Does anyone think Dragon Isles ISN'T next?

[Ximothy]

Now, imagine zones that are made to be traversed in the air. Then you don't have that immersion problem anymore. Just look at Vashir. That zone is effectively a flying zone, since flying and swimming in WoW are the same things, mechanically. It is possible to design such zones.

WoW has designed such zones.

Vashj'ir is pretty hated tho, despite my personal love of it, which is why I think Nazjatar was not made a water zone.

Storm Peaks was a levelling zone designed with mandatory flying (you could rent a flying mount if you did not have one) and people found it frustrating to navigate through. I remember in Cata people saying Vashj'ir was Storm Peaks but worse. Icecrown was also mandatory flying (since the quest hubs were air ships) but it's a lot flatter than Storm Peaks was so it wasn't as bad to navigate.

Wrath was a rough patch for flying with their experiments at zones designed with flying. the PvP zone that was a no-fly zone in the middle of the continent didn't help.

But that was years ago and Blizz does have better mechanics and more experience so personally I would like to see Blizz try another crack at a zone designed for flying.

[Snowfunk]

I don't know what's next.

Why would it be Dragon Isles?

[Ielenia]

Are you willfully ignorant? I'm advocating a compromise between flying a ground travel. As of now it's "You HAVE to play on the ground for 6 months and then you effectively HAVE to fly". Make ground travel generally easier+faster and flying harder+slower, that way both could coexist. Of course, in some zones one will trump the other. Large, open zones should be faster to traverse via ground travel. Mountain zones faster through flying.

And how is it a "compromise" when your idea involves making content to make flying worthwhile, i.e., content that can only be accessed if you have a flying mount?

Yeah, because all those birds, harpies, dragons and whatnot flying above our heads and then flying right to us to fight us on the ground is soo immersive. You're making my point for me: Immersion is at the moment an argument against flying, because all zones are designed to be traversed on the ground. Now, imagine zones that are made to be traversed in the air. Then you don't have that immersion problem anymore. Just look at Vashir. That zone is effectively a flying zone, since flying and swimming in WoW are the same things, mechanically. It is possible to design such zones.

That harkens back to what I said above: how is this a "compromise" if the content is instead designed with flying in mind, which means those that don't like flying either have to "suck it up and fly" or miss out on content?

You're honestly telling me, that traveling between A and B in WoW is a key gameplay element on the same level as character progression? Are you arguing in good faith?

It's amusing you accuse me of arguing in bad faith when you completely move the goalposts. We're not talking about 'key gameplay elements', we're talking here-- as per your own words-- wasting players' time. And having to level up just "wastes players' time" they could be using to join raids and participate in endgame.

Playing in Revendreth is objectively less efficient than playing in e.g. Bastion. The open world in WoW offers not that much activities: Pet Battles, gathering nodes and WQs. Getting from WQ A to WQ B takes much longer in Revendreth than it does in Bastion, thus you get more out of playing in Bastion. It's not about traveling in a straight line, but there are zones designs that actively try to discourage you from getting anywhere without flying. Yeah, that's nice while leveling, but at max level? If there was something to experience while riding up and down the mountains, fine. But as of now, WoW's outdoor activities are farming, pet battles and WQs.

... In other words: yes, basically anything that is not a straight path from point A to point B is a "pain to play in", because you don't like doing a bit of travel? Funny, Revendreth is one of my favorite zones to play in, by the way.

And you're right, because? I could easily argue, that many players leave the game, because it's too much of a hassle to get to the effectively mandatory WQs, that you need for AP, rep or any other currency that relates to player power at the beginning of an expansion.

No. No, you couldn't. Because just making the claim that "people leave" without offering any verifiable data, only "feels", is not "easily arguing".

[LordVargK]

snip

You're exhausting and you provide no arguments on your own, even after I asked you specifically to provide some.

Just understand that I don't want people to feel to be forced to fly. I want some zones designed for flying and some zones that are not and are faster to travel through on the ground. WoW is designed to be more time consuming at the beginning than in the end to prolong content artificially and not being able to fly is a part of this.
It is proven that there can be zones where flying is integral to the experience. It is also proven, that most (not all!) players take the path of least resistance. By offering both types of players, flyers and non-flyers, some zones where their preferred form of travel is optimal and rebalancing those two forms, we could maybe have expansions that don't feel artificially time consuming at the beginning. And an expansion about flying creatures would be the perfect time to introduce this.

[Ielenia]

You're exhausting and you provide no arguments on your own, even after I asked you specifically to provide some.

We are still talking about your arguments, like when I tried to explain to you that your compromise is not a compromise since it only benefits one side of the issue. If you want to move on to other arguments in our conversation, please first address what we're currently talking about.

Just understand that I don't want people to feel to be forced to fly. I want some zones designed for flying

By wanting zones designed for flying, you are "forcing" people to fly if they want to participate in the story content in those zones. And you can bet that the story campaigns are going to send players to those zones, whether they want it or not.

[Teriz]

I'm just going to put this out there; The Hearthstone expansion Descent of Dragons dealt with the resurrection of Galakrond and was full of dragons. One interesting aspect of that expansion was the use of airships;



There was an earlier leak called Awakenings that had airships being used as player housing, but that expansion dealt with a revamped Azeroth. Not sure any dragons were mentioned, but maybe Dragons and Airships are something that Blizzard likes to connect?

[The Stormbringer]

I've got this nagging fear it's Emerald Dream and/or "Lifelands" instead.

But if it's not that.... I mean it's something dragon-related and there aren't many new places like that. Heck not many old places either except Dragonblight.

Same, kinda. I think it'll take place on Azeroth and the Emerald Dream mostly. Maybe we'll find out that the ED is actually the "Gardens of Life", or it's a pale reflection of them or something.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Yeah that's what I meant, they COULD afford it and if they were smart they'd realize it would pay for itself, but lol they wouldn't.

But that suggestion could work really well.

TBH the biggest issue with any sort of world revamp is that there's just not enough development time in an expansion cycle for it. The only ways I see it working is as already presented, a truncated approach that starts with a new leveling experience, or leave it all to a secondary (or tertiary) team that works on it on the side.

But yeah, whatever revamp is made to the world has to be an evergreen experience that can be updated -hell, even going for a more "living" approach could be awesome- so many zones with so much potential to tell their own stories outside of the main narrative of any expansion.

[Musta]

it seens likely, but i guess no leak got it 100% right. we will need to wait and see

[rhorle]

TBH the biggest issue with any sort of world revamp is that there's just not enough development time in an expansion cycle for it. The only ways I see it working is as already presented, a truncated approach that starts with a new leveling experience, or leave it all to a secondary (or tertiary) team that works on it on the side.

But why would they revamp the leveling process "the world" when chromie time exists? It funnels new players into the previous expansion as leveling so they see the most "up to date" experience for story and mechanics. Revamping the world like in Cataclysm (or a full one) just doesn't make much sense anymore. You will only see old zones changed when they are used for new content like in BfA where a few zones got make overs because of story.

[Kavenoff]

As far as I am aware, I have never, not once, seen an accurately predicted expansion. I don't think anyone saw Wrath coming, or Cata, definitely not MoP, also definitely not Wod, Legion kinda cause of WoD ending, not BfA (at least the direction it took), and definitely not Shadowlands.

I'll be more surprised if it is Dragon Isles than if it's not.

Every expansion after Cata was leaked, usually on 4chan. Hell, SL was leaked on this very forum like three months before reveal.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

But why would they revamp the leveling process "the world" when chromie time exists? It funnels new players into the previous expansion as leveling so they see the most "up to date" experience for story and mechanics. Revamping the world like in Cataclysm (or a full one) just doesn't make much sense anymore. You will only see old zones changed when they are used for new content like in BfA where a few zones got make overs because of story.

The issue is that some expansion leveling experiences won't be new player friendly at all, in terms of the lore and the world. Shadowlands will kinda suck as a new player experience; that's why I think the game does need a new base leveling experience that feels evergreen, and divorced from any expansion narrative.

I do think that a new leveling experience from 10-60 that uses the starting areas to immerse people on the world would be the most friendly for new players. Elwynn Forest, Dun Morogh, Hyjal, Azuremyst and Gilneas for Alliance for example. But yeah, the rest of the EK and Kalimdor would only make sense to be revamped as either their own evergreen experiences for returning players as an alternative to that and Chromie time, or being reused in current content -which would date them to an specific time, however-

[Lora]

As far as I am aware, I have never, not once, seen an accurately predicted expansion. I don't think anyone saw Wrath coming, or Cata, definitely not MoP, also definitely not Wod, Legion kinda cause of WoD ending, not BfA (at least the direction it took), and definitely not Shadowlands.

I'll be more surprised if it is Dragon Isles than if it's not.

cataclysm was actually pretty close with one leak iirc. but yeah leaks are garbage and mean nothing. they are never accurate.

[rhorle]

The issue is that some expansion leveling experiences won't be new player friendly at all, in terms of the lore and the world. Shadowlands will kinda suck as a new player experience; that's why I think the game does need a new base leveling experience that feels evergreen, and divorced from any expansion narrative.

But why would a new revamp be better by default? It would still be applying the same princples in game design that they have in the latest expansion and would need to be updated every X years to keep it new rather then stale. As that is what I assume you are referencing with evergreen. This is why they went with Chromie time. The previous expansion has the most up to date story and "modern" design. A little bit of extra work is needed to make sure everything flows or is balanced for scaling but not nearly what is needed for a full revamp.

Would it be nice to have the entire world be brought current? Certainly. But they didn't even do that with Cataclysm and that apparently taxed their abilities to deliver both new and revamped content. It certainly would be an issue now since they seem to have been getting slower, even with out the pandemic, on content delivery.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

But why would a new revamp be better by default? It would still be applying the same princples in game design that they have in the latest expansion and would need to be updated every X years to keep it new rather then stale. As that is what I assume you are referencing with evergreen. This is why they went with Chromie time. The previous expansion has the most up to date story and "modern" design. A little bit of extra work is needed to make sure everything flows or is balanced for scaling but not nearly what is needed for a full revamp.

I am referring to Evergreen hollistically, as an experience that doesn't feel dated in terms of gameplay nor narrative and immersion; that's the major problem of Chromie Time; it serves to give seasoned players the experience of expansions past, but does not serve as an introduction for new players. As I said, in terms of introduction to the World, Shadowlands would be bad for new players; specially one that is described as the end of an era. BfA worked as a leveling experience it was pretty much still set on Azeroth, with Horde and Alliance as the main focuses and lead into Shadowlands narratively, but SL is an ending, and it really wouldn't work on many levels as a new player experience

WoW needs a leveling experience akin to Exile's Reach but all the way up for new players; Chromie Time fulfill its function on alts and it would continue to do so.

Would it be nice to have the entire world be brought current? Certainly. But they didn't even do that with Cataclysm and that apparently taxed their abilities to deliver both new and revamped content. It certainly would be an issue now since they seem to have been getting slower, even with out the pandemic, on content delivery.

That's exactly my point, that's why I think a new leveling experience of like 5 zones would be far more plausible than a full world revamp. What I am saying on the side is that more zones could be revamped individually either as additional leveling experiences or new endgame content in the vein of Darkshore and Arathi.

[Varx]

There is absolutely no chance in hell 10.0 isnt dragon isles.

[Ersula]

Every expansion after Cata was leaked, usually on 4chan. Hell, SL was leaked on this very forum like three months before reveal.

Every expansion except Legion & BFA

[Talon8669]

Genuinely curious if anyone on this forum thinks Dragon Isles isn't next.

As much as they were talking about the void and the void lords in BFA I wouldn't write that off yet.

[rhorle]

I am referring to Evergreen hollistically, as an experience that doesn't feel dated in terms of gameplay nor narrative and immersion;

But you will never get that if you've played the content once. So you are chasing a dream. New players get introduced to the latest in terms of game play and narrative. Because they are forced to play through the previous expansion. Something you don't seem to be aware of given how you think they are given outdated story and game play.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

But you will never get that if you've played the content once. So you are chasing a dream. New players get introduced to the latest in terms of game play and narrative. Because they are forced to play through the previous expansion. Something you don't seem to be aware of given how you think they are given outdated story and game play.

I think you're missing my point: Shadowlands is a narrative end, it makes no sense as a new introductory experience for new players, and that's a risk you run with any expansion that relies too heavily in previous lore. BfA could get away with it since SL was a direct continuation, but SL has been described as the end of a chapter and an era, it makes little sense to be the leveling experience for new players.

That's the whole point of an evergreen experience as Exile's Reach is; ideally, we would also see gameplay changes if major breakthroughs are made, but in terms of questing experience, WoW has plateau'd since WoD in terms of fidelity and mechanics.