10.0 should remove the timer from Mythic+ dungeons...

[Jester Joe]

thats bs though . 1 minor mistake from 1 person can cost you timer and key

Except all it actually "costs" you is a level of the key.

Maybe you'd have a point if it was still early Legion where keys could actually deplete and become unusable but it hasn't been like that for a long time. Or if you didn't get gear for timing.

But you still get rewarded for untimed runs. So it has nothing to do with the timer.

[tonicsargeras]

How long have you played WoW? Because you used to have to wait for cooldowns to be up or save them for a good attempt. Because they wouldn't reset when you wipe or the encounter was over. People will always prioritize speed and efficency but they will also stop those it if means reward vs no reward.

Since 2005
Waiting 2 minutes for a raid boss is quite different from waiting 9 minutes between each trash pull in a dungeon :P

[rhorle]

Since 2005 Waiting 2 minutes for a raid boss is quite different from waiting 9 minutes between each trash pull in a dungeon :P

Right. But what do you think will happen when there is no timer? The +X will be higher and eventually encourage things such as that, right? Groups can get a +30. No timer would likely also mean that Blizzard change ranges loot is rewarded as well.

[tonicsargeras]

Right. But what do you think will happen when there is no timer? The +X will be higher and eventually encourage things such as that, right? Groups can get a +30. No timer would likely also mean that Blizzard change ranges loot is rewarded as well.

As I've stated before, Challenge Modes would effectively replace all keys above 15.

[rhorle]

As I've stated before, Challenge Modes would effectively replace all keys above 15.

So easy loot for all and a timer for anyone who wants difficult content. A +15 without a timer wouldn't be hard at all even if people don't wait for cool downs on trash.

[tonicsargeras]

So easy loot for all and a timer for anyone who wants difficult content. A +15 without a timer wouldn't be hard at all even if people don't wait for cool downs on trash.

"Easy" is certainly subjective. Might be easy for you and I, but sufficiently challenging for many players. If it's too easy then they can tweak the damage/health scaling - not a hard problem to fix.

I would argue that increasing accessibility is a good thing right now, especially since Dragonflight is trying to win back the players that aren't hardcore raiders after multiple expansions with absurd barriers to entry for endgame content. Removing the timer in most key levels would go a long way to keeping them engaged, similar to badge loot in previous expansions.

Irs okay if casual players get loot sometimes, and I think it is good for the game to have more people around doing content

[rhorle]

"Easy" is certainly subjective. Might be easy for you and I, but sufficiently challenging for many players.

No. Because what stops everyone from doing it easily is the timer and not being able to plan or take their time. Deaths also subtract from the timer. Tweaking damage and health scaling changes it from a +15 like I said things would have to happen. All it does is move the goal from +15 to +30 because the entire consumption curve would change with out the timer.

They are accessible right now as well so nothing is increased with your change. Even more so if you change the scaling amounts. It just moves the same barriers to a higher number. You can get +8/9 item level gear from Zerith Mortis when you have the Cypher Research at the last tier. That is accessible while giving most people a medium challenge to push to +15 for the prestige rewards and loot.

Most of the lower keys that these people are afraid of doing get done with out the timer ever being at risk. Because people natural move fast and the timers are not that tight. This isn't about casual players either because you can be casual but not afraid of a timer. Stop moving the goal posts to prop up your idea with whatever you can think of just because you don't like a timed mode.

[Tech614]

"Easy" is certainly subjective. Might be easy for you and I, but sufficiently challenging for many players. If it's too easy then they can tweak the damage/health scaling - not a hard problem to fix.

Uhh a +15 would need the damage and health of like a +28 to be challenging for even below average players without a timer. Again another person demonstrating they don't run keys or understand how they work or are tuned. If you have 3 min CDs for every pull even absurdly high keys would be a joke, not even sure why people are straw manning waiting on lust when 3 mins alone destroy pulls.

If they had to make +15s that hard to compensate for no timer you also wouldn't be doing them and complaining they're too hard on the forums. First it was the timer that was too hard, now its the raw throughput you need to win each encounter that's too hard. It never stops with your type, you just want rewarded with free max ilvl loot for the sake of you playing the game instead of earning it.

Instead of people giving into the "I want free loot" crowd it's good for M+ to remain a unique game mode with a very different play style from raids.

[Aresk]

So easy loot for all and a timer for anyone who wants difficult content. A +15 without a timer wouldn't be hard at all even if people don't wait for cool downs on trash.

A +15 with a timer isn't hard as long as everyone knows the fights. The only time I've not timed a +15 in the past few weeks (running minimum of 8 dungeons a week, at least half of which are pugs) is when players didn't understand how to hook Stitchflesh properly. We still finished the dungeon (waiting for hero multiple times on the five or so attempts it took to get the boss) and went almost 30 minutes over the timer, and the group still got essentially the same rewards as if we had timed everything (other than the key dropped to a 14 instead of increasing to a 16 or 17). The timer only really matters on a +20 for the teleport upgrade; outside of that, it's pretty non-relevant in terms of difficulty.

What a timer does succeed in doing is increase anxiety about the runs. I actually prefer pugs not on voice chat when running 15s because the group I normally run with encourages riskier pulls that aren't necessary to time things. I've tried getting new players into M+, but anything less than a 10 is pretty much pointless for training because the mechanics are so different once one hits a 10, and the timer doesn't give time to explain certain fights or strategies to new players who assume that timing runs is actually important.

I'm really not convinced that people who can easily time a +15 could finish a +30. Mechanics that are punishing on +15 would be fatal on +30, and I certainly doubt I'd be able to survive even if all cooldowns were removed and I could operate with my best buffs constantly active.

[kaminaris]

Uhh a +15 would need the damage and health of like a +28 to be challenging for even below average players without a timer. Again another person demonstrating they don't run keys or understand how they work or are tuned. If you have 3 min CDs for every pull even absurdly high keys would be a joke, not even sure why people are straw manning waiting on lust when 3 mins alone destroy pulls.

If they had to make +15s that hard to compensate for no timer you also wouldn't be doing them and complaining they're too hard on the forums. First it was the timer that was too hard, now its the raw throughput you need to win each encounter that's too hard. It never stops with your type, you just want rewarded with free max ilvl loot for the sake of you playing the game instead of earning it.

Instead of people giving into the "I want free loot" crowd it's good for M+ to remain a unique game mode with a very different play style from raids.

If you don't have imagination maybe. Guess thats what people believe after blizzard feeding them 3-mechanics crap bosses.
Also don't talk about "understanding keys" if you never been in high keys yourself.
It would be trivial to design a dungeon on current +15 level scaling that would take days for people to complete. Heck, it would be trivial to design a dungeon on normal level that nobody would be able to complete. Just slap in 150ms reaction insta death mechanic and see how many can react that fast.

There would be so many interesting and challenging mechanics to implement if not for stupid timer ie memory games, logic puzzes, dancing, random ambushes, etc (and all of them were implemented in game already with better or worse result - except in m+)

"I WaNt FrEe LoOt" lol, its already free loot. Its not a unique game mode, its braindead meatgrinder x button masher. I guess you want easy loot because complex mechanics = too hard

[chiddie]

A version of this already exists? You get [lower ilv] loot for completing dungeons than if you timed it. On keys over 15 (max ilvl reward), +40% chance for an extra item per key level so you reach 4 pieces of loot on a +20 completed in time...

It’s a poor version, actually.

My idea:
- relax base timer adding 1 minute basing on the number of bosses in the dungeon.
- failing the base timer grants no key level upgrade BUT no key level down and 3 ilvl XXX drops
- succeeding the base timer grants you a +1 key level and 3 ilvl XXX drops
- overperforming the base timer grants you a +2 key level and 4 ilvl XXX drops
- overperforming the base timer A LOT grants you a +3 key level and 5 ilvl XXX drops

No need at all to have key depleted or lower ilvl loot if you fail the timer.

Oh and another thing: let just people target the dungeon they want at the difficulty level they want AFTER they have completed it once at a certain level of difficulty.

We should change perspective and instead of heavily punishing people for failing the timer we should just add rewards if people overpeeform.

[Freighter]

thats bs though . 1 minor mistake from 1 person can cost you timer and key .

we are not robots to play for 30-40 minutes flawlesly 100 % of time. even mdi teams make mistakes.

its bringnign nothing besides pure frustration when key id depeleted not from fault of owner of key

https://raider.io/mythic-plus-runs/s...soleahs-gambit

Wiped to bursting extended last second on high stacks, still timed it.

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"Easy" is certainly subjective. Might be easy for you and I, but sufficiently challenging for many players. If it's too easy then they can tweak the damage/health scaling - not a hard problem to fix.

I would argue that increasing accessibility is a good thing right now, especially since Dragonflight is trying to win back the players that aren't hardcore raiders after multiple expansions with absurd barriers to entry for endgame content. Removing the timer in most key levels would go a long way to keeping them engaged, similar to badge loot in previous expansions.

Irs okay if casual players get loot sometimes, and I think it is good for the game to have more people around doing content

https://raider.io/mythic-plus-runs/s...s-of-atonement

The priest wasn't playing. We effectively did it with 4 people.

[Azharok]

thats bs though . 1 minor mistake from 1 person can cost you timer and key .

we are not robots to play for 30-40 minutes flawlesly 100 % of time. even mdi teams make mistakes.

its bringnign nothing besides pure frustration when key id depeleted not from fault of owner of key

- - - Updated - - -



and what would be bad about it ? if people want to spend whole week in 1 dungeon let them

how does this would affect the way you play game ? when most of time even with bl if people cannot perform they will never kill certain bosses. its especially visible on tyranical weeks when you do dungeons with undergeared groups.

If the key is dead, go next nbd. You don't need to play flawlessly to time keys until you get in the super high keys (i'd say 22-24 and above), which practically no-one does anyway (with regards to the WoW playerbase) so I don't see how removing the timer would incentive people who already don't participate in M+ to sit in dungeon for hours to get a 15-20 done (or whatever key lvl would be "hard"). This is the opposite of casual. The whole idea of the timer is also that you KNOW ahead of time how much time you plan on playing. Going PF ? 38minutes from key start to finish. If you're on track to timing, good, if not, go next.

- - - Updated - - -

A +15 with a timer isn't hard as long as everyone knows the fights. The only time I've not timed a +15 in the past few weeks (running minimum of 8 dungeons a week, at least half of which are pugs) is when players didn't understand how to hook Stitchflesh properly. We still finished the dungeon (waiting for hero multiple times on the five or so attempts it took to get the boss) and went almost 30 minutes over the timer, and the group still got essentially the same rewards as if we had timed everything (other than the key dropped to a 14 instead of increasing to a 16 or 17). The timer only really matters on a +20 for the teleport upgrade; outside of that, it's pretty non-relevant in terms of difficulty.

What a timer does succeed in doing is increase anxiety about the runs. I actually prefer pugs not on voice chat when running 15s because the group I normally run with encourages riskier pulls that aren't necessary to time things. I've tried getting new players into M+, but anything less than a 10 is pretty much pointless for training because the mechanics are so different once one hits a 10, and the timer doesn't give time to explain certain fights or strategies to new players who assume that timing runs is actually important.

I'm really not convinced that people who can easily time a +15 could finish a +30. Mechanics that are punishing on +15 would be fatal on +30, and I certainly doubt I'd be able to survive even if all cooldowns were removed and I could operate with my best buffs constantly active.

Don't you get one less loot for bricking the key ?

The timer matters for everyone pushing keys above 15, since that's the only reward. The teleport is just a convenience.

Also, timing is important, I don't see how it isn't, it's litteraly the only metric to measure performance. If timers were removed you'd drive the high-end players away (the ones that enjoy pushing past 15s where all rewards stop). Which would in turn probably mean that we'll get less challenging content all-round, and WoW will turn into an AFK clicker.

I'm not targetting you with this post, but I find your take interesting, but I don't see how "trivializing" M+ by removing the timer is going to help anyone. With 4set you can rollface and time 15s.

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So easy loot for all and a timer for anyone who wants difficult content. A +15 without a timer wouldn't be hard at all even if people don't wait for cool downs on trash.

Who waits on cooldowns in 15?

[dragonflight10]

It’s a poor version, actually.

My idea:
- relax base timer adding 1 minute basing on the number of bosses in the dungeon.
- failing the base timer grants no key level upgrade BUT no key level down and 3 ilvl XXX drops
- succeeding the base timer grants you a +1 key level and 3 ilvl XXX drops
- overperforming the base timer grants you a +2 key level and 4 ilvl XXX drops
- overperforming the base timer A LOT grants you a +3 key level and 5 ilvl XXX drops

No need at all to have key depleted or lower ilvl loot if you fail the timer.

Oh and another thing: let just people target the dungeon they want at the difficulty level they want AFTER they have completed it once at a certain level of difficulty.

We should change perspective and instead of heavily punishing people for failing the timer we should just add rewards if people overpeeform.

Aren't people who overperform get +3 key level ?

[Azharok]

Aren't people who overperform get +3 key level ?

You'd get 5 loots instead of 2, for +3, so you'd spam 15s and get LOADS of loot.

[dragonflight10]

You'd get 5 loots instead of 2, for +3, so you'd spam 15s and get LOADS of loot.

Yeh I experienced this when doing few 17-18 keys but this guy ideas are weird, it's like they are coming from someone who hasn't touched m+ since legion

[Niwes]

...and add Challenge Modes back to the game with cosmetic rewards for people who enjoy that speedrunning gameplay.

We can have both M+ and CMs in the game at the same time! M+ can be a more relaxed experience where tanks don't need to plan routes and people don't have to chainpull like its WOTLK. You can still do that if you want but I think many people would prefer if that wasn't the default setting.

For people who want that additional challenge you can have an entirely separate opt-in game mode with cool cosmetic rewards. You can even rotate which dungeons are available every season to spice things up, and add seasonal rewards.

Timed dungeons were never the core of the WOW experience, and it shouldn't be the primary way that people engage with group content. They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.

as much as i am not a big friend of timed runs (and i did and do a lot of them anyway): this is a PERFECT example why players/customers should not (try to) do the job of game designers and developers.

you thought about such less amount of consequences this descission has, that it could go ages to list them all here. thx god you are not Ion Hazzikostas.

[Usernameforforums]

Honestly not getting this "people would just wait for hero/lust cd for every pull". Not doubting some would try this, but you guys realize that a group dependent on heroism for every trash pull is going to get absolutely destroyed by the first boss, right? Hero or not.

Could just make it so that lust/hero has 2 charges with the second charge coming in at 10 minutes after entering the instance. 3 charges max depending on the instance. Lust/hero still gives debuff. Sorry i didnt feel like looking for the first post that mentions this issue.

[Twdft]

snip

I wonder how many people have you on ignore for the off topic stuff you try to "discuss" here for weeks now...

[Penegal]

lol thats like saying bosses should not have enrage timers or dps checks because it's not relaxing enough