Sepulcher of the First Ones World Race

[bandit1488]

Looks like Mrnig4000 magically fixed his stream right after the boss finally dies, stay classy Max.

[Relapses]

Don't forget to renew your sub or you won't able to tell him how much you love him.

I have a gifted sub and probably won't renew it. I've said in other posts that I don't even like the guy that much. I like the guild because they're one of the better things to happen to WoW in awhile but I understand and don't blame anybody for disliking Max.

[Caprias]

What a terrible day to have eyes.

[kaminaris]

This whole race been a shitshow even if you didn't watch it. Decided to give it a single fuck after people around me been memeing about liQuit.

Max being arrogant is nothing new, drama was expected but not to so much extent. Whole raid tier is a joke, fitting end for worst expansions in history of all games. If these guys struggled so much, typical guilds gonna break faster than house of cards until whole scene dries out.

Tbh i wished someone else won, literally anyone else that liquit or echo. But if i were to chose from these two, i'd go with echo.
Would be nice to see Pieces outplay them for once.

[Kuruption]

Still think one of the best kill vids was Paragon's Al'Akir. Still makes me chuckle.

[OokOok]

Paragon's prime was very short. First win was TOGC, then ICC, then won the first two tiers of Cata, then done. Came back and got WF Highmaul later but that was it. In contrast, Method got virtually every world first starting from MOP through now, with the exception of Highmaul and the two Limit wins (and if you count Blood Legion getting end boss in HoF).

I'm a huge Paragon fan (likely why I tend to root against Method) and many view them as having an incredibly high peak, but they just don't have the longevity Method/Echo has.

I get what you're saying. But for the era, before splits....spending 700M gil on boes and loot...a screen packed full of 60 weakauras... Paragon was far above the rest on a lot of really hard fights. H LK/ H Rag are without a doubt some of the harder and most epic fights they've ever made. The only reason Blizz makes fights like Mythic KJ/Gul'dan now is because they've said they now have to design fights around DBM/Weakaura so they make fights to try and get around that.

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Exploiting bugs to get kills were punished a lot harder before, guess blizzard got a lot more lenient these days.

"before" "these days"

That's just not true LOL
Nihilum exploited their way to world first all the way until they finally got banned on LK. THis has been proven multiple times, Between Vanilla > Wotlk blizzard just didn't have a hold on exploiting. In fact the first exploit bans of top guilds weren't until WOTLK with Exodus on Yogg saron and Nihilum on Lich king. Then the next big guild ban was Cata with the lfr exploit. Despite that guilds still exploited MULTIPLE bosses in cata and didn't get banned, specifically in Blackwing descent and i'm not talking about paragon stacking druids.

Guilds have always exploited, they've always abused bugs and said "We didn't know" Blizzard just tosses a coin if they decide they'll do something or not. The only diff is now it's public and people can watch the guilds do them

[Bakis]

Paragon wiped the floor with them in their primes of raiding.

Word, finnish only not some guild picking players from here and there.
The small size of the player pool that they could reqruit within make them in my books by a pretty long stretch the most impressive guild.

[Shurkien]

I have a gifted sub and probably won't renew it. I've said in other posts that I don't even like the guy that much. I like the guild because they're one of the better things to happen to WoW in awhile but I understand and don't blame anybody for disliking Max.

Didnt you say that you are not a Liquid fan and that you are totally unbiased bcs of it?

[Relapses]

Didnt you say that you are not a Liquid fan and that you are totally unbiased bcs of it?

I'd love to see where I said that (because I haven't). I'm pretty open about the fact that I'm a NA fan and a supporter of the Liquid org because for the longest time our region had absolutely zero RWF representation. I've said that I don't care for Max as a player because I do not agree with everything he says.

[Civciv]

Lmao this explains the obsession... 36 year old dude sounding like an 8 year old at a celebrity meet event.

fucking lol

[Skillurs]

"After Method killed the boss we instantly called the raid for the day, we weren't even close to a kill at that point and if I remember correctly our best try was around 16% at the time. Our performance was not at the level we can play the game at, so there was no point in grinding the boss while we had just lost the kill and everyone was feeling down. We did go easier on raiding times after that as some the members wanted to return to their normal schedule."

Quote from a Paragon interview after Method killed Blackhand. Thought it was fairly relevant when discussing Liquid's actions this tier.

I mean kinda different to go a bit easier on the progress when livestreaming and things weren't as big and they slowed down AFTER Method killed it.

While Liquit quit the race and went bowling before Echo had even killed the boss. Even the Echo players said it felt weird to win the race before they even downed the boss. They should have just said they were flying home after Echo downed it and that would be completely understandable, but no Max started looking for bowling alleys before Echo even killed it.

[gHouLwiNg]

Lmao this explains the obsession... 36 year old dude sounding like an 8 year old at a celebrity meet event.

LMAO, the amount of cringe, especially for that "of all time". What time? Jesus Christ..

[Barzotti]

"Pls notice me senpai UwU"

Fucking top kek

[FiveDkp]

You can tell the amount of people in here who have never dayraided or dayraid before.

"After Method killed the boss we instantly called the raid for the day, we weren't even close to a kill at that point and if I remember correctly our best try was around 16% at the time. Our performance was not at the level we can play the game at, so there was no point in grinding the boss while we had just lost the kill and everyone was feeling down. We did go easier on raiding times after that as some the members wanted to return to their normal schedule."

Quote from a Paragon interview after Method killed Blackhand. Thought it was fairly relevant when discussing Liquid's actions this tier.

https://www.method.gg/mythic-silver-...w-with-paragon

Yeah, you have to remember half the people here only want to cut others down such as Max and will ignore anything that deters from that Narrative. I mean look at the pile on towards Relapses (and no doubt, no bans to those people will ever come out to those people). Fleks (Echo) rightfully pointed out on twitter especially at Feral Ist Druid that none of these people have a clue at what is going on.

I have recalled so many times when raiders from both guilds come on here and tell MMO-Champ that isn't the case, they end up repeating the same lies (I recall Tagzz, Liquid Hunter (he has some old bearded man avatar in the snow), Fragnance (Echo), Gingi and a few others)

Echo won deservingly especially with their WeakAura and Raid team being in sync to develop further strategies to increase DPS to get Jailer to his secret phase. The Torment WeakAura being the hallmark of it in Phase 2. Scripe beat Max hard here and outmanoeuvred him towards the later bosses.

Dayraiding takes a lot out of you and over 2-3 weeks. I'm not surprised that Liquid after losing World First and watching on how Echo were going with Jailer and where they weren't getting anywhere. It can take a huge mental toll on players who are expected and want to get world 1st compared to Pieces, Method and Skyline who didn't expect to get World First in the first place.

[epigramx]

No matter how much interest in RWF has grown in recent years

Nothing has grown, they just monetize it now for streaming while in the past they didn't. The overall players who care went down in pure unison with the subs.

[Azerate]

The Paragon vs. Echo discussion can be boiled down to the question of who do you consider better - someone who does a couple incredible feats that no one is even close to but then disappears fairly quickly, or someone who is consistently number one for years. One could say it's a question of quality vs. quantity, but that's not really that either, since Echo's quality is also top notch, it just isn't quite up to what Paragon did in a couple singular events. In the end it's probably impossible to point out who is flat out "better", but we can definitely say who has more wins overall, or who has more impressive feats.

I have recalled so many times when raiders from both guilds come on here and tell MMO-Champ that isn't the case, they end up repeating the same lies (I recall Tagzz, Liquid Hunter (he has some old bearded man avatar in the snow), Fragnance (Echo), Gingi and a few others)

The thing is, these people represent their guilds, so their comments on these situations have to be looked at with skepticism. Not because we should expect malicious intent, but actually the other way around - they often want to portray the reality in more positive light than it actually is in the spirit of sportsmanship. There's absolutely nothing wrong with forming your own opinions, as long as you don't obsess over it too much cause that's unhealthy.

some twitter screenshot

To be fair, out of the top guilds limit/liquid is probably still the most reasonable one to fanboy over. I mean yes, Maximum is a massive ego douche, but otherwise the guild doesn't really have that many controversial and scandalous things publicly known about them. Method/Echo had a literal sex scandal around them, and also still has at least one members who partook in 'lesser' scandals of erotic nature - though this is considered fine cause apparently he said sorry or something.

Still the best course of action is not to idolize anyone because you just don't really know these people and what goes on in their heads. One day something weird may fall out of the close and then all the stans will feel pretty disgusted with themselves. Respect people's feats and achievements, don't treat them as gods or role models, as that often ends up badly.

Nothing has grown, they just monetize it now for streaming while in the past they didn't. The overall players who care went down in pure unison with the subs.

Just the mmo-c threads on rwf are now like 5 times as long as they used to be in the past. Also, following this event has nothing to do with subbing to the game because that is not required. A lot of people who no longer play watch it.

[Barzotti]

The Paragon vs. Echo discussion can be boiled down to the question of who do you consider better - someone who does a couple incredible feats that no one is even close to but then disappears fairly quickly, or someone who is consistently number one for years. One could say it's a question of quality vs. quantity, but that's not really that either, since Echo's quality is also top notch, it just isn't quite up to what Paragon did in a couple singular events. In the end it's probably impossible to point out who is flat out "better", but we can definitely say who has more wins overall, or who has more impressive feats.

You're right. Raiding at the highest level has become increasingly complex, the preparation has become increasingly demanding - split runs, farm, mandatory addons/WA - so it's impossible to compare fairly guilds who basically played a different game. Comparing players or guilds from different eras and timelines is pointless, such as comparing Chamberlain with Jordan or James. And this kind of discussion is biased by the emotional attachment people have towards guilds. Maybe Paragon would have wiped the floor with Echo/Limit in 202, but it's impossible to find out.

[micwini]

Serious question why do people who have never participated in the race attempt to talk down to those who do based on their region. It's just weird. Once first happened liquid very clearly stopped caring and went back to normal raiding hours.

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They have changed name once?

Twice. Limit > complexity Limit > Liquid

[Dangg]

The Paragon vs. Echo discussion can be boiled down to the question of who do you consider better - someone who does a couple incredible feats that no one is even close to but then disappears fairly quickly, or someone who is consistently number one for years. One could say it's a question of quality vs. quantity, but that's not really that either, since Echo's quality is also top notch, it just isn't quite up to what Paragon did in a couple singular events. In the end it's probably impossible to point out who is flat out "better", but we can definitely say who has more wins overall, or who has more impressive feats.
.

A couple of feats and disappearing fairly quickly?? Paragon was around from WotLK until WoD (2008 - 2014). The way you describe them sounds like you talk about about SK Gaming (Curse) or KIN Raiders

[epigramx]

Just the mmo-c threads on rwf are now like 5 times as long as they used to be in the past. Also, following this event has nothing to do with subbing to the game because that is not required. A lot of people who no longer play watch it.

That's just the microcosm of the streaming audience though. In wotlk for example: millions more people cared to go to wowprogress.com and say "oh: those people did make top 5". Now: they just spend many more hours infighting in twitch and forums about it while they are fewer in total numbers.