In Defense of Difficulty

[NineSpine]

I dont play any of those games.

Are you telling me I can do world quest brain dead content and earn the most powerful gear possible. 0 difference in player power between me and someone that does any other content?

Did I say a single damn word about world quests?

Can you do casual content and get BiS or extremely close to BiS in all of those games? Yes.

[Jessicka]

Complex mechanics like you are talking about are great for organized group content. They are not for queued group content.

You still need to keep them fresh. And queued group content is always going to have an issue with one-shot mechanics; while not-one-shot mechanics will always be 'healed through and ignored' by those getting hit by them. I've always been a fan of slowed attack debuffs for that reason, since they're visceral and as a player you want to avoid them. But, everyone else fucking hates them.

[ellieg]

Did I say a damn word about world quests?

I'm saying that level of difficulty. Like go kill 8 enemies and loot an item. Something a child can do solo.

[NineSpine]

You still need to keep them fresh. And queued group content is always going to have an issue with one-shot mechanics; while not-one-shot mechanics will always be 'healed through and ignored' by those getting hit by them.

FF14 is full of one shot mechanics in queued content.

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I'm saying that level of difficulty. Like go kill 8 enemies and loot an item. Something a child can do solo.

I don't know what weird tangent you are on. I'm talking about casual content.

[ellieg]

FF14 is full of one shot mechanics in queued content.

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I don't know what weird tangent you are on. I'm talking about casual content.

Define casual content then. Because I thought we were both talking about players getting BiS for doing WQ/ Queued content like lfr. Like solo only players getting bis.

[Toybox]

Did I say a single damn word about world quests?

Can you do casual content and get BiS or extremely close to BiS in all of those games? Yes.

You can get full normal tier & 291 leggos without doing anything requiring multiple players. Raid trinkets are awful as well. Casuals are missing out on little but a bit of item level at the mo.

People like to go on about badge items from yesteryear but there was never a tier that gave you normal iLvl tier in every slot without entering the raid. You could either get a few pieces from LFR (Cata/MoP) or you could buy buy just a handful of slots (Wrath).

[Jessicka]

FF14 is full of one shot mechanics in queued content.

I can only presume it's been that out of the box and an expectation built.

This is what I mean when I say you can't put toothpaste back in the tube, and why it was a disaster trying to do that all the way back in Cataclysm. You can't change a design paradigm to such a base level of the game mid-lifespan, and especially not as late as we are in the game's life.

[NineSpine]

Define casual content then. Because I thought we were both talking about players getting BiS for doing WQ/ Queued content like lfr. Like solo only players getting bis.

Queued content isn't solo, so we are not getting anywhere here.

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I can only presume it's been that out of the box and an expectation built.

This is what I mean when I say you can't put toothpaste back in the tube, and why it was a disaster trying to do that all the way back in Cataclysm. You can't change a design paradigm to such a base level of the game mid-lifespan, and especially not as late as we are in the game's life.

FF14 has gotten harder over time.

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You can get full normal tier & 291 leggos without doing anything requiring multiple players. Raid trinkets are awful as well. Casuals are missing out on little but a bit of item level at the mo.

People like to go on about badge items from yesteryear but there was never a tier that gave you normal iLvl tier in every slot without entering the raid. You could either get a few pieces from LFR (Cata/MoP) or you could buy buy just a handful of slots (Wrath).

The issue is less so much the precise item level but the lack of a long term and substantive upgrade path for casual players. As a casual player, you either max out your gear incredibly quickly or you are asked to grind one patch-based system for any upgrades. It just makes the most sense and is the least obtrusive solution to provide a casual pillar to the current three pillar of hardcore game modes design.

[Jessicka]

FF14 has gotten harder over time.

So has WoW.

[NineSpine]

So has WoW.

I mean for the average player, not just adding harder shit on top. The normal raids now are harder than the normal raids two expansions ago.

[ellieg]

Queued content isn't solo, so we are not getting anywhere here.

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FF14 has gotten harder over time.

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The issue is less so much the precise item level but the lack of a long term and substantive upgrade path for casual players. As a casual player, you either max out your gear incredibly quickly or you are asked to grind one patch-based system for any upgrades. It just makes the most sense and is the least obtrusive solution to provide a casual pillar to the current three pillar of hardcore game modes design.

Ok let's restart. You claimed ppl of all content should be able to get bis regardless of how difficult it is right?

Then listed 4 different games that you said do it this way.

[Toybox]

The issue is less so much the precise item level but the lack of a long term and substantive upgrade path for casual players. As a casual player, you either max out your gear incredibly quickly or you are asked to grind one patch-based system for any upgrades. It just makes the most sense and is the least obtrusive solution to provide a casual pillar to the current three pillar of hardcore game modes design.

Hmm. Wouldn't having different ways to gear per patch make it more interesting for casuals instead of just some single-player M+ alternative (or something similar) that was the same every patch?

[NineSpine]

Ok let's restart. You claimed ppl of all content should be able to get bis regardless of how difficult it is right?

Then listed 4 different games that you said do it this way.

I listed 4 games that allow you get achieve BiS, or extremely close to BiS depending on the specific eccentricities of the game, with a combination of solo and queued content. Basically the ability to achieve that without needing to do organized group content.

[Kirbydude65]

I dont play any of those games.

Are you telling me I can do world quest brain dead content and earn the most powerful gear possible. 0 difference in player power between me and someone that does any other content?

Again this poster is being a bit disingenuous.

In Destiny 2 you can reach max power cap, but thats not BiS. You'd still have to farm for specific stats depending on your build, specific weapon rolls, mods and armor upgrade (Ascendant Shards Require a lot of farming or engaging with high level content), and some of the best weapons only drop from difficulty content.

In FF14 tomestones (Rewards from WoW's equivalent to Heroic Dungeons) don't get you to max item level, but just below. Think the item level gap between Heroic and Mythic Raiding.

The user's argument shouldn't be that you get BiS, but that you can get close to it very casually. If they wana argue that 252 (Normal Raid Item Level) isn't enough for casual players than they'd have more of a leg to stand on.

[NineSpine]

Hmm. Wouldn't having different ways to gear per patch make it more interesting for casuals instead of just some single-player M+ alternative (or something similar) that was the same every patch?

I prefer to see new evergreen systems added every patch rather than a new temporary system during the patch. I 'm fine with current patch content playing a role, even a prominent role, but I'd like to see it be a lot more broad than just "Grind in this zone for six months".

[Jessicka]

I mean for the average player, not just adding harder shit on top. The normal raids now are harder than the normal raids two expansions ago.

Baseline class design got more complex, and I can't speak for modern raids but WoD raids were harder than Wrath and I can only infer from the current state of progression that this tier of Mythic makes Algalon look like a cakewalk. The difference is WoW has tried to backfill and somehow you resent that, because they've done it in the 'wrong way'?

[ellieg]

I listed 4 games that allow you get achieve BiS, or extremely close to BiS depending on the specific eccentricities of the game, with a combination of solo and queued content. Basically the ability to achieve that without needing to do organized group content.

Ok so you can queue for the content.

I was talking about human nature of wanting to overcome a challenge for your reward. And gear level being tied to difficulty.

So even though you queue, or do it solo, does the harder content drop better gear?

[NineSpine]

Again this poster is being a bit disingenuous.

In Destiny 2 you can reach max power cap, but thats not BiS. You'd still have to farm for specific stats depending on your build, specific weapon rolls, mods and armor upgrade (Ascendant Shards Require a lot of farming or engaging with high level content), and some of the best weapons only drop from difficulty content.

All of those are things you can get from solo and queued content, except the special weapons which are not required and are not always the best option. This is a nitpick at best.

In FF14 tomestones (Rewards from WoW's equivalent to Heroic Dungeons) don't get you to max item level, but just below. Think the item level gap between Heroic and Mythic Raiding.

You can queue for almost anything in FF14 and depending on the patch you can get BiS sort of, it really depends. It's more complicated than just tomestone gear.

[jeezusisacasual]

The reason for temporary systems is good in a few different ways. It changes everything in very different ways every patch or expansion so its always fresh ( its why i change my main every M+ season ). I would also assume if they did not do these systems people would cry when every 3rd expansion you had a big prune that removed redundant abilities ( i still dont understand why people care about them removing abilities no one ever used or needed to use ).

The other aspect i seem people complain about is how they toss a raid tier into the bin the moment new content comes out, they have this idea that people late to the expansion will want to spend time grinding or doing previous content to catch up. That is a moronic idea to hold honestly. Traditional MMO's are dying for a reason in the modern pick up and play gaming landscape. Hell i got KSM last week so my sub runs out in 6 days i am not renewing until another M+ season that rewards something worth my time.

[NineSpine]

Ok so you can queue for the content.

I was talking about human nature of wanting to overcome a challenge for your reward. And gear level being tied to difficulty.

So even though you queue, or do it solo, does the harder content drop better gear?

There's a different answer for that in every game.

Destiny 2: There are some exclusive weapons to the hardest content, but an upgrade is the same no matter where it comes from. An upgrade drop from a raid is the same as an upgrade drop from anything else.

GW2: No, the max gear can be achieved very easily and the hardest content does not drop better gear than that.

ESO: Similar to the above (although I am less familiar with the details).

FF14: Depends on the patch and the gear slot.