Sargeras VS Zovaal

[Aucald]

I don't remember Chronicle mentioning that Medivh was actively fighting Sargeras until he tried to kill Aegwynn.

Argus was not fully realized, he was forcibly forced into a physical form, he was not ready for this, he was still a world-soul, this can be seen if only because he did not hatch from the planet and yes, he was a battery for a long time. And even so, we won only thanks to the Pantheon. The Eternals at their best might be at Titan level, but they are definitely not at that level in HL. Archon was beaten by Devos and you're saying that the heroes who couldn't defeat Nzoth in 8.3 by themselves were suddenly able to defeat a Titan level creature in 9.1? Why would?

Medivh was actively fighting Sargeras' influence up to the point that Khadgar and Lothar killed him, as detailed in both The Last Guardian as well as Chronicle Vol. 2. Medivh's last words before his death were to thank Khadgar and Lothar for freeing him, before his soul, freed from Sargeras' taint, was sent to the "astral plane," presumably what we now know as the Shadowlands (Chronicle Vol. 2, pg. 134). The same is true of his duel against Aegwynn, detailed similarly in Chronicle Vol. 2, pg. 118.

Argus wasn't fully realized, no; but again he also received direct empowerment via Sargeras - and even in his unempowered form was fully capable of ending all life in the physical universe. We did have the Pantheon's help, as well; but they didn't really actively aid in the fight - up to the point that Eonar resurrected us (after Argus kills the entire raid in a single shot) they'd taken a pretty passive role doling out a handful of buffs. Devos really only wounded Kyrestes, and she also had been empowered by Zovaal - so she wasn't really acting just under her own power, either. I also think the heroes did most of the heavy work in defeating N'Zoth as well, so I maintain your comparison there is still flawed.

[darkoms]

Medivh was actively fighting Sargeras' influence up to the point that Khadgar and Lothar killed him, as detailed in both The Last Guardian as well as Chronicle Vol. 2. Medivh's last words before his death were to thank Khadgar and Lothar for freeing him, before his soul, freed from Sargeras' taint, was sent to the "astral plane," presumably what we now know as the Shadowlands (Chronicle Vol. 2, pg. 134). The same is true of his duel against Aegwynn, detailed similarly in Chronicle Vol. 2, pg. 118.

Argus wasn't fully realized, no; but again he also received direct empowerment via Sargeras - and even in his unempowered form was fully capable of ending all life in the physical universe. We did have the Pantheon's help, as well; but they didn't really actively aid in the fight - up to the point that Eonar resurrected us (after Argus kills the entire raid in a single shot) they'd taken a pretty passive role doling out a handful of buffs. Devos really only wounded Kyrestes, and she also had been empowered by Zovaal - so she wasn't really acting just under her own power, either. I also think the heroes did most of the heavy work in defeating N'Zoth as well, so I maintain your comparison there is still flawed.

He could actively fight, but as far as I understand, at the time of the battle with Aegwynn he was depressed and did not understand what was happening and he did not even know that Sargeras had him at that moment and he did not remember anything, only that he fought with Aegwynn and didn't kill her.



All this nonsense about killing all life in the universe is rather strange, perhaps this is due to the power of the Throne itself, given that later the spirits of the Titans with only the last spark of Argus were able to seal Sargeras, although they could not defeat him when they were full-fledged Titans? And this is just a game mechanic, from the point of view of the lore, they hardly just sat and watched. Oh really? I wonder if, for example, Ra-Den, enhanced by Sargeras, can seriously injure AmanThul? Well, most likely yes, if Sargeras gives him quite a lot of his powers, but it's unlikely he can if Sargeras only buffs him a little. And we also defeated Denatrius without anyone's help. The Eternal Ones may have been equal to the Titans sometime in the past, but they're hardly at that level of power right now. Are you really saying that the players who ended up losing the fight (i.e. N'zoth still had enough power to subdue them) did more than a huge beam created by a machine capable of destroying life on an entire planet and powered by itself Azeroth? lol

[Aucald]

He could actively fight, but as far as I understand, at the time of the battle with Aegwynn he was depressed and did not understand what was happening and he did not even know that Sargeras had him at that moment and he did not remember anything, only that he fought with Aegwynn and didn't kill her.

He didn't understand or know Sargeras was influencing him, but it was indeed occurring, and he was unconsciously fighting it nonetheless. I don't recall him not remembering what happened, either; he didn't discuss it with anyone else, but he was certainly aware of his own actions (even if he couldn't fully explain them). As Sargeras took over more and more, Medivh seemed to become colder and less emotional, by the time he was confronted by Lothar and Khadgar he was almost completely under Sargeras' sway, and Sargeras even partially manifested right before Medivh was killed. It was at that moment Medivh finally had clarity on what was happening to him, but it was far too late for him to do anything about it (save allowing himself to die and end Sargeras' machinations).

All this nonsense about killing all life in the universe is rather strange, perhaps this is due to the power of the Throne itself, given that later the spirits of the Titans with only the last spark of Argus were able to seal Sargeras, although they could not defeat him when they were full-fledged Titans? And this is just a game mechanic, from the point of view of the lore, they hardly just sat and watched. Oh really? I wonder if, for example, Ra-Den, enhanced by Sargeras, can seriously injure AmanThul? Well, most likely yes, if Sargeras gives him quite a lot of his powers, but it's unlikely he can if Sargeras only buffs him a little. And we also defeated Denatrius without anyone's help. The Eternal Ones may have been equal to the Titans sometime in the past, but they're hardly at that level of power right now. Are you really saying that the players who ended up losing the fight (i.e. N'zoth still had enough power to subdue them) did more than a huge beam created by a machine capable of destroying life on an entire planet and powered by itself Azeroth? lol

It's an ability he possesses - just like the ability "Wrath of the Lich King" possessed by the Lich King can kill the raid in lore, there's no real reason "End of All Things" shouldn't also be considered canon, except perhaps arbitrarily. Argus and Ra-Den are also two entirely different orders of being, one is basically a robot built by the Titans where the other is a Titan himself. The Eternal Ones in lore also haven't been de-powered or otherwise diminished by anything, why would they be lesser now than they previously were? I'm saying the players slaughtered their way through Ny'alotha, killing N'Zoth's generals and protectors, before devastating N'Zoth's very carapace and revealing the true aspect of the Old God before flensing him and his parasitic reality from existence via the Heart of Azeroth (which the PC bears themselves as Magni and MOTHER redirect Azeroth's energy flow to it). You're putting the entirety of the process on the Heart, but the Heart did nothing to blaze the trail to and through N'Zoth's realm and armor to bring the fight directly to the feet of the Old God. The Heart was needed to conclusively end the threat of Ny'alotha, but just like C'Thun and Yogg-Saron before it, we seem to have been fully capable of ending N'Zoth ourselves.

[darkoms]

He didn't understand or know Sargeras was influencing him, but it was indeed occurring, and he was unconsciously fighting it nonetheless. I don't recall him not remembering what happened, either; he didn't discuss it with anyone else, but he was certainly aware of his own actions (even if he couldn't fully explain them). As Sargeras took over more and more, Medivh seemed to become colder and less emotional, by the time he was confronted by Lothar and Khadgar he was almost completely under Sargeras' sway, and Sargeras even partially manifested right before Medivh was killed. It was at that moment Medivh finally had clarity on what was happening to him, but it was far too late for him to do anything about it (save allowing himself to die and end Sargeras' machinations).



It's an ability he possesses - just like the ability "Wrath of the Lich King" possessed by the Lich King can kill the raid in lore, there's no real reason "End of All Things" shouldn't also be considered canon, except perhaps arbitrarily. Argus and Ra-Den are also two entirely different orders of being, one is basically a robot built by the Titans where the other is a Titan himself. The Eternal Ones in lore also haven't been de-powered or otherwise diminished by anything, why would they be lesser now than they previously were? I'm saying the players slaughtered their way through Ny'alotha, killing N'Zoth's generals and protectors, before devastating N'Zoth's very carapace and revealing the true aspect of the Old God before flensing him and his parasitic reality from existence via the Heart of Azeroth (which the PC bears themselves as Magni and MOTHER redirect Azeroth's energy flow to it). You're putting the entirety of the process on the Heart, but the Heart did nothing to blaze the trail to and through N'Zoth's realm and armor to bring the fight directly to the feet of the Old God. The Heart was needed to conclusively end the threat of Ny'alotha, but just like C'Thun and Yogg-Saron before it, we seem to have been fully capable of ending N'Zoth ourselves.

He did not remember it, as stated in the Chronicle.


I'm not saying this ability is non-canon, I'm saying we don't know how it works and maybe it's related to the Throne because the spirits of the Titans shouldn't be able to catch Sargeras either. Once again, N'zoth likely recovered more than the other Old Gods given the scale of his actions and the fact that he had completely broken out of prison. The adventurers were constantly defeating some powerful evil, I don’t understand why the generals of the Old God impressed you so much. And I repeat once again, the heroes lost and Magni saved them by using the power of Azeroth. The heroes had no chance against the Old God at full strength.

[Aucald]

He did not remember it, as stated in the Chronicle.

He didn't remember Sargeras being largely in control of him, but he remembered clashing with Aegwynn as per Chronicle Vol. 2, pg. 119. He thought his unstable powers might've gone out of control again - but he did recall they clashed. Medivh and Aegwynn didn't get along, after all; although it was likely Sargeras' baleful influence that was behind that.

I'm not saying this ability is non-canon, I'm saying we don't know how it works and maybe it's related to the Throne because the spirits of the Titans shouldn't be able to catch Sargeras either. Once again, N'zoth likely recovered more than the other Old Gods given the scale of his actions and the fact that he had completely broken out of prison. The adventurers were constantly defeating some powerful evil, I don’t understand why the generals of the Old God impressed you so much. And I repeat once again, the heroes lost and Magni saved them by using the power of Azeroth. The heroes had no chance against the Old God at full strength.

Not really difficult to determine how it works, the description of the ability pretty much spells it out: "Argus ends creation, killing everything." It apparently doesn't require the investment of Sargeras' essence to use, either; given he uses it in all versions of the fight (and it makes no specific mention of Sargeras aiding him). I've always been of the mind that as the Old Gods perished, the remaining ones were somehow empowered by their vanquished sibling's essence - as if they shared a focus, so to speak, and as there were fewer Old Gods they grew in power (hence Xal'atath's reference to their infighting and how it was always intended for there to be a single victor among them). The generals of the Old Gods also weren't that impressive, but they were an obstacle in need of removal that the Heart had nothing to do with. I think the N'Zoth we encountered in Ny'alotha may well have been the strong incarnation of an Old God thus far, but he was still defeated and destroyed in pretty much short order - his plans to invade Azeroth and only really gotten underway and were rebuffed in a single content patch. Contrast this to a villain like the Thunder King, whose machinations spanned multiple patches and had considerable lead-up.

[Th3Scourge]

Zovaal or the Jailer whatever the fuck he's called is probably the worst lore character in wow. The damage he has done to the lore going all the way to back Warcraft II can't be discounted.

[czarek]

Dunno its like putting on scale fire and water. There is no stronger force. Both are strong and both are totally diffrent. There is any record that we got to defeat STRONGER BAWS after another ? I think not.