No positive development for the Night Elves at all...

[Mystikal]

And Undercity is not the same as Teldrassil. Are you serious? Undercity can be cleaned up and the gas removed, Teldrassil is fucking gone.

I said this at the time, and got booed by the Horde fans. I even pointed out that, during the Battle for Undercity, you see Goblins going out with masks on to spread the blight, completely immune to its effects.

If clearing up the blight in story terms is "too much trouble", then Forsaken can go in with masks on and do it over time. Blizzard just then re-uses the existing assets and phases players to a cleaned-up version of the Undercity.

Teldrassil, on the other hand, cannot just magically sprout back up without a massive suspension of disbelief. Yes, it could be regrown, but it would need to be regrown somewhere else.

On the topic of Wolfheart, it's even more stupid in that book than previously pointed out. I remember reading it at the time, Tyrande has just been outmanoeuvred for about the sixth time, and she decides, there and then IN THAT MOMENT, to do something completely unexpected. Despite this, Garrosh has troops waiting to COUNTER THIS COMPLETELY UNKNOWN TACTIC. It was a literal "what the fuck?" moment. Garrosh was painted as a hyper-genius who can anticipate his opponents making moves that they themselves had never even thought about.

Then, at the end, Varian and a dozen or so Worgen show up and route them, in the same forest that Garrosh and the Orcs had suffered no losses in throughout the entire book.

It was completely Horde-centric writing but, knowing that would piss off a decent chunk of the fanbase, Golden shoe-horned in a completely implausible victory for the Alliance.

[VladlTutushkin]

Kaldorei got a shorter stick for sure. However, the Kalimdor book shows them mustering enough force to field commandos able to challenge for territories and that are especially lethal to the Horde - which is not surprising.

What is surprising however is how we're still unable to come to a consensus about this whole thing. Yes, it's a tragedy that Tyrande and Elune got utterly wasted in 9.1. However, meager as it is, Night Elves have at least some semblance of spotlight and identity cast upon them still.

Orcs have no leaders, Goblins have no directions, Forsaken are a mess, Thrall is going senile.
The rest of the Alliance cast is not in a better place either: Dwarves are straight up absent from whatever is not token representation via either of the Bronzebeard, Draeneis have their capital somewhere in space, Ren'doreis are a meme, and to top it all off Gnomes are still trying to claim Gnomeregan. A dungeon containing as many polygons as any given armor set produced since Legion.

It speaks volumes that any sensible faction war event worth discussing happened in the early 10s. Sure, Teldrassil has been an enormous inciting incident, but it's literally shock value cheap heat with such little substance behind it that leaves the whole thing hollow.

The current writing team has issues tying the burning tire that's the lore past Legion all together in a cohesive manner. And as much as I'm not a fan of their work, I sure hope they're able to leave this whole old baggage behind and go towards their own direction. For which I have literally no hope of decency, but at least there won't be any long standing beloved characters being further spoiled.

You do realise that bad attention is BAD attention? Night elf fans would prefer to be left alone forever after Cata, rather then suffer further and further and being literally cuckolded by the game.

[Jackstraw]

You do realise that bad attention is BAD attention? Night elf fans would prefer to be left alone forever after Cata, rather then suffer further and further and being literally cuckolded by the game.

Lad, I'm a Forsaken fan. Just believe me, I know.

[Ardenaso]

That is why I said playable races, you can say like Quilboar have been the punching bags since day 1 as well, or whatever race that was designed to be a non faction aligned enemy.

if there's a race that Blizzard hates more than Night Elves or Trolls, it's the Furbolgs

[omeomorfismo]

rotfl is funny how the probably most developed race after the humans, that even warp an entire class (druid) around its culture has so many threads of "why no new development for night elves"
damn, we were saved of "night elf zone n7146871612" just in mop and wod...
try to play a gnome, a tauren, a goblin or even a troll, thats the real shit, not the most expanded race in all warcraft

[VladlTutushkin]

rotfl is funny how the probably most developed race after the humans, that even warp an entire class (druid) around its culture has so many threads of "why no new development for night elves"
damn, we were saved of "night elf zone n7146871612" just in mop and wod...
try to play a gnome, a tauren, a goblin or even a troll, thats the real shit, not the most expanded race in all warcraft

Have you noticed how every time a nelf zone gets “developed” its either being burned to the ground by the Horde (with suitably pathetic resistance offered) or being corrupted by Emerald Nightmare for drama points.

More shit is more shit, nelf fans would rather have less content at this point, but GOOD content.

But for your understand i will simplify - Forsaken will get four zones dedicated to them… working with Calia, learning to love the living and forging bonds of friendship with Alliance. There will even be quest to kill “bad guy” forsaken who dont want to convert to peace and love.

Four zones though!

[omeomorfismo]

Have you noticed how every time a nelf zone gets “developed” its either being burned to the ground by the Horde (with suitably pathetic resistance offered) or being corrupted by Emerald Nightmare for drama points.

More shit is more shit, nelf fans would rather have less content at this point, but GOOD content.

But for your understand i will simplify - Forsaken will get four zones dedicated to them… working with Calia, learning to love the living and forging bonds of friendship with Alliance. There will even be quest to kill “bad guy” forsaken who dont want to convert to peace and love.

Four zones though!

like every other zone basically? that game works thanks conflict, so no conflict means no quests or story...
at least, unlike the forsaken, the nelves werent retconned with a 540° turn. to the contrary, the past and lore of the nelves is constantly expanded

[VladlTutushkin]

like every other zone basically? that game works thanks conflict, so no conflict means no quests or story...
at least, unlike the forsaken, the nelves werent retconned with a 540° turn. to the contrary, the past and lore of the nelves is constantly expanded

"Were not retconned" you mean, switch from warlike society to wimpy hippies is not a retcon? "Choosing renewal" is not a dump on their racial fantasy? Lol. Then Calia is perfectly in line with how Forsaken were portrayed before. Eat it and live with it.

[Darth-Piekus]

I will have to agree with Vlad. The Night Elves were a matriarchic society of Savage Amazon like women that forced Grom Hellscream to be impressed by their savagery. They were an empire that fought the Burning Legion alone for quite some time. World of Warcraft did retcon them a lot.

[omeomorfismo]

"Were not retconned" you mean, switch from warlike society to wimpy hippies is not a retcon? "Choosing renewal" is not a dump on their racial fantasy? Lol. Then Calia is perfectly in line with how Forsaken were portrayed before. Eat it and live with it.

calia what?
and yes, vanilla choosed to focus on the druid society of wimpy hippies, not rewriting completely from scratch. coosing renewal? sadly im not on date anymore with this game and barely follow forsaken degeneration, so if nelves had worse thing since the human potential meme then my bad. still not on par with the forsaken rewritting...

[VladlTutushkin]

calia what?
and yes, vanilla choosed to focus on the druid society of wimpy hippies, not rewriting completely from scratch. coosing renewal? sadly im not on date anymore with this game and barely follow forsaken degeneration, so if nelves had worse thing since the human potential meme then my bad. still not on par with the forsaken rewritting...

"Choosing renewal" refers to Tyrande forgiving Sylvanas and "letting go of hatred". She also spares her again later, in Oribos when Sylvanas herself didnt even resisted.

[omeomorfismo]

"Choosing renewal" refers to Tyrande forgiving Sylvanas and "letting go of hatred". She also spares her again later, in Oribos when Sylvanas herself didnt even resisted.

the ways of blanduin are infinite

[VladlTutushkin]

the ways of blanduin are infinite

Also some people say that Tyrande “choosing renewal” is a sort of “twist” on Sylvanas choosing vengeance and etc, etc. so by “choosing renewal” she will “not repeat the mistakes Sylvanas made”.

But what supposed to be so deterring about Sylvanas path? She got to rule strongest nation on Azeroth. She won nearly every conflict she has taken part of. She got spared by her enemies and absolved of all crimes.

Sounds like a win-win to me.

IF she got evaporated into nothingness in the end like Garrosh one could say that it “costed her her soul” but she is let go and leaves to search Shadowlands for Nathanos so… she literally lost nothing.

[Illusions]

Blizzard seems hell-bent on dunking on the only matriarchal society in WoW, I wonder why...

[Nerovar]

The Exploring books make it clear that in the war the Alliance lost
-Teldrassil

And the Horde lost:
-Undercity
-Both Warfronts
-Southshore in Hillsbrad
-The Mor'shan Rampart (the Horde-Barricaded border of the Barrens and Ashenvale)
And the Alliance retain ownership of their keep in Durotar on Orgrimmar's doorstep. Their fortress in the Barrens. And their towered up passage into Stonetalon.
The Horde also lost the leader characters of King Rastakhan, Gallywix, Sylvanas and Saurfang.

You conveniently forgot to mention that Ashenvale (the ancestral homeland of the Night Elves) and Darkshore both got overrun with Astranaar being put to the sword and Lor'danel getting blighted. Meanwhile you somehow think it's worth mentioning that Southshore, a completely ruined Alliance town that got blighted by the Forsaken was "reclaimed" and that Rastakhan died despite never being part of the Horde.

And the Alliance managing to defend their lands (in the case of both Warfronts) and not losing them to the Horde is not as big of an Alliance victory as you make it out to be. Let us also not forget that the loss of Teldrassil was infinitely more disastrous than the loss of the Undercity (which was evacuated beforehand and utilized as a trap to kill off any Alliance forces inside).

[Caerule]

You conveniently forgot to mention that Ashenvale (the ancestral homeland of the Night Elves) and Darkshore both got overrun with Astranaar being put to the sword and Lor'danel getting blighted. Meanwhile you somehow think it's worth mentioning that Southshore, a completely ruined Alliance town that got blighted by the Forsaken was "reclaimed" and that Rastakhan died despite never being part of the Horde.

And the Alliance managing to defend their lands (in the case of both Warfronts) and not losing them to the Horde is not as big of an Alliance victory as you make it out to be. Let us also not forget that the loss of Teldrassil was infinitely more disastrous than the loss of the Undercity (which was evacuated beforehand and utilized as a trap to kill off any Alliance forces inside).

I've already addressed in later posts that I indeed forgot the state of Darkshore, which due to haunting was indeed largely abandoned. Astranaar is back in Alliance hands and apparently reinforced though.

Anyway, my point isn't that the emotional cost and in lives was higher for the Horde. I wouldn't claim that. My point is that strength-wise, the Alliance is by far the victor of the war, coloring vital parts of the map blue, with none of them painted red. The Alliance has multiple fortress right on the Horde's doorstep. Even in their starting zone. They control the borders of their second zone. They have a new giant fortress in the Highlands. The Horde lost 4 important leaders. My point is that the Horde is in laughably vulnerable situation after the war.

I mean, you can even take a look at their leaders, and tell me if they compare.
Thrall: A warrior with shaman powers when the plot allows.
Anduin: Powerful War Cleric.
Rokhan: Shadow Hunter. Whatever that means.
Velen: Ancient Extreme Priest.
Baine Bloodhoof: Unremarkable Tauren Warrior.
Malfurion: The First Druid. Terrifying. Very powerful Elune Priestess
Lillian Voss: Pretty epic murderer, admittedly. Probably getting killed soon to make Calia a thing. Forsaken Priest.
Turalyon & Alleria: 1000 year Lightforged Paladin and deadly Void Ranger.
Lor'themar Theron: A ranger with a sword.
The Council of Three Hammers: Warrior, Gryphon Rider and Shadow Priest.
Gazlowe: Decent Tinker
Gelbin Mekkatorgue: Surpreme Tinkerer and War Machine Mechanic
Ji Firepaw: Monk
Aysa Cloudsinger: Monk
Thalyssra: Good Mage
Jaina Proudmoore: Extreme Mage
Mayla Highmountain: Alright Tauren Warrior
Genn Greymane: Head of the Worgen Pack.
Geya'rah: Orcish Warrior
Vereesa: World's Best Ranger
Talanji: Death Priest?
Tyrande: 12.000 year old Elune High Priest
Kiro: Scavenger
Whatever. Fill in any of the other power houses to counter Kiro. Nobundo, Lorthraxxian, Captain Fareeya, Maiev Shadowsong.

I hope you can see my point, at least. The Alliance has a lot of God Tier characters, where the Alliance only had Sylvanas to measure up to their heavy hitters like Malfurion, Tyrande, Velen, Jaina, Alleria, etc. Thanks to Azerite, Gallywix got close with his mech. And Bwonsamdi self-destructively boosted Rastakhan up to such levels. But those are gone, and leader-wise the Horde is laughably overwhelmed (Outside of Pandaren).

Now, added to that, the Alliance holds strategic strongholds within the Horde's very own lands. No one is disputing the Night Elves as a race, lost the most of any. But as a faction, Horde's in a really really shit place now.

[VladlTutushkin]

I've already addressed in later posts that I indeed forgot the state of Darkshore, which due to haunting was indeed largely abandoned. Astranaar is back in Alliance hands and apparently reinforced though.

Anyway, my point isn't that the emotional cost and in lives was higher for the Horde. I wouldn't claim that. My point is that strength-wise, the Alliance is by far the victor of the war, coloring vital parts of the map blue, with none of them painted red. The Alliance has multiple fortress right on the Horde's doorstep. Even in their starting zone. They control the borders of their second zone. They have a new giant fortress in the Highlands. The Horde lost 4 important leaders. My point is that the Horde is in laughably vulnerable situation after the war.

I mean, you can even take a look at their leaders, and tell me if they compare.
Thrall: A warrior with shaman powers when the plot allows.
Anduin: Powerful War Cleric.
Rokhan: Shadow Hunter. Whatever that means.
Velen: Ancient Extreme Priest.
Baine Bloodhoof: Unremarkable Tauren Warrior.
Malfurion: The First Druid. Terrifying. Very powerful Elune Priestess
Lillian Voss: Pretty epic murderer, admittedly. Probably getting killed soon to make Calia a thing. Forsaken Priest.
Turalyon & Alleria: 1000 year Lightforged Paladin and deadly Void Ranger.
Lor'themar Theron: A ranger with a sword.
The Council of Three Hammers: Warrior, Gryphon Rider and Shadow Priest.
Gazlowe: Decent Tinker
Gelbin Mekkatorgue: Surpreme Tinkerer and War Machine Mechanic
Ji Firepaw: Monk
Aysa Cloudsinger: Monk
Thalyssra: Good Mage
Jaina Proudmoore: Extreme Mage
Mayla Highmountain: Alright Tauren Warrior
Genn Greymane: Head of the Worgen Pack.
Geya'rah: Orcish Warrior
Vereesa: World's Best Ranger
Talanji: Death Priest?
Tyrande: 12.000 year old Elune High Priest
Kiro: Scavenger
Whatever. Fill in any of the other power houses to counter Kiro. Nobundo, Lorthraxxian, Captain Fareeya, Maiev Shadowsong.

I hope you can see my point, at least. The Alliance has a lot of God Tier characters, where the Alliance only had Sylvanas to measure up to their heavy hitters like Malfurion, Tyrande, Velen, Jaina, Alleria, etc. Thanks to Azerite, Gallywix got close with his mech. And Bwonsamdi self-destructively boosted Rastakhan up to such levels. But those are gone, and leader-wise the Horde is laughably overwhelmed (Outside of Pandaren).

Now, added to that, the Alliance holds strategic strongholds within the Horde's very own lands. No one is disputing the Night Elves as a race, lost the most of any. But as a faction, Horde's in a really really shit place now.

Your point is empty and destroys itself, and it was this way since time immemorial.

It DOSENT MATTER how strong the character is on paper. If the race keeps losing, keeps being shoved into humiliating peace treaties and treated as a WoW's version of Worf then this character being "so strong!" only makes them look even worse.

So either all those "god tier" characters do something for once and prove their power in service of the Alliance, or you can have Master of Aspects, Arcanest Arcanist, Dream-level Druid and fucken One Punch Man next expansion as Horde characters (pick whoever you want) but they will never use this power, job to characters much weaker then they are and generally only exist to get demolished by neutral threats to show how "dangerous" this new Bad Guy is , or maybe even destroyed by Alliance to show how dangerous and serious Alliance is in this expansion.

I will make it even simpler, just for you. If you say you strong, and words on paper say you strong, but you always lose and look pathetic to boot... are you REALLY strong?

[Caerule]

Your point is empty and destroys itself, and it was this way since time immemorial.

It DOSENT MATTER how strong the character is on paper. If the race keeps losing, keeps being shoved into humiliating peace treaties and treated as a WoW's version of Worf then this character being "so strong!" only makes them look even worse.

So either all those "god tier" characters do something for once and prove their power in service of the Alliance, or you can have Master of Aspects, Arcanest Arcanist, Dream-level Druid and fucken One Punch Man next expansion as Horde characters (pick whoever you want) but they will never use this power, job to characters much weaker then they are and generally only exist to get demolished by neutral threats to show how "dangerous" this new Bad Guy is , or maybe even destroyed by Alliance to show how dangerous and serious Alliance is in this expansion.

I will make it even simpler, just for you. If you say you strong, and words on paper say you strong, but you always lose and look pathetic to boot... are you REALLY strong?

I think that's a bit of a ridiculous argument. Yes, you could argue "lol, comparing two sides is meaningless, the story will find a way to go the way the writers want, by whatever tricks they come up with lol", but we're talking about which side is in the best shape, following the war.
And, these aren't power levels taken of a list that have no basis. A lot of these are based on actions shown in the game and story. You're just chucking it aside as a "lol, I don't have to think! And if I don't, your point is meaningless! Gotcha!" And if that's your only way to avoid admitting the current situation is advantageous to the Alliance, then I'll take that victory.

[VladlTutushkin]

I think that's a bit of a ridiculous argument. Yes, you could argue "lol, comparing two sides is meaningless, the story will find a way to go the way the writers want, by whatever tricks they come up with lol", but we're talking about which side is in the best shape, following the war.
And, these aren't power levels taken of a list that have no basis. A lot of these are based on actions shown in the game and story. You're just chucking it aside as a "lol, I don't have to think! And if I don't, your point is meaningless! Gotcha!" And if that's your only way to avoid admitting the current situation is advantageous to the Alliance, then I'll take that victory.

Situation is not “advantageous” to Alliance. They had all those “god tier” leaders and champions since Lich, and yet Horde dominated every large scale conflict they ended up in. Even when Horde “lost” due to infighting and had to regroup, they were not punished or put in the disadvantageous position, and next time the conflict began they still won handily again UNTIL they got into infighting.

So either those champions are paper tigers, worth far less then they sold for, or Horde learned to counter them without having similar “power houses”.

Call me when horde gets its “Teldrassil” moment. With shows of fear, weakness and despair, being downright crushed into mud and grounded under the boot.

Because thats what Alliance gets, and so i ask again - where are those champions and why does that keep happening?

[Darth-Piekus]

I would like to give right to both participants here. The Alliance was generally in a better position in all of WoW history with more powerful leaders having the better economy,manpower,logistics and strategic areas but yet not showing it on the field due to biased writing.

Malfurion for example a druid that had tremendous feats in the past going toe to toe with Deathwing, making Mannoroth a laughing stock when he was still a student and then taking the Nightmare alone not to mention the tornado zone destroyer feat should have been able to end the War of Thorns by himself killing the Horde army along with their leaders.