The boosting is back

[Relapses]

I hate that wow still has a monthly sub, on top of buying each expansion, on top of micro transactions out the wazoo, on top of it also being P2W.

There are just too many better options out there now for wow to maintain this business model, especially Considering the quality of product they have given the past several years.

If we spoke more often you'd hear me complaining about the sub as well in today's market, but the only time we seemingly get together are in these P2W threads which might count for your anecdotal experiences.

I can't see Blizzard turning off the money faucet now, even if the current model is wrought with implications of P2W and other RMT-adjacent unsavory aspects. Ultimately, to me, it comes down to whether these choices have had a negative impact on the overall design of the game. I personally think their obsession with engagement metrics has had a far more negative impact on the game's design than the token; but because gold is such an integral part of how WoW works on a basic level I see a lot of people writing off these poor design choices as some kind of nefarious master plan by Blizzard to coax people into buying tokens. This, to me, feels like a cop out. Instead of talking about why certain design choices were made from a position of good faith people completely write things off and blame the token's existence. It's an easy way to just dismiss design decisions entirely and puts all the blame squarely one single feature. (Token bad = game bad. Remove token = good game again.) The result is that we end up arguing for dozens of pages about what P2W constitutes instead of the reasons why Blizzard does what it does. That's the real problem here, imo.

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Why would I lie? I genuinely can not find a reason an asset would stay nearly-perfectly at 300k for multiple months (EU price).

I was trying to justify it today and I couldn't.

I never accused you of lying. I told you that you're wrong. You've had a number of people (myself included) explain to you, in painful, excruciating detail, exactly why you're wrong and you just go back to, "well that's what Blizzard would want you to think." In your mind, the fact that Blizzard could be manipulating the token prices is enough proof that they are manipulating token prices. In reality, Blizzard cares so little about the token that they've never once intervened in the 6+ years its existed. (They even let the token go out of stock once!) But that boring reality isn't enough for you, so you've constructed yourself a nice little reality-denying conspiracy theory to explain away the unexplainable.

[huth]

Believe me: I have tried to justify the marketing's take on this, and I can't help but realize that nothing in an open traded exchange behaves like that even if we're talking about the most boring thing you can imagine (like: textiles).

E.g. today I was like: "MAYBE people even out the price because: some buy it for gold and some buy it for game time" but then I realized: wait a second: nothing that makes sense in an open exchange makes "sense" in price.

Because it isn't an open traded exchange. Your basic premise is incorrect.

It's strictly an unidirectional exchange: Player A gives Blizz money for token. Player B gives player A gold for token. Player A can only get gold or keep the token. Player B can only keep gold or get token. Neither of them can ever get money out of it, nor can Player A use the token for anything other than selling for gold, or Player B for anything other than gametime or BlizzShop credit.

[neik]

1. Nothing has changed.
2. Proper ban on boosters.
3. Level 1 crooks still having at it, rebranded, less volume, less frequency.
4. Delete token. (Got hacked? Consider not using your wow credentials)
5. Oh wait..

Glad I'm just checking the new patch alone.

[epigramx]

They even let the token go out of stock once!

Player A can only get gold or keep the token. Player B can only keep gold or get token.

If both of those were true, how do you explain that in practice 98%+ of the time the token is available to buy and at almost exactly 300K (EU)?

But let's leave it here; I suggest we ask a professional economist; they'll probably easily derive what side is true.

[Mysterymask]

If both of those were true, how do you explain that in practice 98%+ of the time the token is available to buy and at almost exactly 300K (EU)?

But let's leave it here; I suggest we ask a professional economist; they'll probably easily derive what side is true.

The market is fairly steady and the demand is that high

Also ROFL "hello professional economist can you come settle this argument on a game forum for me? It's really important....what do you mean $1000 an hour counseling fee"

[epigramx]

If both of those were true, how do you explain that in practice 98%+ of the time the token is available to buy and at almost exactly 300K (EU)?

But let's leave it here; I suggest we ask a professional economist; they'll probably easily derive what side is true.

Oh and by the way, if they developed an algorithm that only "sells" the token as long as the price stays at almost exactly 300k (EU), why is that open market based as the marketing says?

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The market is fairly steady and the demand is that high

Also ROFL "hello professional economist can you come settle this argument on a game forum for me? It's really important....what do you mean $1000 an hour counseling fee"

If the demand is that high, the probability the demand is almost exactly 50% on the side that buys it with gold and almost exactly 50% on the side that buys it with cash almost 0 because of the chaotic nature of human behavior.

Also don't be surprised of what economists will analyze if real money is involved and this involves a lot of real money.

[Raelbo]

I buy the token from Blizzard.

A fact no one has denied

The token is what gives me the advantage.

Why are you so afraid of acknowledging that the gold you get from a token is acquired from other players (as opposed to generated by the game)?
Why are you so afraid of acknowledging that the things you buy with that gold that you claim give you this advantage are provided by players (as opposed to the game)?

You are clearly dodging this. And it's telling.

The bottom line is that while you might argue that to some arbitrary player within WoW, where that power comes from is irrelevant, when it comes to the impact it has on the game (ie everyone else not involved in the token transaction) this becomes a very important distinction.

If Blizzard was selling gold directly to players without the token mechanism, that would be massively impactful on everyone in the game. But because they are using the token, the impact on everyone else is non-existent.

It's pretty clear that you and I are not going to agree on what we call P2W. What is mystifying though is why you think P2W, as you choose to define it, is even a problem.

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I hate that wow still has a monthly sub, on top of buying each expansion, on top of micro transactions out the wazoo, on top of it also being P2W.

While I don't share your disdain for the triple funding model you have outlined above (sub + expansions + uT), I can at least understand where you're coming from.

However, given how you choose to define P2W, I really can't understand what there is to hate. It just makes no sense.

[klaps_05]

I love streamers going all out on advertisement now in their twitch channels for buying items from boosters not even on their realm. I guess the guild can go and pay on his realm, oh wait, isnt that a community? anyway...

[NineSpine]

A fact no one has denied

Why are you so afraid of acknowledging that the gold you get from a token is acquired from other players (as opposed to generated by the game)?

Because it doesn't change that the person with the token has an advantage.

Why are you so afraid of acknowledging that the things you buy with that gold that you claim give you this advantage are provided by players (as opposed to the game)?

Because it doesn't change that the person with the token has an advantage.

You are clearly dodging this. And it's telling.

The bottom line is that while you might argue that to some arbitrary player within WoW, where that power comes from is irrelevant, when it comes to the impact it has on the game (ie everyone else not involved in the token transaction) this becomes a very important distinction.

If Blizzard was selling gold directly to players without the token mechanism, that would be massively impactful on everyone in the game. But because they are using the token, the impact on everyone else is non-existent.

That's not true. It increases the demand for boosts, which has two tangible effects on all players:

1. It increases the cost of boosts, which in turn impacts the value of gold broadly.
2. It increases the volume of boosts, which limits the pool of guilds that don't boost. There are tons of stories of people being pressured to help perform boosts by their guilds.
3. It creates a much larger class of players who are ahead because of boosts, which impacts your ability to find groups as you are now competing with boosters for spots in groups.
4. Do I need to describe the impact on PvP?
5. From a basic game design perspective, it makes players feel like they are wasting their time if they play without boosts.
6. It creates perverse incentives for Blizzard in how they design the game. They are now pressured to design the game to make more people buy the token.

It's pretty clear that you and I are not going to agree on what we call P2W. What is mystifying though is why you think P2W, as you choose to define it, is even a problem.

The way I choose to define it is exactly the first definition you gave: An in game item which is purchased with real money and grants someone an advantage.

You want to add all these caveats that aren't in the definition.

[Raelbo]

Because it doesn't change that the person with the token has an advantage.

It does change the nature of the advantage though. I think you know this, hence why you keep dodging.

That's not true. It increases the demand for boosts, which has two tangible effects on all players:

1. It increases the cost of boosts, which in turn impacts the value of gold broadly.
2. It increases the volume of boosts, which limits the pool of guilds that don't boost. There are tons of stories of people being pressured to help perform boosts by their guilds.
3. It creates a much larger class of players who are ahead because of boosts, which impacts your ability to find groups as you are now competing with boosters for spots in groups.

Those are somewhat tenuous claims. Of course I understand the basic logic behind it, but to be blunt, you're jumping to lazy conclusions that lack critical and holistic thinking. In the very least, I am pretty sure that even if true, you're massively hyperbolizing. All you've provided is a lot of conjecture with zero credible data to back it up.

Probably the biggest error in your argumentation (and it has been a constant theme throughout this thread) is that you're cherry picking. You consider information that helps your narrative, but ignore the information that contradicts it. If Blizzard was selling gold directly to players, with no token system, then my conjecture would likely be similar to yours. But because we're talking about the token system, making a conscious choice to consider only the token sellers is making the choice to only consider half the picture.

Every token results in a second transaction, with a player spending their gold to buy the token. So sure, it's great for someone like you to smugly proclaim that surely some people are buying tokens to get gold to pay for boosts. But did you ever consider that without tokens, those paying gold for them might equally be spending that gold on boosts? Did you consider that any potential inflationary effects on gold introduced by token sellers, would be equally counteracted by the deflationary efforts on gold as a result of token buyers?

Furthermore, speaking to your inferred claim that token buyers make up a significant part of the boosted playerbase, I have never seen any evidence thereof. I realise it's a commonly held belief on forums like MMO-C, but I strongly suspect it's a myth, propped up entirely by nothing more than repetition by people who actually don't know anything.

• Every single comment on the subject that I have seen, made by a someone claiming to be a booster, is that their customers didn't source gold using tokens.
• I have never seen anyone on this site claiming that they have personally bought tokens in order to buy a boost.

In short, you're scapegoating, without evidence, and going on pure conjecture, customised to suit your narrative.

4. Do I need to describe the impact on PvP?

Again, I understand the temptation to draw lazy conclusions here. I also understand the temptation to blame tokens for ones personal failures in PvP. But I am not convinced that all that much would change. It's still a closed system. You don't get beaten in PvP because someone bought a token. You get beaten because there are better players than you out there. Boosts simply affect who teams up with whom.

Here are likely the facts you consider:

• Pro player activity in PvP is increased because they are after gold
• Weak players are achieving higher results because pros are helping them

Think about these important facts that you failed to consider:

• A boosted player is going to weaken the pro team.
• Without boosts, a lot of those weaker players probably wouldn't bother with PvP.
• This would increase the probability of meeting a stronger team.

Like above, when you consider the full picture, instead of cherry picking, you see that there are additional forces at work.

And all this before we even consider whether (as above) tokens even play a significant role in the amount of boosting happening.

5. From a basic game design perspective, it makes players feel like they are wasting their time if they play without boosts.

Sorry to blunt about it, but that's just an incredibly stupid attitude to adopt. I am not even sure that there are legitimately players out there who even feel way. And if they are, I think their problems run a lot deeper than the knowledge that some random strangers are getting boosted.

Stop pretending that getting boosted represents, somehow, a superior, optimal or desirable way to play the game. If anything, it's the complete opposite. It's a poor simulacrum of actually playing the game the way it was ideally intended to be played - and something I would guess most people only do because doing it the proper way is not an option for them.

6. It creates perverse incentives for Blizzard in how they design the game. They are now pressured to design the game to make more people buy the token.

Such as? I haven't seen a single thing in the game that I would attribute to Blizzard trying to push tokens. This is classic conspiracy theory thinking on your part.

The way I choose to define it is exactly the first definition you gave: An in game item which is purchased with real money and grants someone an advantage.

Still being dishonest I see. First off, that wasn't "exactly the first definition" I gave. Secondly, I was pretty clear that none of those definitions should be viewed in isolation (you're cherry picking, still). They should be viewed collectively.

But I am not going have this argument with you. Aside from the fact that we've been instructed to not argue semantics anymore, I already articulated the argument just fine, and repeating myself just to have 95% of what I say ignored, and my words twisted by a dishonest liar with dubious motives is not something I care for anyway.

[NineSpine]

It does change the nature of the advantage though. I think you know this, hence why you keep dodging.



Those are somewhat tenuous claims. Of course I understand the basic logic behind it, but to be blunt, you're jumping to lazy conclusions that lack critical and holistic thinking. In the very least, I am pretty sure that even if true, you're massively hyperbolizing. All you've provided is a lot of conjecture with zero credible data to back it up.

Probably the biggest error in your argumentation (and it has been a constant theme throughout this thread) is that you're cherry picking. You consider information that helps your narrative, but ignore the information that contradicts it. If Blizzard was selling gold directly to players, with no token system, then my conjecture would likely be similar to yours. But because we're talking about the token system, making a conscious choice to consider only the token sellers is making the choice to only consider half the picture.

Every token results in a second transaction, with a player spending their gold to buy the token. So sure, it's great for someone like you to smugly proclaim that surely some people are buying tokens to get gold to pay for boosts. But did you ever consider that without tokens, those paying gold for them might equally be spending that gold on boosts? Did you consider that any potential inflationary effects on gold introduced by token sellers, would be equally counteracted by the deflationary efforts on gold as a result of token buyers?

Furthermore, speaking to your inferred claim that token buyers make up a significant part of the boosted playerbase, I have never seen any evidence thereof. I realise it's a commonly held belief on forums like MMO-C, but I strongly suspect it's a myth, propped up entirely by nothing more than repetition by people who actually don't know anything.

• Every single comment on the subject that I have seen, made by a someone claiming to be a booster, is that their customers didn't source gold using tokens.
• I have never seen anyone on this site claiming that they have personally bought tokens in order to buy a boost.

In short, you're scapegoating, without evidence, and going on pure conjecture, customised to suit your narrative.



Again, I understand the temptation to draw lazy conclusions here. I also understand the temptation to blame tokens for ones personal failures in PvP. But I am not convinced that all that much would change. It's still a closed system. You don't get beaten in PvP because someone bought a token. You get beaten because there are better players than you out there. Boosts simply affect who teams up with whom.

Here are likely the facts you consider:

• Pro player activity in PvP is increased because they are after gold
• Weak players are achieving higher results because pros are helping them

Think about these important facts that you failed to consider:

• A boosted player is going to weaken the pro team.
• Without boosts, a lot of those weaker players probably wouldn't bother with PvP.
• This would increase the probability of meeting a stronger team.

Like above, when you consider the full picture, instead of cherry picking, you see that there are additional forces at work.

And all this before we even consider whether (as above) tokens even play a significant role in the amount of boosting happening.



Sorry to blunt about it, but that's just an incredibly stupid attitude to adopt. I am not even sure that there are legitimately players out there who even feel way. And if they are, I think their problems run a lot deeper than the knowledge that some random strangers are getting boosted.

Stop pretending that getting boosted represents, somehow, a superior, optimal or desirable way to play the game. If anything, it's the complete opposite. It's a poor simulacrum of actually playing the game the way it was ideally intended to be played - and something I would guess most people only do because doing it the proper way is not an option for them.

Such as? I haven't seen a single thing in the game that I would attribute to Blizzard trying to push tokens. This is classic conspiracy theory thinking on your part.

Still being dishonest I see. First off, that wasn't "exactly the first definition" I gave. Secondly, I was pretty clear that none of those definitions should be viewed in isolation (you're cherry picking, still). They should be viewed collectively.

But I am not going have this argument with you. Aside from the fact that we've been instructed to not argue semantics anymore, I already articulated the argument just fine, and repeating myself just to have 95% of what I say ignored, and my words twisted by a dishonest liar with dubious motives is not something I care for anyway.

I started responding to this, but I'm no longer going to entertain this weird, smug, condescending way you take ten pages to say what could be summed up in five sentences. I spent years grading the papers of grad school students that had nothing to say but a lot of ways to bloat their writing, and they paid me to do that and I'm not getting paid here.

I'll engage with you further when you learn how to communicate in a way that doesn't feel entirely rooted in narcissism.

[Raelbo]

I started responding to this, but I'm no longer going to entertain this weird, smug, condescending way you take ten pages to say what could be summed up in five sentences.

It's not my fault you need things that should be obvious spelled out in great detail.

I spent years grading the papers of grad school students that had nothing to say but a lot of ways to bloat their writing, and they paid me to do that and I'm not getting paid here.

Then really, you should be holding your own arguments to a higher standard. Honestly, I think if you weren't so hell bent on trying to prove you're right, and considered the arguments being made, you'd benefit greatly. Also, you have been thoroughly dishonest throughout this debate, with the awful habit of taking things I say, cherry picking and then distorting my words. That shit is what politicians do. It's not befitting of academics (or anyone interested in understanding the truth).

I'll engage with you further when you learn how to communicate in a way that doesn't feel entirely rooted in narcissism.

Hello pot.

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Sounds like your limitation of comprehension is at play more than anything if it makes no sense to you.

Maybe if, instead of devoting all your energy to insisting that WoW is P2W, you told us what is wrong with being P2W (as you understand P2W to be), I'd have something to work with.

This is only an issue because you refuse to adhere to the accepted meaning of the term, and insist on going with your own definition, which, as far as I can tell, from the little you say (aside from making snide one liners) makes P2W rather benign.

[NineSpine]

It's not my fault you need things that should be obvious spelled out in great detail.

Then really, you should be holding your own arguments to a higher standard. Honestly, I think if you weren't so hell bent on trying to prove you're right, and considered the arguments being made, you'd benefit greatly. Also, you have been thoroughly dishonest throughout this debate, with the awful habit of taking things I say, cherry picking and then distorting my words. That shit is what politicians do. It's not befitting of academics (or anyone interested in understanding the truth).

Hello pot.

You aren't making arguments. You are finding condescendingly overcomplicated ways to throw red herring after red herring. The vast majority of your first year grad school papers you keep posting are just personal insults and repeated declarations of your belief that you are right. Occasionally, you sprinkle in a distraction that isn't relevant like arguing that an advantage isn't really an advantage if it involves other players

The first definition you provided: "in online gaming, the practice of buying in-game items that give a player a very big advantage over others"

The wow token is an in game item that provides an advantage. You have yet to provide anything approaching a counterpoint to that. You've just provided these weird post-modern novellas where you deconstruct the word "advantage".

[Soon-TM]

Like most concepts, "pay to win" is a spectrum, not a binary. Could probably save 30 pages of posts by talking about where WoW falls on that spectrum rather than insisted it is 100 or 0

The thing is that the P2W issue is very much binary: a given game either has P2W elements or it doesn't have them. Whether said elements are more or less important is an entirely different discussion, and I dare say that a much more productive one.

For example, there used to be a long time discussion in the PoE forums on whether paid stash tabs were P2W or not. The discussion ended when devs eventually admitted that paid stash tabs provided significant, (even if indirect) advantages.

However, while PoE has P2W elements, they still aren't (imo) as bad as WoW's. In PoE, you can buy all the stash tabs you want, but they won't help you get e.g. a Maven achievement, or any other endgame "prestigious" content. Buying paid boosts is pointless, since there are "educational" runs going on all the time, and finally, buying currency with RL money can get you banned - and last but not least, the company sells no items that could possibly be turned into in-game currency.

[kaminaris]

The thing is that the P2W issue is very much binary: a given game either has P2W elements or it doesn't have them. Whether said elements are more or less important is an entirely different discussion, and I dare say that a much more productive one.

For example, there used to be a long time discussion in the PoE forums on whether paid stash tabs were P2W or not. The discussion ended when devs eventually admitted that paid stash tabs provided significant, (even if indirect) advantages.

However, while PoE has P2W elements, they still aren't (imo) as bad as WoW's. In PoE, you can buy all the stash tabs you want, but they won't help you get e.g. a Maven achievement, or any other endgame "prestigious" content. Buying paid boosts is pointless, since there are "educational" runs going on all the time, and finally, buying currency with RL money can get you banned - and last but not least, the company sells no items that could possibly be turned into in-game currency.

Of course stash tabs will help you get achievements, with stash tabs you can realistically sell items, with currency you get from selling items you buy more powerful gear.
Without premium stash tab it would be absolute insanity.

And as for P2W it depends on how you interpret it, but way to convert money into gold existed since vanilla and non-against-tos way ever since TCG cards got added.
That being said, the moment someone will even offer boost, you have already lost. That is my take on it. You can at very least pay to be less of a looser. You will never win, no matter how much money you pour in.

If anything can be attributed as blantant p2w it would be BoE, that shit should have been removed long time ago.

[Raelbo]

I'm not having the same conversation with another somebody who refuses to read past a 5th grade level and wants to play obtuse and sealion.

I've been very clear with every one of my posts. If you still find yourself confused feel free to reread my posts in this thread until you grasp it, but I can't be asked to hold your hand for the sake of doing so.

I have read through your "contributions". Not hard since you haven't said much.

You have been clear on the following:
WoW is P2W.
You don't like WoW because it's P2W.

What you haven't bothered to do is expand on why.

Like our other charming friend, @NineSpine, it seems that you struggle with accepting the possibility that other viewpoints exist and thus prefer to take the route of being insulting and rude. Your loss.

[MoanaLisa]

The thing is that the P2W issue is very much binary...

Pay to win is subject to personal interpretation; subjective not objective. It's not possible for anything like that to be binary in nature. I understand the implication is that your definition is the correct one but that's more in the nature of what you believe, not what people accept as established fact. It's one reason why the arguments over it in Warcraft are facile and pointless. If a 100% factual definition of what pay-to-win is was agreed to by all it would change nothing in the game. Just about the only benefit of that would be a finale to this endless parade of threads that's been going on ever since the sparkle pony. You don't have to read much of this thread before it's clear that what's driving this is no real concern about WoW being or not being P2W. It's a reason to fight. It's bullshit.

[Raelbo]

However, while PoE has P2W elements, they still aren't (imo) as bad as WoW's. In PoE, you can buy all the stash tabs you want, but they won't help you get e.g. a Maven achievement, or any other endgame "prestigious" content.

I personally don't see anything "prestigious" about getting, for example, a mythic Sylvanas boost. The "prestige" associated with "prestigious" content is entirely contingent on when you completed it.

What guilds like Echo, Limit and Method achieve is prestigious. I don't think I need to explain why. But when Johnny Random sits in Stormwind or Orgrimmar 3 months after the raid came out, riding Vengeance and sporting the "Breaker of Chains" title, no one is going to give a shit.

If acquiring titles, completing achievements and expanding your mount collection is something important to you, by all means go ahead and pay for a boost. But if it's prestige you're after, you're wasting your money.

buying currency with RL money can get you banned

Why do you think this is this a good thing?

I think what a lot of you guys fail to understand is why companies ban players from buying stuff in-game for RL money. It's like in real life, if you buy a stolen stereo, you can be arrested. That's not because there is anything wrong with buying a stereo. It's entirely about the fact that it was stolen.

and last but not least, the company sells no items that could possibly be turned into in-game currency.

Again, why do you think this is this a good thing? By failing to provide their players with a safe alternative to get what they want, they're forcing that market underground and creating the perfect environment for 3rd party goldsellers etc, whose activities harm the game, to thrive.

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Pay to win is subject to personal interpretation; subjective not objective. It's not possible for anything like that to be binary in nature. I understand the implication is that your definition is the correct one but that's more in the nature of what you believe, not what people accept as established fact. It's one reason why the arguments over it in Warcraft are facile and pointless. If a 100% factual definition of what pay-to-win is was agreed to by all it would change nothing in the game. Just about the only benefit of that would be a finale to this endless parade of threads that's been going on ever since the sparkle pony. You don't have to read much of this thread before it's clear that what's driving this is no real concern about WoW being or not being P2W. It's a reason to fight. It's bullshit.

If nothing else, trying to argue, for example that the token is bad because it's P2W, is utterly pointless unless everyone shares a common understanding of what P2W means. And yeah, I agree. When someone decides to bring P2W, as an argument, into a discussion like this, it's done on purpose, to create a fight. Maybe I am stupid to take the bait and call them on it, but at the same time I think it deserves to be called out.

[huth]

If nothing else, trying to argue, for example that the token is bad because it's P2W, is utterly pointless unless everyone shares a common understanding of what P2W means. And yeah, I agree. When someone decides to bring P2W, as an argument, into a discussion like this, it's done on purpose, to create a fight. Maybe I am stupid to take the bait and call them on it, but at the same time I think it deserves to be called out.

Discussing the token only makes sense in the realm of whether we'd be better off without it. And having lived through that time, i'm gonna go with a resounding No on that.

So far, nobody has managed a satisfactory answer to why 3rd party sellers are somehow not P2W, and i have doubts such is even possible. The question whether we should have P2W is then irrelevant since that's an impossible proposition.

[klaps_05]

Main problem with wow is people being massive snowflakes. Most people think just because they killed X mythic boss, got glad or looted Y item they have somehow achieved some tremendously difficult task that mere mortals cant. Then they see people paying for what they spend 6 months trying to do and feel upset.