope. Because if i want to call a dumbfuck cocksucker a dumbfuck cocksucker in game, i should be able to. that's why there's a fucking profanity filter.

[jeezusisacasual]

I looked into it a bit more and I misremembered the situation. I'll edit my post accordingly. A player was banned for using the information from the DPS to harass another player. Harassment obviously isn't okay but I'd also find it weirdly Draconian if WoW players were suddenly held to the same standard that FFXIV uses to determine toxicity. There's a line between what some people might claim harassment and what others may just see as a dude providing information in a manner that's less-than-couth. If we start trying to define where that line is, it starts to feel an awful lot like censorship. Just my 2c.

I tend to expect people to act in a manner as they would when out in the general public. Harassment is different among cultures even but i agree with the final fantasy approach in regards to push the populace in a way that is helpful for the most people in general. This is not to say that people should take every single slight as an assault on them personally but within reason. Its up to the holders of the virtual space to determine what is safe to say and what is not and rules should be enforced in a manner that corrals degenerate behavior.

[Jinpachi]

Absolutely!
Blizzard should do more so those that respect the time and effort of their fellow gamers won't have to endure a toxic in-game experience of playing with those that wilfully don't put in an effort to do their best.
Just look at FFXIV that actively persecutes those that that put in an effort and protects those that wilfully won't put in an effort.

But if you mean that those that toxic asshats that don't 'want to put in an effort should be protected and cuddled then you are promoting toxicity in-game.

Say no to toxicity! Don't encourage and support players that don't respect the time and effort of their fellow gamer!

join a guild. nobody is forcing you to play with strangers.

[Relapses]

I hear you, but ultimately the vast majority of society operates with these sorts of rules. I think that the idea that it is particularly hard or complex to implement in a video game just doesn't make sense in light of that. Nobody is sitting around hemming and hawing about the right level of racial slurs and screaming to tolerate in a restaurant or a store.

True, but automation can and already does take care of a lot of that type of behavior. It's the minutiae wherein the complexity arises. Just an example I could see happening: M+ run, going smoothly if a bit slow. Suddenly, the group wipes after the tank dies to a missed interrupt. Tank asks why the Hunter didn't interrupt when he could tell his interrupt was up. Hunter doesn't respond. Tank links a meter which shows the Hunter had zero interrupts. Tank links another meter which shows the Hunter underneath the tank for overall DPS. Hunter still says nothing and instead reports the tank for "harassment," because he feels like the tank didn't need to post the second meter but did anyway. To go back to the comparison I was making earlier I don't know if this would be considered harassment in FFXIV terms but this is something I see on an almost daily basis in WoW. If, say, Blizzard takes a stance where a line in the sand is drawn where extraneously linking DPS meters is frowned upon (or potentially actionable) then players will naturally simply stop linking meters. Meanwhile, the Hunter from the first situation learns nothing from the experience and may even feel justified that the tank was punished for simply trying to relay a point.

There are countless other examples I could come up with in this regard and hell, maybe you agree that the tank in this example was just being a dick... I don't (obviously), and I'd hate for WoW to become the kind of place where that sort of thing is actively policed.

[NineSpine]

I can handle the responsibilities of freedom just fine because I've never threatened anyone online.
What I'm objecting to is regulating open and free discourse, even if some of it is in truly bad taste. And if you say that advocating for free speech is like a toddler gorging themselves on ice cream, I'm wanna keep gorging myself until I burst. Because so far I've not felt sick, and I'm certainly not gonna complain if I ever do because I'll be aware that it's my own damn fault.

Just because the one psycho in a million has decided to cyberstalk you on facebook (through information you supplied yourself) shouldn't mean that you get to gag everyone else.

Yes, that is what a child thinks freedom is. An adult knows that freedom comes with responsibilities. For example, freedom of speech REQUIRES the banning of threats because threats stifle more valuable speech. Libel, slander, and a host of other types of destructive speech are rightfully banned because they are corrosive to open and free discourse. People figured this out in the 18th century, and they were the very same people that pioneered the implementation of the freedoms you are pretending to understand and advocate for.

Furthermore, open and free discourse isn't valuable everywhere. You don't have open and free discourse on your property, so cut the horseshit act. You know that if I came onto your property and started screaming racial slurs at you you would ask me to leave. You aren't impressing anyone with this phony free speech warrior shit.

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True, but automation can and already does take care of a lot of that type of behavior. It's the minutiae wherein the complexity arises. Just an example I could see happening: M+ run, going smoothly if a bit slow. Suddenly, the group wipes after the tank dies to a missed interrupt. Tank asks why the Hunter didn't interrupt when he could tell his interrupt was up. Hunter doesn't respond. Tank links a meter which shows the Hunter had zero interrupts. Tank links another meter which shows the Hunter underneath the tank for overall DPS. Hunter still says nothing and instead reports the tank for "harassment," because he didn't need to post the second meter but did anyway. I don't know if this would be considered harassment in FFXIV terms but this is something I see on an almost daily basis in WoW. If, say, Blizzard takes a stance where a line in the sand is drawn where extraneously linking DPS meters is frowned upon (or potentially actionable) then players will naturally simply stop linking meters. Meanwhile, the Hunter from the first situation learns nothing from the experience and may even feel justified that the tank was punished for simply trying to relay a point. There are countless others and hell, maybe you agree that the tank in this example was just being a dick... I don't (obviously), and I'd hate for WoW to become the kind of place where that sort of thing is actively policed.

If automation took care of it we wouldn't be having this conversation. WoW is uniquely, profoundly toxic for the type of game it is, and to think that that is unrelated to the lack of moderation is really a stretch.

The situation you described would be ban-worthy in FF14 because of the meter issue, but lets say you took away the meter issue. In that case, it wouldn't be ban-worthy at all.

[Ringthane]

There is a limit to how well you can play. Its called a skill cap or skill ceiling. I've just reached that limit and most people recognize it.

Most people look at limits as something to be tested, to be overcome. You seem to be quite happy to be stuck at yours. Puzzling why you think that makes you better.

[cparle87]

The guy I was arguing with actually quite explicitly said that rape threats regarding children are not over the line for him.

"Online content is not rated." The world is a scary place, man. Remember all the media demonizing the WiiU cause it had wifi capability and showing all the horrible stuff kids could get exposed to, like KKK and bomb makers.

[Swnem]

Honestly, yes. I am a big fan of the things FF did on that front.
You get the community you foster. If WoW does not foster their community, it's gonna be toxic. It's that simple. If people can be given the choice to be nice or to be trash, they will choose to be trash cause there is no repercussion. If there is no repercussion, there is no transgression.

This would be like being able to steal a jewelry store or not. No, you really should not do that to the owner. But, if you don't go to hail for it why not, eh?
Consequences matter. Punishment matters. Otherwise it's chaos, and it's what we have.

For the record, i do think that the first person leaving a mythic+ key should still result in a deserter debuff for pve content. That is by far the worst thing atm.
And yes obviously things like you can vote to end it.

[NineSpine]

"Online content is not rated." The world is a scary place, man. Remember all the media demonizing the WiiU cause it had wifi capability and showing all the horrible stuff kids could get exposed to, like KKK and bomb makers.

And Six Flags rates the age range of their theme park based on the content, not based on the possibility that some mentally damaged person is going to run around screaming racial slurs at children, and it doesn't make you some brave warrior of free speech to be that mentally damaged person.

[kaminaris]

I've heard stories of people being banned for admitting they're using a DPS meter when using that DPS meter to point out somebody is underperforming. (They weren't banned for the action of calling somebody out but rather the admission of using a DPS meter.) I mean, I guess that's not the same as general toxicity but I don't think it's a huge jump to say that FFXIV players are generally discouraged from commenting on each other's performance (especially if that feedback is negative in nature). Different strokes but personally I'd prefer if such a doctrine were not implemented into WoW's code of conduct.

You absolutely can comment about performance of others, being dick about it is gonna get you banned.

And if you comment about performance on a fukken auto group normal dungeon you are inherently toxic af.

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So you admit that you're a proud authoritarian. Just gonna agree to disagree then.

What are you smoking, do you want people to make literal dumps in public space just because its not strictly written in law? Cause thats what you are advocating for.

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If automation took care of it we wouldn't be having this conversation. WoW is uniquely, profoundly toxic for the type of game it is, and to think that that is unrelated to the lack of moderation is really a stretch.

The situation you described would be ban-worthy in FF14 because of the meter issue, but lets say you took away the meter issue. In that case, it wouldn't be ban-worthy at all.

Worst part is that not only automation is terribad implementation (not sure if it still works like that when people can group report you for auto silence) but the manual thing isn't working, it looks like there are no GMs at all, or they dont give a fuck.

Plus name calling leaves a sour taste in a mouth of (sane) bystanders. It literally makes game less enjoyable.

[Sucralose]

And Six Flags rates the age range of their theme park based on the content, not based on the possibility that some mentally damaged person is going to run around screaming racial slurs at children, and it doesn't make you some brave warrior of free speech to be that mentally damaged person.

I think you are having a very hard time understanding that what you are proposing is far more harmful then what you claim is the worst case scenario. You use the most extreme and far out there situation put in the absolute worse light and yet people are still not convinced to buy into what you are selling.

The time of fear has passed. There was a moment in time just quite recently people would of rallied behind you but the audience you are talking to is to aware of the damage the restrictions you would want to impose.

[kaminaris]

I think you are having a very hard time understanding that what you are proposing is far more harmful then what you claim is the worst case scenario. You use the most extreme and far out there situation put in the absolute worse light and yet people are still not convinced to buy into what you are selling.

The time of fear has passed. There was a moment in time just quite recently people would of rallied behind you but the audience you are talking to is to aware of the damage the restrictions you would want to impose.

He doesn't have "very hard time understanding", he understands the issue perfectly.

And the only thing that is harmful is letting toxicity spread because people do not want to be held accountable for their actions under the pretense of "freedom speech", which they either dont understand or purposely use in a wrong context.

[Relapses]

If automation took care of it we wouldn't be having this conversation. WoW is uniquely, profoundly toxic for the type of game it is, and to think that that is unrelated to the lack of moderation is really a stretch.

The situation you described would be ban-worthy in FF14 because of the meter issue, but lets say you took away the meter issue. In that case, it wouldn't be ban-worthy at all.

Well, I mean in the example of screaming the n-word repeatedly... that has generally been dealt with pretty swiftly from my experience. (Had a buddy try to see how fast he could get banned because he wanted a reason to quit.) Obviously there are exceptions to every rule and I would be hesitant to call for full automation; humans are still necessary for any type of behavior system to work. The distinction I'm concerned with isn't so much with words (though these are an important factor) so much as it is general player behavior and the negative ramifications an overbearing system may bring with it. I know critics will be quick to say that a system which encourages kindness amongst all players is the goal of any such system but the degree I've seen it in action from the FFXIV community almost seems to intentionally lend itself to a seemingly unwarranted level of (what seems to me to be borderline disingenuous) positivity.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I just find it hilarious that you think advertising is over the line but calling a 12 year old the n word isn't worth banning someone for.

You aren't arguing in good faith here, but thats for the course. No one is actually saying saying calling children slurs is fine. But WoW already has multiple ways to deal with that. Most/all the scenarios you keep bringing up are the ultra extreme and I would say no common at all. You can already report people and ignore them for saying slurs. If enough people report they will be silenced and eventually banned\suspended. Playing since early 05, and the amount of times I have seen someone say the n word is very low. Some of the other examples you are mentioning are straight illegal in most? countries, and should be met with the law. Its definitely a fallacy for your reply to "I don't trust one persons example of basic toxicity" to then be "Oh so you're fine with sexual harassment, online stalking, and saying racial slurs to children?"

Mainly because those things are already against the ToS and result in bans, and no one here that I have seen is advocating for that threshold to lessen. In my opinion, routinely arguing in bad faith is toxic, while others in this thread have literally said would consider mentioning player performance at all is toxic, and that you should instead leave the group if you are upset that someone is playing badly instead of commenting on it, at all. "What is toxicity" isn't something that can really be answered easily. But like, 12 year olds can also use the profanity filter and not even be aware of what words were used.

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Honestly, yes. I am a big fan of the things FF did on that front.
You get the community you foster. If WoW does not foster their community, it's gonna be toxic. It's that simple. If people can be given the choice to be nice or to be trash, they will choose to be trash cause there is no repercussion. If there is no repercussion, there is no transgression.

Besides stifling so much freedom, my other problem with this point is how truly fake it is. We can all applaud FF for its rules, but most/many of those player sonly listen because they have to, as you basically said. I don't think at all its a culture issue. FF fans on this very forum are often nasty, and places like Reddit and Twitter are pretty awful too. You can see just as much "toxicity" on those subs.

[Caerrona]

If I get in a group with some shitter player, I let them know they are garbage and leave the group.

Don't join groups if you are bad. Period. I'm not going to give in to some whining snowflake because they are getting out dpsed by the healer. They are trash.

If you are experiencing "big meanie toxic players" it is 100% because you are a bad player.

[Tiev]

If I get in a group with some shitter player, I let them know they are garbage and leave the group.

Don't join groups if you are bad. Period. I'm not going to give in to some whining snowflake because they are getting out dpsed by the healer. They are trash.

If you are experiencing "big meanie toxic players" it is 100% because you are a bad player.

My god, I sincerely hope you're young and your parents haven't taught you better. Because if you're not, ugh.

[kaminaris]

Besides stifling so much freedom, my other problem with this point is how truly fake it is. We can all applaud FF for its rules, but most/many of those player sonly listen because they have to, as you basically said. I don't think at all its a culture issue. FF fans on this very forum are often nasty, and places like Reddit and Twitter are pretty awful too. You can see just as much "toxicity" on those subs.

It just isn't fake. People are genuinely polite and helpful there, i was pretty damned amazed when i talked with randoms and they wanted to have small talk.

You don't get that but the majority of people are just normal. Its the other part that turns the env into toxic cesspool.

[Devilyaki]

Yes they should and if you say no toxicity is fine you are part of the problem