ONLY 4 new dungeons for M+ initially

[Nymrohd]

For old yes, but what about the 8 dungeons from DF that will rotate?

If 4 classes a have bis in one set and 4 have bis in the other set their performance will be more dependant on which season you play in.

Which is why you use the other four to balance things out.

But let's not pretend that the meta for high level M+ is varied and flexible. For 20+ the meta usually rounds down to ONE tank (and maybe another with a quarter of representation), same for healers and maybe 4-6 dps represented in total. If anything, itemization will shake up the meta a bit.

[Kumorii]

Which is why you use the other four to balance things out.

But let's not pretend that the meta for high level M+ is varied and flexible. For 20+ the meta usually rounds down to ONE tank (and maybe another with a quarter of representation), same for healers and maybe 4-6 dps represented in total. If anything, itemization will shake up the meta a bit.

Not sure what that has to do with my point...
I'm not talking about role setup.

I'm talking about losing significant performance based on which season it is and what m+ dungeons are in rotation.

"Balance it" is a good idea... But doesn't say anything. I'm curious on how blizzard plans to balance it or their solution to this.

[Nymrohd]

Not sure what that has to do with my point...
I'm not talking about role setup.

I'm talking about losing significant performance based on which season it is and what m+ dungeons are in rotation.

"Balance it" is a good idea... But doesn't say anything. I'm curious on how blizzard plans to balance it or their solution to this.

I think the idea is, it has never really been their concern to balance M+ beyond 15 and at 15 and below balance is not as much of a concern because the content is moderately challenging.

[crusadernero]

Ok but the core difference is that some people just want to do the 8 new dungeons instead of having to play old content on launch. It doesn't matter if the "experience" is new.

We can do that while leveling and HC/m0 at max lvl. We get used to and bored of these dungeons rather quickly and I would bet alot of those that engange alot in m+ will already know all there is to know about the dungeons long before launch. 8 new or 4+4 wont matter there.

Many players will also lvl alts, so you see the dungeons there to.

What im trying to say; While you are correct we all want new stuff, these dungeons grow old quickly. It wont take many runs before it gets boring.

[deucecorp]

Nothing really changed, those people that wanted more content, or should i say fair value for their money simply voted with their wallets leaving "pleasant" exit message for blizzard.

I kinda always find it funny when suddenly making 4 dungeons per 6-9 months is somehow "wildly unrealistic" for multi dollar company.

I don't even care about my wallet.. Constantly subbed, stopped playing in September, now came back in April SIX MONTHS later, took me 3-4 weeks to KSM 2 chars from scratch, one is 270+ mythic raider level with tier 4 bonus and optimised stats. I don't even have a guild, just being a pugging filthy casual lol.
Yes sure I can farm Mythic Halondrus for a year, been there, done that in the past, now I'd skip that.

I remember BIG promises and apologies around WoD and Legion too, about the content draught and that they will release expansions faster. here we go again.. can't see that happening.
The multi billionaire company should just push out the new expac in let's say august, or throw a 2 boss raid and a dungeon right now, because why not? as per their promises. now most people are scared of a rushed expansion. what's that? the players are in the corner? lol???

played 1 month of tbc too during the winter, (with new character) cleared all raids with a nice guild, so I had all them nostalgia there.

yes, nothing changed ever. you are 100% right in this. and people always believing all their lies and parroting it such as "Dragonflight development started when you were born, muh bwoi!". just read around here in the comments.

[huth]

hmm, ok. maybe you should not discuss about a game you not play ?

GV = Greater Vault (see google for details)

and no, i don’t fully believe they do different „complete“ loot list for 2 sets of dungeons. theoretically, yes. they could. as you said, if they do it right. and that „doing right“ is what i am sceptical about, these days. but who knows. we will see.

They would do that automatically by virtue of the loot list being tied to the specific dungeons anyway.

[Rageonit]

Blizzard isn't mitigating anything. This problem was persistent ever since M+ was introduced and came obvious in very first season. Since BfA i was saying they should add legion dungeons to it, same thing in SL. Low dungeon pool even if they literally make 8 new dungeons each season is still going to be a problem. Making it 4 new 4 old makes things even worse.

Yes problem is those pesky players that would like to do things they actually want instead of what blizzard wants them to do.

You don't play the game and it's blatantly obvious you have little understading of what you're talking about. Manageable dungeon pool in a single season is an advantage of the system; having all expansion dungeons in a single pool would make it a miserable experience for any kind of casual players. You do not learn to play a m+ key by running a dungeon once every four weeks, it doesn't work like that. Hardcore players would easily cope, but for your average PUG it would be a disaster, with people failing on every kind of mechanic - and the more casual you are, the bigger would be the problem. No, you want a limited dungeon pool for a single season to make it a smoother experience for everyone involved, but you do not want stale seasons and two years of running the same thing and refarming the same gear. It is super obvious to anyone who actually plays the game and does m+, which is not you. Your input is actually damaging for all the people you try to speak for, and it's at the same time hilarious and sad to see how clueless you are.

[Dractier]

hmm, ok. maybe you should not discuss about a game you not play ?

GV = Greater Vault (see google for details)

and no, i don’t fully believe they do different „complete“ loot list for 2 sets of dungeons. theoretically, yes. they could. as you said, if they do it right. and that „doing right“ is what i am sceptical about, these days. but who knows. we will see.

Just because I don’t play this current expansion that is god awful doesn’t mean I don’t understand the game at it’s core and am able to contribute. Why do I have to play a game to discuss it, that’s stupid lol

[huth]

Just because I don’t play this current expansion that is god awful doesn’t mean I don’t understand the game at it’s core and am able to contribute. Why do I have to play a game to discuss it, that’s stupid lol

Not really. Some intricacies may well be lost on you by not engaging with them yourself, especially those others take for granted.

Calling an expansion "god awful" when you aren't even playing it is also rather uncalled for. How would you know? You're not actually playing it. It might sound awful, but a lot of the reports are also rather... incomplete.

[Dractier]

Not really. Some intricacies may well be lost on you by not engaging with them yourself, especially those others take for granted.

Calling an expansion "god awful" when you aren't even playing it is also rather uncalled for. How would you know? You're not actually playing it. It might sound awful, but a lot of the reports are also rather... incomplete.

You can watch people play the game, you can see the systems in a game, you can literally be on a place like this and listen to discussion about the game, and after playing a game since 2004 it's fairly easy to imagine how it is being played.

Don't be silly with this "YoU DoNt PlAy It HoW Do YoU KnOw", come on man it isn't that hard to imagine the issues with locking in systems like covenants or leaving in grindy borrowed powered systems.

[Alroxas]

Curious how they solve gear since you often have some bis items from m+ and you clearly want to make it as high as possible for the best possible ilvl on said item... if your bis items are from the excluded dungeons... well, tough shit I guess.
I wonder if this is a sign that gear will be more deterministic... completely badge based. Thus you can buy the gear from the other dungeons.
I would find that quite boring though... Maybe they add the loot tables from 4 of the dungeons to the other 4? That would make RNG more of a bitch due to pool size. You could sorta target your items by grinding the dungeon you wanted now..

Lots of questions.

BiS gear would then change from season to season. For example, if SL Season 3 didn't have IQD/Chanegling trinkets, then other trinkets would be BiS over them since the highest ilv of that trinket would be from the previous season (basically 252 cap from GV).

However this does mean that for a short period of time, you'll have some crossover where a previous Season's BiS may be better than current season gearing until you pass a certain point in ilv.

There could also exist the chance (where Blizzard doesn't do enough balancing) that even a previous season's BiS Trinket remains BiS even at the lower ilv because of scaling issues. This would be pretty bad as there would be no way for players to get that item until the following season (assuming that dungeon rotation changes back).

- - - Updated - - -

yep, raises some questions. also not really get why they dont rotate all 8 just on a 2 weeks base (like some calender event). if you played 1-4 all the time in S1 and 5-8 all the time in S2, it feels, at least to me, not better, than some random 4 out of 8, changing every 2 weeks.

A few issues come to mind immediately:

First, GV consideration for loot tables -
GV would need to look at either the loot table for all 16 dungeons (the 8 new DF + 8 "old" renewed dungeons) which would be a PITA or the GV would need to focus on the loot table that exists from the previous week. And since dungeons are rotating on a 2 week period, your GV would have varied loot (1 week behind) every 2 weeks.

Next consider the affix rotation as it applies to dungeons.

Currently we're on a 12 week affix rotation. Swapping in a 2 week rotation would be that you need 24 weeks for both sets of dungeons to run through 1 set of affixes.

So in the theoretical example where week 2 has the easiest combo of affix for Dungeon 1... well because of the 2 week rotation, you'll need to wait until week 26 to see that same rotation again.

Compare that to the current system where it would you would need to wait until week 14 instead.

[kaminaris]

You don't play the game and it's blatantly obvious you have little understading of what you're talking about.

Anymore. Dude you realize how stupid it sounds to talk like that to literal addon dev that maintained his addons since end of mop till beginning of SL? What is even funnier I have all KSMs (some of them multiple chars) until SL and all CMs done, all mage towers, multiple cutting edges, enormous amount of battle pets, all classes, all class campaigns, loremaster, insane in membrane, rare timewalking mount, AH mount and god knows how many hours of other shit.

Yes i dont play game anymore
Guess why?

Because of shit decisions like this. Its its your lack of insight is what is damaging to community and game as whole, you simply want it to die.

[Rageonit]

Anymore. Dude you realize how stupid it sounds to talk like that to literal addon dev that maintained his addons since end of mop till beginning of SL? What is even funnier I have all KSMs (some of them multiple chars) until SL and all CMs done, all mage towers, multiple cutting edges, enormous amount of battle pets, all classes, all class campaigns, loremaster, insane in membrane, rare timewalking mount, AH mount and god knows how many hours of other shit.

Makes it even more baffling that you don't understand why your ideas are bad.

[huth]

You can watch people play the game, you can see the systems in a game, you can literally be on a place like this and listen to discussion about the game, and after playing a game since 2004 it's fairly easy to imagine how it is being played.

Watching a movie is not comparable to playing a game, sorry. You still only have second hand information at best.

[Alroxas]

Its its your lack of insight is what is damaging to community and game as whole, you simply want it to die.

Some would argue that because non-current players, Also lack the insight regarding the minutiae details that of these systems.

GV (Great Vault) for instance is quite a change from bonus loot rolls and the older M+ only weekly cache. Additionally, in 9.2 GV + Creation Catalyst significantly changes gear acquisition, especially in regards to tier gear.

Similarly the DF M+ season change seems positive in that rotating the active M+ dungeons provide less dungeon fatigue than the current system we have in SL.

Don't get me wrong, if Blizzard could offer 6 brand new dungeons every season, we would all be happy but that's not even an option under consideration right now.

To boil it down, here are your choices:

A) 8 DF dungeons for M+ for the entire length of the xpac (plus the eventual mega-dungeon added/split into 2 M+)

B) 4 (of the 8) DF dungeons for M+ season 1 with the remaining 4 dungeons from older content, which then gets swapped out for the other half of the 8 DF dungeons with another set of 4 dungeons from older content.

Of these two choices, which would bring more variety to players? Cause less "dungeon fatigue"? Potentially change up BiS gearing from dungeons?

[Dractier]

Watching a movie is not comparable to playing a game, sorry. You still only have second hand information at best.

That’s not how games work but okay man lol.

[Kuntantee]

i think its a neat idea, this way you wont run the same dungeon in s1 and s2, still get 8 dungeons and there will be some relevance to old dungeons, maybe it will lead to redisign some pre m+ dungeons to the systems, which would be nice

This is what people call "drip feeding".

- - - Updated - - -

I think there is a better alternative.

Season 1: 8 new dungeons
Season 2: 4 new dungeons + 4 old dungeons
Season 3: other 4 new dungeons + 4 new old-dungeon

[Alroxas]

I think there is a better alternative.

Season 1: 8 new dungeons
Season 2: 4 new dungeons + 4 old dungeons
Season 3: other 4 new dungeons + 4 new old-dungeon

For Season 2's "4 new dungeons" do you mean 4 brand new dungeons or 4 DF dungeons + 4 old ones?

Also how do you counter the argument that folks say that Season 2 picked the bad dungeons to keep while leaving the "good dungeons" behind?

Granted that argument can still be made with the current plan where it's

Season 1: 4 DF dungeons (out of 8) + 4 old dungeons
Season 2: The other 4 DF dungeons (out of 8) + 4 more old dungeons
Season 3: Season 1 + Mega-dungeon converted to M+ (2 more dungeons)
Season 4: Season 2 + Mega-dungeon converted to M+ (2 more dungeons) + ???

[Trenbolone]

Don't get me wrong, if Blizzard could offer 6 brand new dungeons every season, we would all be happy but that's not even an option under consideration right now.

Honestly, why not?! There is no torghast thing in 10.0, there is no borrowed power system.. 10.0 is looking rather simply designed (not a bad thing), but should they not use this opportunity to push more dungeons, for example? A mega dungeon every major patch is doable and thats basically 2 m+. 6 brand new M+ is perfectly doable in my opinion. Its just about priorities. Blizzard is the biggest and wealthiest it ever was. It could absolutely done and no, it would not cost us raid tier. This joke and honestly awful response is just a meme.

[Kuntantee]

For Season 2's "4 new dungeons" do you mean 4 brand new dungeons or 4 DF dungeons + 4 old ones?

4 DF dungeons 4 old (reworked) dungeons

Also how do you counter the argument that folks say that Season 2 picked the bad dungeons to keep while leaving the "good dungeons" behind?

So 4 "bad" DF dungeons are part of season 2 and 4 "good" DF dungeons are part of season 3. There are a lot of assumptions in this argument but at least with my plan you get to see all and have one good and one "bad" season.

Granted that argument can still be made with the current plan where it's

I just want to see the new stuff man. Do not think too much about it.