[SPOILER]We finally lost her..Why let Horde lose another character?

[Stickiler]

That's the whole reason they were able to "redeem" her. Her soul was split in "good" and "evil" and the "good" half didn't do anything bad, so in a sense she wasn't her self when she did all of those terrible things. It might not be direct mind control or anything like that, but she was absolutely controlled/manipulated.

Blizzard keeps going back and forth on it anyway. I don't even care. Sylvanas should just take another dive off ICC if you ask me.

Nope, you even misunderstood the soul split. They explicitly explained that she wasn't split in to "good" and "evil". The fractured part of her soul was just frozen in time from when she was the ranger-general, and the whole conflict from the cinematic was her having to explain(to a young and idealistic version of herself) why she made the choices she did.

And if you think they "redeemed" her, then you've REALLY misunderstood the story.

[GreenJesus]

Dude, the soul split only means that there was a part of her soul frozen at the time of her death.

All that Banshee Sylvanas did was of her own free will -manipulated as anyone can be- but HER choice.

Arthas literally had the helm of DOMINATION exerting dominion over him. Sylvanas, once she was freed from Arthas control, was FREE.

You can't get mad if you're misunderstanding the plot. That's not the story's fault.

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Sylvanas isn't getting tortured, she's just gonna have to redo the "Return Lost Souls" quest until the Maw is empty.

Is it really a choice if only the worst parts of her soul was left to make decisions? She lost her ability to feel empathy or goodness and was only left with rage and pain.

[Stickiler]

Unmake for what reasons? not explained.

"this world is a prison" -> join army of the JAILER that JAILS and DOMINATE people, why?


0 explaination.


plus the 4chan leak show us how it was scrapped after making the cinematics.

What? Unmake it because, from Sylvanas standpoint, she didn't want to be judged and have her future decisions made for her, as happens with the Arbiter and the afterlives. We know now that the Jailer didn't give a shit about unmaking it, he just wanted to rule, but that doesn't change that Sylvanas' motivations were extremely clear.



"this world is a prison" -> Joins with someone who was locked up for fighting against the system she hates? Not that complicated.



Also "4chan leak" omegalul

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Is it a choice if only the worst side of her soul was left to make decisions? Imagine the angel and devil on your shoulder right? Now, remove the angel from your shoulder and you can ONLY listen to the devil. Is that really a choice?

That's not how it works though. It's not a "good" side and a "bad" side. It was a side that was frozen as the idealistic Ranger-General, and the rest which had to live through undeath as a banshee(Including being forced to slay her own people), throwing herself off Icecrown and seeing the Maw, etc etc.

[GreenJesus]

What? Unmake it because, from Sylvanas standpoint, she didn't want to be judged and have her future decisions made for her, as happens with the Arbiter and the afterlives. We know now that the Jailer didn't give a shit about unmaking it, he just wanted to rule, but that doesn't change that Sylvanas' motivations were extremely clear.



"this world is a prison" -> Joins with someone who was locked up for fighting against the system she hates? Not that complicated.



Also "4chan leak" omegalul

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That's not how it works though. It's not a "good" side and a "bad" side. It was a side that was frozen as the idealistic Ranger-General, and the rest which had to live through undeath as a banshee(Including being forced to slay her own people), throwing herself off Icecrown and seeing the Maw, etc etc.

So if they were identical copies.. then what was the point of the soul being split in the first place? What does having a split soul do to the person "living" in the mortal realm? And how do you "split" a soul? Wouldn't certain properties from one half be missing from the other half or deprive them of something? You would think only having half of a soul would make decision making kind of hard.

[uuuhname]

because the writers for this game suck. they can never make an alliance character into a bad guy (without comical levels of retconning after the fact) much less give the alliance any sort of motivation beyond reacting to what the horde is doing. now that Sylvanis is out of the way I guarantee they will create a new horde character to turn into a bad guy, because nothing new or innovative (for Warcraft) is ever going happen in this game.

[Minikin]

Forever down there with Tyrande's Owl watching her so that she doesn't escape.

No searching for Nathanos.
No being sent to Revendreth to be redeemed.
No actual forgiveness from Tyrande.

At least until they decide to bring her back for another expansion, but given this ceremony, that won't be for a while. I can even say that this might make Danuser less suspicious about being a Sylvanas simp... Honestly for the best.

Until you find out that Danuser has been in the Maw this entire time XD

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Pelagos: Sylvanas Windrunner. There can be no true justice without compassion and I can see your deeds bear the mark of the Jailer's influence, an influence we failed to contain.
Pelagos: Then you know in your heart to whom you must answer, in trusting justice to your most fervent adversary.
Pelagos: Are there any gathered here who object to this fate.
Pelagos: So be it.
Sylvanas: The Jailer did not control me. Death would be a merciful end Tyrande. However long it takes.
Tyrande: What game do you play now Banshee?
Tyrande: The Sylvanas I hunted would never submit to the blade of her enemy. Your newfound remorse might be genuine. There will be no peace for you Windrunner.
Tyrande: The prisoner is in my charge now.
Tyrande: Below lies the Maw. Every Soul lost in its depths, betrayed or condemned, you should find and send forth to the Arbiter. You will toil there under Dori'thur's watchful eye. This is how you shall bring renewal to your victims. <Darnassian>, old friend. Watch her well.
Pelagos: The time for your judgment is at hand.
Sylvanas: My actions were mine alone and I accept their consequences and I do not expect your mercy.
Tyrande: But it can never erase all you have done. Until there is peace for the souls of your victims.
Tyrande: Bring her.
Tyrande: An unjust fate to which you doomed so many. And it will be there that your penance begins. To be judged with the compassion all souls deserve. Scouring every darkened reach until the final soul is free and you are all that remains and my people.
Tyrande: It shall be done.
------------------------------------------
She finally left us!

Why did Anduin survive and live well? Can't the Alliance lose one or two main character?

Varok,Sylvanas....what did the Hordefans win?? We are all losers!

You aren't a horde fan.

You are just someone who is mad that the side you aren't on isn't hurting.

All you are, is biased.

[Dioporco]

Sylvanas saw the cycle set up by the First Ones as controlling and it reminded her of the domination of Arthas. The Jailer told her he would smash this cycle and allow everyone true freedom. The most sympathetic way you can look at Sylvanas is she wouldn't have made these decisions if it wasn't for her previous trauma, but she still inflicted her worst experiences on others to advance her goals making her unforgivable.

OMEGALUL

The cycle set by First One is JUST the balance of universe itself, to create stuff and destroy it a fucking ourobos.

There is nothing regarding DOMINIATION BY ARTHAS if NOT BY THE JAILER ITSELF with the skull armor, dark theme, creepy setting of the maw, torturing souls and IMPRISONING - DOMINATING THEM



She is just retard and writers are dumb at this point

[ohwell]

The whole point made this expansion is that is that the Jailer didn't control her. Like I know the story hasn't been good but they have make sure to stress Sylvanas had agency. Why does this idea that she was controlled keep cropping up?

Because 99% of the people who say the story is bad didn't pay attention to it AT ALL. It's easy to call something bad when you leave out many key elements. I mean people still say "bald man boring, we know nothing about him!" when he's actually one of the pantheon we know the most about and if you actually watched and read you'd know why he ignores us.

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Sylvanas saw the cycle set up by the First Ones as controlling and it reminded her of the domination of Arthas. The Jailer told her he would smash this cycle and allow everyone true freedom. The most sympathetic way you can look at Sylvanas is she wouldn't have made these decisions if it wasn't for her previous trauma, but she still inflicted her worst experiences on others to advance her goals making her unforgivable.

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They didn't redeem her - going into the Maw for a punishment is not redemption. There also wasn't a "good" and "evil" soul.

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It was never about a "good" and "evil" soul. The fragment the Jailer held did not experience the trauma of Domination by Arthas and could not believe she would go on to be such a murderous monster. The internal conflict wasn't about good overcoming evil, it was about the Sylvanas-that-was coming to terms with the Sylvanas-that-is. Until she had accepted that and healed her soul she could not aid everyone else in stopping the Jailer.

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Erm Garrosh, Varian, Vol'jinn, Saurfang...

Actually if the Jailer had succeeded, the burning of Teldrassil and anything bad that was done along the way would have vanished so it was most definitely even more than the ends justifying the means because the means would have been erased. Basically her actions were only bad if the Jailer was stopped.

[Stickiler]

So if they were identical copies.. then what was the point of the soul being split in the first place? What does having a split soul do to the person "living" in the mortal realm? And how do you "split" a soul? Wouldn't certain properties from one half be missing from the other half or deprive them of something? You would think only having half of a soul would make decision making kind of hard.

We've seen some uses for Split souls already, Zovaal using Arthas' to forge Kingsmourne, for example. From what we've seen in game, the split soul is less like tearing a piece of paper in half(where each half only has parts of the base) and more like Mitosis, where both parts are the same, just lesser in mass.


Having a split soul appears to cause some kind of pain, seen through Uther's storyline, though whether that pain exists for a banshee or not, we don't know.

[Springrunner]

I agree, it's high time we kill some alliance major characters.

Starting with Jaina.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Sure sounds like torture to me…

Sometimes penance can feel like it.

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Nah, I'm not misunderstanding anything. The story is just a steaming pile of trash with a hundred retcons and plot holes.

And Imagine actually caring about any of the story/lore in SL. I think I'd rather keep my brain cells...

The story being bad, and your misunderstanding of it as it actually happened, can both coexist. You can totally misunderstand a story regardless of the narrative's quality, and you totally have.

Also misunderstanding the narrative, getting angry about it, and then saying "I'd rather keep my brain cells" when it's pointed out, it's a bruv moment.

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Maybe because she was inexplicably teaming up with the dude robot whose sole shtick was Domination? Lame as "the devil made me do it!" line is, it would more or less explain her moustache twirling from Cata onwards. But now, we know that she teamed up with Arthas' boss AND with his second in command voluntarily /facepalm

At least she's been put on standby, hopefully for a long, long time. Now the same should be done with Anduin and the rest of the Mary Sue's.

Yeah but that's basically saying "She was written badly so ergo she must have been mind controlled"

Sometimes the answer is that the writing is bad, and that the people writing her had VERY different ideas of where to take the character.

Of course they *could* have gone with the "she was controlled" answer to try to fix the mess that was Teldrassil, but that would have ruined the character in other ways, because the core problem here is just simply, bad writing, and all the unsuccessful ways that has been tried to be fixed.

But intrinsically, what just ruined Sylvanas character -and the nuance she threaded between self serving and actually caring- was Teldrassil.

[Dhrizzle]

OMEGALUL

The cycle set by First One is JUST the balance of universe itself, to create stuff and destroy it a fucking ourobos.

There is nothing regarding DOMINIATION BY ARTHAS if NOT BY THE JAILER ITSELF with the skull armor, dark theme, creepy setting of the maw, torturing souls and IMPRISONING - DOMINATING THEM



She is just retard and writers are dumb at this point

You should check out some of the lore in Shadowlands. It shows that after death a soul is fed into the cosmic machinery to serve a purpose. No rest, no freedom, just made to serve. Now this may not be true of every part of the Shadowlands but it is what Sylvanas saw, it is what she believed and it is what motivated her.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

There was a big plot point about the fact that her soul was split. There was evilvanas and goodvanas, and Jailer stole goodvanas away. After the events of Sanctum Jailer gave goodvanas back to evilvanas (I guess even an ancient evil might have a sense of humor like that).

But that's the thing, the soul split didn't divide her soul into a "good" and an "evil" part. That's the whole point, as Uther explains it:

<Uther reaches toward the wound beneath his chestplate.>
When Arthas struck me down, Frostmourne shattered my soul. But it was not divided into one part that was noble and another that was cruel.
Rather, it was as if a portion of my consciousness remained frozen in time while the rest of my soul carried on.
To feel that missing fragment restored... well, it has caused me to reflect upon many of the choices I have made.

There's just one Sylvanas that went through the whole trauma we saw her go through, and one frozen at the moment of her death. The confrontation between the two aspects is what makes her take a good look at what she was, and what she has become. But it's more psychological than metaphysical.

Bottom line is - if Sylvanas soul wasn't split in the first place (caused by Arthas, Jailer's pawn), OR Jailer didn't hide away her piece to make sure only evilvanas was available, none of this would happen. So yeah, he basically controlled her, kind of indirectly but still.

If Sylvanas soul wasn't split, she would have done pretty much the same things she did, loosing a part of her soul didn't make her more evil beyond the feeling that something is missing.

[Dhrizzle]

Because 99% of the people who say the story is bad didn't pay attention to it AT ALL. It's easy to call something bad when you leave out many key elements. I mean people still say "bald man boring, we know nothing about him!" when he's actually one of the pantheon we know the most about and if you actually watched and read you'd know why he ignores us.

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Actually if the Jailer had succeeded, the burning of Teldrassil and anything bad that was done along the way would have vanished so it was most definitely even more than the ends justifying the means because the means would have been erased. Basically her actions were only bad if the Jailer was stopped.

I can see that to Sylvanas the burning of Teldrassil would be justified because the souls that died would have a better existence in the New-Universe-Order she thought she was bringing about. There is the issue of her deciding that unilaterally, but that issue pails in comparison to the fact she was wrong to trust the Jailer, and she inflicted her worst experiences (burning Teldrassil, dominating Anduin) in service to the opposite of what she wanted.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Yup, it is impressive how we can have such a simple, basic, shitty, easy story and people like ercarp somehow got it wrong. Probably doesn't play the game and is just here to shitpost.

That's what gets to me. This is not a "complex" narrative, and most certainly not a good one, and while I have my issues about how they framed Shattered Memories through Ranger Sylvanas to elicit more sympathy by saying "see? She wasn't always evil!!", we already know that the soul split doesn't make a good and bad version, because Uther told us.

Uther went through a dark path because he still couldn't forget his death as it was etched on his soul even if he forgot the rest. Sylvanas perhaps also felt a sharper emptyness than other forsaken, but beyond making her more prone to nihilistic ennui, the sort that makes you say "maybe resetting the universe is the best way", she was still Sylvanas.

People forget that she turned on the Jailer *before* the split. She HAD free will the whole time. It was only when she realized that the Jailer had no intentions of remaking reality as a fair existence that she turned on him. Because again, the whole point is that she was 100% on board with resetting the universe, no matter the cost, it was only when she realized she was changing one master (fate) for another (the jailer) that she turned on him.

[Woggmer]

Well, at least this news deconfirms any leaks saying that Sylvanas will make a return in 10.0

[Dhrizzle]

So if they were identical copies.. then what was the point of the soul being split in the first place? What does having a split soul do to the person "living" in the mortal realm? And how do you "split" a soul? Wouldn't certain properties from one half be missing from the other half or deprive them of something? You would think only having half of a soul would make decision making kind of hard.

Having a wounded soul seems to be a traumatic experience and that has an effect on people but it isn't something simple like "that bit of my soul has the empathy so I can be excused for my bad behaviour."

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Is it really a choice if only the worst parts of her soul was left to make decisions? She lost her ability to feel empathy or goodness and was only left with rage and pain.

No more so than any other forsaken, not really. That's the thing, all Forsaken are outright traumatized versions of their former selves, nothing about their existence is *fair*, but the whole point is that inflicting that pain into others doesn't fix anything.

The soul split didn't remove her empathy, again, Uther makes clear that it doesn't make a good and bad versions of you. Being a killed and raised, forced to slaughter her own people by the man that killed her, THAT tore out the empathy and goodness from her.

[Pheraz]

What I don't understand with Sylvanas fans is what exactly was so cool about her previous to SL except what many people moan about danusers relation to this character, that she is a blonde gothic elf in mail bikini?
First she stands around for two expansions as a night elf in UC and sings lament of the highborne. Then she becomes evil and bombs people with the plague and raising dead. Where was she "cool" or interesting? Except... Being a blonde gothic elf in a mail bikini

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Because 99% of the people who say the story is bad didn't pay attention to it AT ALL. It's easy to call something bad when you leave out many key elements. I mean people still say "bald man boring, we know nothing about him!" when he's actually one of the pantheon we know the most about and if you actually watched and read you'd know why he ignores us.

Oh no the story IS bad, paying attention and understanding it doesn't make it a GOOD story, not by a long shot.

Not because plot elements mechanically make sense does it make it a compelling narrative.

Because I 100% still believe that making Sylvanas into a psychopathic mass murderer was a dumb choice, and the story has wasted so much time trying to explain somehow how it could have made any sense, when the most sensible option would have been to simply say it wasn't Sylvanas lmao.