Sargeras VS Zovaal

[Season2mask]

Don't really know much about Zovaal since WoW's lore is obviously utter shit, but I was watching a video that reminded me of him and I did a quick google to see what exactly he was now that we know more about him (I quit near the start of SL)

It's my understanding he's one of the members of the Pantheon of Death. Now, Sargeras is the big bad of the Pantheon of Order.

Who's stronger?

[Skirdus]

Realistically, Sargeras; but Danloser and his crew will argue to the sun and back that Zovaal is because of how "titan++" he is

[Edward Wu]

From everything we have seen, the Titans are on a whole other level of power compared to the Pantheon of Death.

[Giannis-GR]

Absolutely. Based on what has been portrayed in game, the Titan Pantheon are godlike creatures (even with the insertion of the First Ones, e.g. it'd be the same as Titans vs Olympian Gods in Greek mythology), whereas the Eternal Ones (including Zovaal) are 3D printed creations, who were created to watch over each realm of the SL (akin to Titan-Watchers).

However, my above statement is actually incorrect, because in the current lore setting, established lore does not matter. They could easily retcon any piece of the lore to completely change any balance. They have proved they do not care.

Therefore, as a conclusion: Of course Sargeras should be way more powerful than Zovaal.

However, all it takes is a random answer from e.g. Danuser in an interview saying "Oh well actually the Eternal Ones are XYZ more powerful compared to Titans" to throw out of the window any sensible discussion based on the lore (e.g. that's what he did with the "rope" analogy with alternate universes and Shadowlands that he just said on the spot in an interview, without having any reference in game, which makes ZERO SENSE, but has screwed up the lore in that regard)

[Dellis0991]

From everything we have seen, the Titans are on a whole other level of power compared to the Pantheon of Death.

^I'm guessing if they booted Zovaal out of the Shadowland and into the living world Sargeras would put his foot up Zovaal's pale ass and wear him like a sock.

Also Ohma coming for you Edward!

[Rockefellah]

Assuming each Pantheon is equal they would be on similar level. Probably closer to Norgannon then to Sargeras, though it did require all other members of the Pantheon of death to capture him the first time around.

[Crillam]

Well becasue they're retconned or retro fitted Zovaal to be this giant mastermind that has been pulling the strings since WC2, they would probably make him stronger and have him use domination magic to defeat Sargeras with ease.

[Hobbidaggy]

Also don’t forget we have seen zero evidence that the Eternal Ones can change form as well. Titans are able to literally become such giant embodiments of themselves and either stab a planet or reach down from the sky and physically rip an old god out of the surface of it.

With that in mind Sargeras could essentially just rip him apart.

If we take it that they are both set to the same size it would be another story. We have not really seen Zovaals power or Sargeras for that matter. We have heard they are powerful and their armies have done massive amounts of damage and destruction. But their influence and corruption seems to be more their power. Making others bend to their will and join them thus making their opposition weaker by infiltrating their ranks and destabilising their forces.

The most power we have seen is Sargeras stabbing Azeroth, him fighting and defeating the titans and cutting an entire planet in half. Zovaal has mostly corrupted others and brought a distance plane into the maw and then reclaimed his Sigil to open a portal to another realm where he seems to want to rework the universe but can’t do it without other power sources and energy from another being as well as machinery from other entities that created him.

All in all this makes me think Sargeras would be more powerful in a one on one fight. He knows how to fight and he is crazy enough to win. Where as Zovaal hasn’t really shown he is a fighter and he won’t have his army behind him to do all the work for him

[Kharnath]

I would open with...

Lore doesn't matter anymore and so there's no point in torturing yourself willingly over it.

With that said...

I view them as equal in a way.

Zovaal is the most powerful agent of Death.
Sargeras is the most powerful agent of Disorder.
Each (6) order is essentially as powerful as the others?

One thing that stands out to me though is how blizzard have said that Zovaal is responsible for everything to date (unless I'm mistaken about blizzard saying that)?

This means Zovaal tricked Sargeras into corruption (using the dreadlords). Which means that it's Zovaal 1 : Sargeras 0.

I don't like to allow emotion to conflict with my judgement, just because I (you) don't like something doesn't change that something to suit my (your) dislike of it, if that makes sense?

[Golden Yak]

The Titans seem far beyond any other force at their peak. Sargeras cut a planet in half.

[Kharnath]

The Titans...

But isn't Zovaal a "titan" just of the order of 'Death' not the order of... Order or Disorder?

I find it confusing...

Aren't the most powerful figures of each order (Light, Shadow, Life, Death, Order, Disorder) all Titans? All the same except they just exhibit their orders traits and "way of existence" EX: Zovaal being Titan of Death is obsessed with Death and everything is death death death etc. ?

[Golden Yak]

But isn't Zovaal a "titan" just of the order of 'Death' not the order of... Order or Disorder?

I find it confusing...

Aren't the most powerful figures of each order (Light, Shadow, Life, Death, Order, Disorder) all Titans? All the same except they just exhibit their orders traits and "way of existence" EX: Zovaal being Titan of Death is obsessed with Death and everything is death death death etc. ?

Well, it might wind up being that way. Prior to Shadowlands, the Titans were known as the greatest force in the cosmos and the only ones referred to as a being part of a 'Pantheon.' SL lore introduced this concept of the 'Pantheon of Death', but the entities in the PoD (Primus, Arbiter, etc.) weren't explicitly stated to be Titans.

The lore about the 'First Ones' suggests that they created the Pantheon of Death through a kind of artificial means in the Shadowlands using almost robotic constructs, while Titan lore was always that Titans were born in the souls of rare and powerful worlds in the mortal realm. It might wind up changing again I suppose, with the Titans turning out to be god-constructs similar to the Shadowlands deities.

[Kharnath]

Well, it might wind up being that way. Prior to Shadowlands, the Titans were known as the greatest force in the cosmos and the only ones referred to as a being part of a 'Pantheon.' SL lore introduced this concept of the 'Pantheon of Death', but the entities in the PoD (Primus, Arbiter, etc.) weren't explicitly stated to be Titans.

The lore about the 'First Ones' suggests that they created the Pantheon of Death through a kind of artificial means in the Shadowlands using almost robotic constructs, while Titan lore was always that Titans were born in the souls of rare and powerful worlds in the mortal realm. It might wind up changing again I suppose, with the Titans turning out to be god-constructs similar to the Shadowlands deities.

Yes it's coming back to me now yes, Titans are born from planets and I do NOT think anyone (Zovaal, Primus etc etc) in SL was born from a Planet.

So yeah the Titans SHOULD be distinctly on another level I think and thus Zovaal shouldn't be a threat to them should "push come to shove" the Titans should be able to just YEET Zovaal, in my opinion.

[deenman]

We would have to know how good domination magic is vs fel,but at the end of the day....i dont see an ant wining against an elephant

[olddog]

Empowered Devos>Kyrestia
Devos<5 players
Kyrestia, Primus, Winter queen, Denathrius>Zovaal
Zovaal=Titan++

WTF

[Khaza-R]

Sargeras should in theory be much more powerful even if all the pantheons are on the same level. He's essentially powered by two cosmic forces, not just one.

[Civciv]

Idk about the others but Archon is really powerless, she sucks. Probably akin to Titan Watchers..

[Houle]

Sargeras could literally rip Torghast out of the ground and use it as a toothpick lol
Not a single Eternal One has shown anything even close to the titans, in terms of power. The Eternal Ones might be their equivalent in status, but that doesnt mean they are as powerful.
Until we see Zovaal do anything close to evaporating multiple planets at once (like Sargeras did with the rest of the Titans), it should not even be a competition.

But, considering Zovaal is the new writers version of Sargeras, they would probably have him win through some "yada yada domination chains" crap or smth lmao

[Wadrak]

Tbh I dont understand why we didnt fight Sargeras directly in Antorus raid on Argus.

It was just cinematic at the end.

I mean I understand they want to save and use later perhaps. But why to show how he is defeated in cinematic ?

If he was defeated, or beaten, chained, in cinematic they could easily make him the real final boss of Legion and he could be imprisoned same way.

[Foolicious]

Sargeras should in theory be much more powerful even if all the pantheons are on the same level. He's essentially powered by two cosmic forces, not just one.

He also managed to kill his own pantheon in a matter of seconds. Zovaal lost against his kin and got imprisoned.