How I Would Fix Drakthyr

[Teriz]

It seems more likely to me that dracthyr were being worked on first, and the incubus was spun off it and just released when it was good to go.

I think this is true. It makes more sense to derive a WoW minion from a WoW race, than the other way around.

[Kumorii]

When people say "rig" the usually also mean skeleton. They reuse the entire thing.
Again, with Nelfs and Nightborne example: they have different models, but their animations are all exactly the same the same. It is not a smart approach to animating - there is no animating at all.

It is okay to reuse animations for something of massive quantity. For mobs, for example. It is okay that a lot of automas in Zereth Mortis use Tauren animations.
But for players models it is not okay, especially for a new ones, which are a selling point of the xpac. This is lazy.

Skeleton is indeed part of the rig. Which, yes, can be reused due to various scripts or straight up copy if the proportions are equal. Infact, the rig is attached on the skeleton so it's created first in said scripts. Doing the rigging, aka the controls, takes more time than the skeleton.

And yeah, reusing animations are the issue... not the reusing rig. Minimizing the rigging /skeleton part IS smart. Which is what I commented on.
Reusing animations are less so. In some cases it's good. idc for idle animations. Copy that from something similar if it works, tweak it a bit because proportions will skew the values slightly etc etc.

nightborne was indeed a rushed race... but that's not because they reused a rig or skeleton. Remaking the skeleton / rig for nightborne would just result in the same rig / skeleton as the night elf because they are exactly the same.
You can even copy animations from one rig to another if the rig/skeleton receiving the animation has enough bones with the correct naming convention. So you can have 2 different rigs and one with perhaps more detailed bone structure on it and still all the animations would play correctly, bar the extra bones, like say it actually finger joints because of intricate hand movements required on the model with the more advanced rig.

So when people say Dracthyr use the same rig / skeleton as previous models... it means nothing. Which is why I say it's a popular buzzword nowadays.

then again, I do realize i come across a bit nitpicky but I feel like people should probably start talking about animations to be more clear.
Even if it shares the rig, we still see unique animations for Dracthyr. So clearly unique animations is an animation issue and not a rigging issue. And even then, Dracthyr is probably using it's own rig anyway even if it uses the same base as another model, depending on animations required ofc.

[Mutineer]

It is not only succubus, It is also female nathrezim. And, probably, something else. Those are just two examples that were found.

I took a quick look at the nathrezim and they don't seem all that similar to me, beyond their build and having wings. The wings on the dreadlord are positioned pretty differently, for one. Is there a video you're referring to that compares the models?

- - - Updated - - -

I think this is true. It makes more sense to derive a WoW minion from a WoW race, than the other way around.

Yeah, there's a ton of races derived from worgen. The dracthyr rigging is probably going to be useful enough to derive more races from in the future.

[Teriz]

then again, I do realize i come across a bit nitpicky but I feel like people should probably start talking about animations to be more clear.
Even if it shares the rig, we still see unique animations for Dracthyr. So clearly unique animations is an animation issue and not a rigging issue. And even then, Dracthyr is probably using it's own rig anyway even if it uses the same base as another model, depending on animations required ofc.

Yeah, Dracthyr animations look really good, even at this early stage;






Its going to be interesting to see them when the game hits release.

[Mutineer]

They do look great in motion, and the more I see of them, the more excited I am to get to play one.

[gd8]

Dont bother, hes a transphobe. He posted that same shit before.

Not his fault all trans people are furries

[HansOlo]

What is a furrie(yes - I did search - but the answer is unclear).

[Thorntail]

Basically just a person who wears a costume to look like a humanoid animal.
There's a whole community built up around the practice. (obviously a very niche community)
They have conventions and all kinds of stuff.

[Supertoster]

Skeleton is indeed part of the rig. Which, yes, can be reused due to various scripts or straight up copy if the proportions are equal. Infact, the rig is attached on the skeleton so it's created first in said scripts. Doing the rigging, aka the controls, takes more time than the skeleton.

And yeah, reusing animations are the issue... not the reusing rig. Minimizing the rigging /skeleton part IS smart. Which is what I commented on.
Reusing animations are less so. In some cases it's good. idc for idle animations. Copy that from something similar if it works, tweak it a bit because proportions will skew the values slightly etc etc.

nightborne was indeed a rushed race... but that's not because they reused a rig or skeleton. Remaking the skeleton / rig for nightborne would just result in the same rig / skeleton as the night elf because they are exactly the same.
You can even copy animations from one rig to another if the rig/skeleton receiving the animation has enough bones with the correct naming convention. So you can have 2 different rigs and one with perhaps more detailed bone structure on it and still all the animations would play correctly, bar the extra bones, like say it actually finger joints because of intricate hand movements required on the model with the more advanced rig.

So when people say Dracthyr use the same rig / skeleton as previous models... it means nothing. Which is why I say it's a popular buzzword nowadays.

then again, I do realize i come across a bit nitpicky but I feel like people should probably start talking about animations to be more clear.
Even if it shares the rig, we still see unique animations for Dracthyr. So clearly unique animations is an animation issue and not a rigging issue. And even then, Dracthyr is probably using it's own rig anyway even if it uses the same base as another model, depending on animations required ofc.

Totally agree. But there is a problem: no matter what people say, rig or animation - they are both right, because Blizz usullly reuse both of them. There are tons of models in the game with the same rig as well as exactly the same animations. For sake of convenience, lets call it as "base".
For example, a lot of elementals reuse voidwalker base. Slim Kul-Tirans reuse female undead base. Vulperas reuse goblin base. Dark Iron Dwarfs, Lightforged, Void Elves and Maghar are literally just reskins.

It is sad not only because it looks lazy. It is sad because previously it was different. In the past, Blizz actually created new models with new rigs, skeletons and animations for new races.

[cocomen2]

What is a furrie(yes - I did search - but the answer is unclear).

People who find animal characteristics sexy, but forced to cope with humans in animal suits.

[Hitei]

They are not the same skeleton, rig, or animations.

Here is the female dreadlord model (Dreadqueen.m2) and Incubus model lined up

(Video)
https://puu.sh/IYVnT/de42f29b2d.mp4

(Picture)



It's super easy to line them up, because they use the same rig, you can just make them the same size, line up the feet and knees and everything else lines up nearly exact (slight differences in animation cycle aside) because they are two models on the same rig. This is what two models that use the same rig look like. The are proportionally 1:1, because if they are not the same proportionally, the rig does not line up with various joins and moving parts that need to move, and the model will bend in weird places.


Here is the female dreadlord model and the Dracthyr model "lined up".

(Video)
https://puu.sh/IYVsy/b25ff46c4a.mp4

(Picture)




I put "lined up" in quotes, because you can't actually line them up, because they use two entire different rigs with totally different proportions. I lined up the feet and knees where they should be matched, as above, and nothing else matches or lines up because they aren't the same thing, or even close to the same rig. All that is similar about them is that they have the same digitigrade legs. Note that to even attempt to make the feet and knees line up, you have to size the Dracthyr much smaller, because it's a very tall model, where the Incubus/Dreadqueen are squat.

To drive home the point,
https://puu.sh/IYVx8/4aaecd108c.mp4
here is a 90 second video of me lining up all three, so you can see how easy it is to line up the Dreadqueen and Incubus, because they share a rig, and how you literally cannot line up the Dracthyr, because it has a totally different rig with wildly different proportions, so the legs do not line up, and to get them to even be close you have to have the Dracthyr's shoulder way up where the head should be on the other rig.



I don't even understand how this is a conversation that's happening beyond people taking Ercarp's totally flawed original comparison of "they look like they have the same pose at this one frame of their running animation" and running with it.

You can see at a glance that they are not the same rig, the Incubus/Dreadqueen rig has arms so long that their hands are at their knee and the wrist is below their butt, where the Dracthyr has normal humanoid proportions

[Mutineer]

Thank you so much for taking the time to do all that. I thought there might have been some merit to the idea that Blizzard reused the dracthyr's rigging for the incubus, but that's clearly not the case.

[Supertoster]

They are not the same skeleton, rig, or animations.

Here is the female dreadlord model (Dreadqueen.m2) and Incubus model lined up

(Video)
https://puu.sh/IYVnT/de42f29b2d.mp4

(Picture)



It's super easy to line them up, because they use the same rig, you can just make them the same size, line up the feet and knees and everything else lines up nearly exact (slight differences in animation cycle aside) because they are two models on the same rig. This is what two models that use the same rig look like. The are proportionally 1:1, because if they are not the same proportionally, the rig does not line up with various joins and moving parts that need to move, and the model will bend in weird places.


Here is the female dreadlord model and the Dracthyr model "lined up".

(Video)
https://puu.sh/IYVsy/b25ff46c4a.mp4

(Picture)




I put "lined up" in quotes, because you can't actually line them up, because they use two entire different rigs with totally different proportions. I lined up the feet and knees where they should be matched, as above, and nothing else matches or lines up because they aren't the same thing, or even close to the same rig. All that is similar about them is that they have the same digitigrade legs. Note that to even attempt to make the feet and knees line up, you have to size the Dracthyr much smaller, because it's a very tall model, where the Incubus/Dreadqueen are squat.

To drive home the point,
https://puu.sh/IYVx8/4aaecd108c.mp4
here is a 90 second video of me lining up all three, so you can see how easy it is to line up the Dreadqueen and Incubus, because they share a rig, and how you literally cannot line up the Dracthyr, because it has a totally different rig with wildly different proportions, so the legs do not line up, and to get them to even be close you have to have the Dracthyr's shoulder way up where the head should be on the other rig.



I don't even understand how this is a conversation that's happening beyond people taking Ercarp's totally flawed original comparison of "they look like they have the same pose at this one frame of their running animation" and running with it.

You can see at a glance that they are not the same rig, the Incubus/Dreadqueen rig has arms so long that their hands are at their knee and the wrist is below their butt, where the Dracthyr has normal humanoid proportions

I really don't want to upset you, but you just wasted your time. Because it is a genius move to try to prove that they have different animation rigs by lining up models.

You can line up Male Night Elf model with Male Nightborne and you will end up with the same conclusion that they they are different. However, if you compare their animation on wowhead you will see that they are exactly the same.

Or you may try to line up this guy https://www.wowhead.com/npc=184539/a...or#modelviewer with a Tauren model.
Surprise - they use the same animations.

Sometimes Blizz completely reuse old animations without any changes. For example, this guy https://www.wowhead.com/npc=183438/c...ct#modelviewer uses animation of Vrykuls from WotLK.

Sometimes Blizz use old animations and do little improvements to them. For example, animations of this guy https://www.wowhead.com/npc=184880/d...er#modelviewer are based on animations of this guy from Vanilla WoW https://www.wowhead.com/npc=7023/obs...el#modelviewer

So even if Dracthyr have little difference of animation it does no mean that they are not based on reused rig.

[Hitei]

I really don't want to upset you, but you just wasted your time. Because it is a genius move to try to prove that they have different animation rigs by lining up models.

You can line up Male Night Elf model with Male Nightborne and you will end up with the same conclusion that they they are different. However, if you compare their animation on wowhead you will see that they are exactly the same.

No?

1) That is not how animations work. The problem here is not that they visually don't line up, it's that every single proportion on the skeleton itself is wrong. The idle animation isn't stretching the arms to be longer on the Incubus, that would cause innumerable clipping issues and transition problems, the Incubus skeleton itself just has longer arms. The Dracthyr isn't taller because it's idle animation has its backbone lengthened and its shoulders narrower, it's because the base rig has a longer backbone and narrower shoulders.

2) You are wrong, you can line up the male Night elf model with the Male nightborne and clearly see that they have the same proportions, the Nightborne model is just slimmed down around the same rig.



https://puu.sh/IYWt6/c2efb6f883.mp4

See how that lines up exactly? Just like the Incubus and F.Dreadlord do? Because it's the same rig.... unlike Dracthyr.

So even if Dracthyr have little difference of animation it does no mean that they are not based on reused rig.

Again, the issue is not animation differences. Please actually read the post. The difference here is that their skeleton is not the same. They have different limb lengths, spine lengths, shoulder widths, hand structure, leg lengths, etc. They are not just using different stand animations, they are a totally different size with different bone length ratios.

[Supertoster]

And now turn them by 90 degree and try to line up.

Also, for Dracthyr: find a moment in a video when they do 3 "icy" claw attacks against enemies. Then compare it with female Nathrezim unarmed attack.

[Hitei]

And now turn them by 90 degree and try to line up.

They have the same proportions regardless of which way you turn them. Hello?

What is this absolutely retarded deflection attempt?

[Supertoster]

Are we looking at the same pictures?
They crearly don't line up. Also proportions mean nothing, we are talking about animations, not models. See other examples I showed previously.
There is a leg displacement just like in your example here:

To drive home the point,
https://puu.sh/IYVx8/4aaecd108c.mp4

Lining up of models prove nothing about their animations. There may be slight differences in overall form of the model (like with legs for Nelfs and Nightborne or legs for Dracthyr and Nathrezim), but it tells literally nothing about animations.
Because when we talk about animations we need to compare, surprisingly, animations, not models.

And I will repeat:

Sometimes Blizz use old animations and do little improvements to them. For example, animations of this guy https://www.wowhead.com/npc=184880/d...er#modelviewer are based on animations of this guy from Vanilla WoW https://www.wowhead.com/npc=7023/obs...el#modelviewer

For example, these two models have different walk animations. But if you look at majority of other animations you will see that they use the same moves, which tells us that this SL mob animations are based on classic mob animations.

[Hitei]

Are we looking at the same pictures?

Yes, we are looking at the same pictures. The pictures where the two are identical except for the Nightborne leaning back slightly and standing with one foot forward. The picture where they are two identical rigs, with modified models using two different stand animations. Unlike the Dracthyr and Incubus, who do not match up at all, because they are completely different models on entirely different rigging using different stand animations.

Because it's not just a matter of having a foot forward, you can line up their knees and feet and their shoulder is in the Incubus' head. Or line up their shoulders and hips and their feet are through the floor, because they aren't the same rigs and have different proportions

Also proportions mean nothing, we are talking about animations, not models. See other examples I showed previously.

No. We are talking about skeletal rigs. You know, the thing you are claiming is the same? But you're wrong in both cases, because they also aren't using the same animations.

https://i.imgur.com/clLA2UE.mp4
https://i.imgur.com/TxXcyoV.mp4

Look it's clear you don't have any actual counter-argument, so whatever. I'm done. Continue to make shit up so you have something to seethe and screech about.

[Supertoster]

Look it's clear you don't have any actual counter-argument, so whatever. I'm done

I don't need more, because I've already shown other examples that you keep ignoring.

[Skayth]

Not his fault all trans people are furries

Sure they are, just like how all gamers are horrible misogynist and bigots.
and that is sarcasm, unlike ur post