Now i look at bit different at Steve Danuser

[Syegfryed]

It wasn't sarcasm, sorry, I didn't explain myself very well. Imagine how bad it must feel if all those designers and writers and artists, many of them die-hard Alliance and Night Elf fans, many of them knowing what a bad and abusive dude Afrasiabi was, had to to put up with him forcing through the War of Thorns and they just have to deal with it because he's been at the company forever. A crappy story gets written because they're trying to find sense in this totally arse-ended top-level story decision. All the cinematics have been commissioned and they all just have to go with it. Suddenly, he's finally gone, and they can tell the story they want to tell, but only after this massive commitment to the work already done for BfA, and, after this really awful irreconcilable event has taken place that totally ruined the tone of the story for the next 2 planned expansions.

The point is: there could be a good story written with the burning of teldrasill as starting point. The team just was not competent enough to do so, and they ruined a normal plot.

From the "insiders" information, Talisen and whatever, Afrasiabi just dropped the teldrasil shit and was removed, everything done thereafter was not his doing, the crap night warrior story, Elne being a robot, and Tyrande forcefuly forgiving sylvanas was Danuser job.

Happens all the time in story telling. Someone prolly told Alex, "everyone loves character arcs" or some such.

If that was the case people would not let him make her a villain in the first place.

Rly, things aren't adding here, if he rly was hellbent in vengeance, he would not want redeem her.

[Ragedaug]

If that was the case people would not let him make her a villain in the first place.

Rly, things aren't adding here, if he rly was hellbent in vengeance, he would not want redeem her.

How can they be redeemed if they haven't previously done villainous things? You don't "redeem" people who only do good things. I'm suspecting you are just trolling now, because what you are saying isn't making much sense to me.

Why would Lucas make Vader a villain just to redeem him in RotJ?
Why would Martin make half of the characters in GoT villains just to redeem some of them later?

It's done because it makes for an interesting story. It's a basic story concept that's as old as folks have been telling stories. I'm not sure why this is the nit you are trying to pick with me.

[Syegfryed]

How can they be redeemed if they haven't previously done villainous things? You don't "redeem" people who only do good things. I'm suspecting you are just trolling now, because what you are saying isn't making much sense to me.

Again, if he wanted revenge against Kosak - who made Garrosh villain and kill him in the end - and make sylvanas a villain, why he would redeem her? it literally goes against the vengeance idea that people are spreading. Or you want to say he had a change of heart and stop wanting vengeance? or, the redemption was his vengeance somehow?


Now you see this nonsense and come up with the "i think you are trolling now" to make your point more valid somehow?

Why would Lucas make Vader a villain just to redeem him in RotJ?

Lucas had vengeance against another star wars writer? lmao, what kind of examples are those

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

The problem is the outcome here.

Lets pretend like those "leaks" really are true, which I don't believe. Just too convenient and coincidental, at an especially perfect time.

But the outcome would likely be the same anyway with Danuser writing so much cringe between the Blightcaller and Sylvanas. Even if the "sabotage" never occurred, we would likely be here anyway.

[Joyreym]

More guilty than Danuser or Afrasiabi is Blizzard that leaves its billion-dollar characters in the hands of one or another person when it should be a team and extremely meticulous planning. I don't believe that Afrasiabi wanted to ''sabotage'', he's just incompetent because they yearn for moments that shock without proper planning. Teldrassil could burn as long as the story had a purpose and credible consequences for it.

[azulaa]

i dont deny that danuser has done some damage to the overarching story BUT game design takes a long time.

assets, story, ui elements and so on need time, and to be ready to be shown to the public, in a year of relasing a expansion and 3 patches (8.1, 8.1.5, 8.2) in bfa, means they were working on those things a long time beforehand.

which means that (even if only) the overarching story of sl was already planned out in legion.
maybe not really set in stone but at least a good chunk of it. like how sylvanas worked for another entity to save her from death (which is a goal she has since wotlk), or how we will fight her as a raidboss and tyrande embraces elune and nearly kills sylvanas, etc.

even having those little things already set, and having to build assets - story - themes etc around it takes ressources, just to scrap them because they dont know how to tie this story together, really isnt an option to higher-ups (at least i'd imagine).

so having alex afrasiabi being the reason how the story is panning out, really isnt too far of a stretch.

i'm really hopeful that danuser has an ace up his sleeve and will write 'his' story better.
one point speaking for danuser (at least for me personally), would be, that i really liked the shadowlands-zones stories. (and a tad bit of hopium i suppose)
and i guess they would be under danuser, at least i would not think that those would be planned so far into the future that they could still be afrasiabi's work.

(english is not my native tounge, please excuse any spelling or grammatical mistakes, thank you ^.^)

[Nize]

i dont deny that danuser has done some damage to the overarching story BUT game design takes a long time.

assets, story, ui elements and so on need time, and to be ready to be shown to the public, in a year of relasing a expansion and 3 patches (8.1, 8.1.5, 8.2) in bfa, means they were working on those things a long time beforehand.

which means that (even if only) the overarching story of sl was already planned out in legion.
maybe not really set in stone but at least a good chunk of it. like how sylvanas worked for another entity to save her from death (which is a goal she has since wotlk), or how we will fight her as a raidboss and tyrande embraces elune and nearly kills sylvanas, etc.

even having those little things already set, and having to build assets - story - themes etc around it takes ressources, just to scrap them because they dont know how to tie this story together, really isnt an option to higher-ups (at least i'd imagine).

so having alex afrasiabi being the reason how the story is panning out, really isnt too far of a stretch.

i'm really hopeful that danuser has an ace up his sleeve and will write 'his' story better.
one point speaking for danuser (at least for me personally), would be, that i really liked the shadowlands-zones stories. (and a tad bit of hopium i suppose)
and i guess they would be under danuser, at least i would not think that those would be planned so far into the future that they could still be afrasiabi's work.

(english is not my native tounge, please excuse any spelling or grammatical mistakes, thank you ^.^)

One of those tweets already stated that Alex had set up Sylvanas as a villain, but he was gone before any resolution could be created. This means that the overall arching story of Shadowlands was NOT set in place by the time Alex left in early 2019 and it was up to Danuser to direct what happens to Sylvanas in Shadowlands. That suggests that Danuser was responsible for most of how Shadowlands played out with Sylv being centerpiece to everything. Sylvanas in BFA and Sylvanas in SL definitely feel like it was written by two complete different people. 8.3 marks a very sensible point where influence transition happened as that patch was largely empty. Shadowlands was Danuser's gig. The path to SL was made, but he had more than enough of an opportunity to take it in a far better direction.

[azulaa]

One of those tweets already stated that Alex had set up Sylvanas as a villain, but he was gone before any resolution could be created. This means that the overall arching story of Shadowlands was NOT set in place by the time Alex left in early 2019 and it was up to Danuser to direct what happens to Sylvanas in Shadowlands. That suggests that Danuser was responsible for most of how Shadowlands played out with Sylv being centerpiece to everything. Sylvanas in BFA and Sylvanas in SL definitely feel like it was written by two complete different people. 8.3 marks a very sensible point where influence transition happened as that patch was largely empty. Shadowlands was Danuser's gig. The path to SL was made, but he had more than enough of an opportunity to take it in a far better direction.

would you mind linking me that tweet?
i'd like to see it so i can maybe reassess my initial standing

[LorDC]

One of those tweets already stated that Alex had set up Sylvanas as a villain, but he was gone before any resolution could be created. This means that the overall arching story of Shadowlands was NOT set in place by the time Alex left in early 2019 and it was up to Danuser to direct what happens to Sylvanas in Shadowlands. That suggests that Danuser was responsible for most of how Shadowlands played out with Sylv being centerpiece to everything. Sylvanas in BFA and Sylvanas in SL definitely feel like it was written by two complete different people. 8.3 marks a very sensible point where influence transition happened as that patch was largely empty. Shadowlands was Danuser's gig. The path to SL was made, but he had more than enough of an opportunity to take it in a far better direction.

The problem thing is, with the way expansion development works, "setting Sylvanas in a villain path" had to have happened in late 2016 - early 2017. It is 4 years before they fired Afrasiabi and 3 years before Danuser got to position where he could really define WoW's narrative.

[Nize]

The problem thing is, with the way expansion development works, "setting Sylvanas in a villain path" had to have happened in late 2016 - early 2017. It is 4 years before they fired Afrasiabi and 3 years before Danuser got to position where he could really define WoW's narrative.

Yes, but if they had no resolution, it means that Shadowlands story wasn't set in stone. That was my entire point. If SL overarching story was done by then, then Sylvanas resolution would ALSO have been done being such a cornerstone story beat for Shadowlands, yet that goes against what the tweet was saying where they had no ending to how Alex planned to end the Sylvanas story, so it was up to Danuser to set her story straight in Shadowlands, of which he went the worst of ways (redemption + not her all along). And it reeks of two different writers taking one character in different directions. I also doubt that the lack of characterization, yet "he was behind everything" in Jailer can be credited to Alex. I doubt that 9.2's inclusive Arbiter out of nowhere was an Alex decision as well.0

Tweet I'm referring to: https://twitter.com/TaliesinEvitel/s...33446968598534

You guys also overestimate how much is set in stone in production. Even the framework can shift nearly 2 years prior to launch. WoW has done this many times, WoD being most notable. Recent examples can also include Bwomsamdi being added due to popularity.

Also, reminder. Alex was off the team already long before he was fired. Early 2019 is a more accurate point to where he was no longer influencing future development. Too late for BFA. Not so for SL.

I do believe people deserve second chances. I have no vendetta against Danuser, but I won't excuse him of Shadowlands' blunders. He's a poor writer and I hope he improves with the next expansion.

[Cracked]

Now i look at bit different at Steve Danuser

Good for you. I don't.

[Ardenaso]

Afrasiabi just seems like a scapegoat. I suppose we'll see in 10.0.

there's a theory I like that Kosak ruined Garrosh so out of spite, Afrasiabi ruined Sylvanas

- - - Updated - - -

Even if Sylv was sabotaged, the better course of action would be to just roll with it at this point and aim to do better with other/new characters in the future. Or if you really must, just outright retcon it out of existence. Trying to pass the blame or trying to make all the pieces fit back together after alex supposedly intentionally broke it results in...well the current mess we have.

Arthas has been dead for like a decade but Arthas and Lichking stuff still sells. Sylv being dead wouldn't stop body pillow sales. The idea that a character needs new content with them in it to remain popular is falacious.

just let the Jailer win and then make the bronze dragonflight go back to vanilla to restart WoW, and make it a Warcraft 3 purist WoW

[kaminaris]

I do believe people deserve second chances. I have no vendetta against Danuser, but I won't excuse him of Shadowlands' blunders. He's a poor writer and I hope he improves with the next expansion.

He would have done so by now. The thing is, it doesn't really matter how long he was/is at helm. He worked with various stories before, that means he had plenty of opportunities to self-improve but he didn't. He could have also analyzed past story and take notes upon them, he didn't. He could have also learned from mistake of others, he didn't.

Even tho i stopped playing this below bedrock expansion i still follow news/story and let me tell you something, average writer could come up with better story while playing sudoku on a "throne". He clearly lacks talent and was put up this position cause they had noone else.

The basics and fundamentals are still missing, like why tf should we care about nipless baldie... after so long.

[Ragedaug]

Again, if he wanted revenge against Kosak - who made Garrosh villain and kill him in the end - and make sylvanas a villain, why he would redeem her? it literally goes against the vengeance idea that people are spreading. Or you want to say he had a change of heart and stop wanting vengeance? or, the redemption was his vengeance somehow?

Now you see this nonsense and come up with the "i think you are trolling now" to make your point more valid somehow?

Lucas had vengeance against another star wars writer? lmao, what kind of examples are those

What are you talking about? I never said Alex was revenging the other Blizzard employees. I've been pretty clear that all of his doing is due to his incompetence. Maybe now you can understand why it feels you are trolling me. You quote me, then argue against someone else.

[Syegfryed]

What are you talking about? I never said Alex was revenging the other Blizzard employees. I've been pretty clear that all of his doing is due to his incompetence. Maybe now you can understand why it feels you are trolling me. You quote me, then argue against someone else.

First of all, who quote me first was you, so the only one who could possible be doing something like this is yourself.

The whole point of this thread is to "expose" some shit that was happening in blizzard.

either way, even if the "gossip" isn't real, and he is not taking revenge of someone else, not all of "this" is his doing, he was taken off from wow team after BfA lauch, Shadowlands story and sylvanas redemption is Danuser work.

[TheVaryag]

Hey folks,

it’s crazy shit, that’s going on, imo. Watched this Taliesin video a few mins ago:

Afrasiabi's Sylvanas Sabotage : The Truth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN0CzpbZAbM

Thats CRAZY shit. And honestly i do not think Taliesin had done that for clicks or something like that. He sounds rather credible/honest to me, in the video part about not hurting someone of the 4 mentioned sources.

Tbh i can totally imagine this. And it sheds a completely different light on Danusers work, even when considering the bad SL narrative. Since i also already experienced such things in such companies, i know how hard it can be, to repair the damage other ppl did to a product.

And just as a final note: I wether have something to do with Taliesin, nor i am that huge Youtube influencer watcher or something. I watch some Bellular or Asmongold vids here and there, and that’s it.

Just thought i share this (imo) rather interesting and crazy stuff with MMOC.

(if you don’t know what this post should be about, just watch the above mentioned video)

This is the same thing like with people thinknig Chris Metzen was da bees knees of the story... it was also during his time we got Cata, Mists, Warlords n Legion too I think and the story was never a focus.

But the most important thing to mention on Deneuser, Is his idea for WoWs universe is that 'everything has a purpose, its all designed with meaning' is total BS. Thats a BORING universe to live in, get philosophical if you want, but I dont think our world has a fate, or destiny or a predetermined future. The fact humans are alive is random happenstance, doesn't mean we shouldn't enjoy it while we can and make the best out of it.

Imagine if we all found out, that our family members, friends etc. died to be fuel for some cosmic whateverthefuck gods? We're basically fertilized for their dimensional gardens. And that actually, dark matter and matter have cosmic zereth whatevers that regulate the flow of both and the dark matter one was broken, so therefore we got more matter than dark matter so therefore we live and it was all a stroke of genious from some benevolent god that "Broke the system"...again, thats boring, thats too perfect, that's too "This was menth to be/was predetermined" as that takes away agency of everyone and everything then. Nothing you do is able to change the future, it's all menth to be regardless.

That's how Deneuser's future of WoW sounds to me, and its boring.

[zysis]

This is all utter bs. Here's a HUGE hint for many of you; BFA was not even a thought when Shadowlands was being planned. Long before Legion.

[Sithalos]

I might of been more inclined to believe Afrasiabi had something to do with Sylvanas being shit, if they didn't cite sexism as the reason. Give me a fucking break. You couldn't make my eyes roll back any deeper into my skull if your life depended on it.

Also Lol@ T&E being a credible source for anything.

[Doffen]

Let's blame it all on one guy since he is hated anyway.

Thats how it looks. Despite his "hands-on" attitude in Blizzard, he was one of those that made WoW great to begin with.

[Kharli]

This is all utter bs. Here's a HUGE hint for many of you; BFA was not even a thought when Shadowlands was being planned. Long before Legion.

ok, so.. then why did we not get shadowlands BEFORE BFA? hm? please do explain that.