STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[Coldkil]

Perhaps. I'm going to assume that acquiring anything close to that level of gear from world content would take much, much longer to accomplish. Like 2-3 months longer. Maybe people would hate that but not everyone would. The idea is based more on "everything you do in the game" gives you something so every time you play you will progress in some way. It's not so different from people objecting to grinds except that people could choose the content they want to do and avoid the content they don't care for. Making everything you do in the game count for something can't be a bad thing. The "reward" for doing things would be based around difficulty. So given some target number raids would certainly give more than world quests, a lot more. But if you were persistent enough you could save up and get whatever you want from some vendor doing the content you prefer.

Yeah, i wasn't really trying to design a solution. It was just an extreme example to say "people don't really care about the content, they want the optimal reward path". Even if yous et up a system where doing everything counts, people will just figure out what's the fastest and stick to that. Much like how Covenants were designed on the premise people will choose based on preference and not performance and we all have seen how it ended.

It will always end like this. If it was a currency faramable in multiple places without a cap, people would feel "forced" to do everything to sta on par even if they don't like it. My point was just that M+ are not popular because of the content type, but only because a) they have a consistent and streamlined reward system and b) they require literally zero commitement to the game as you could be done by doing a couple runs a week that don't even need o be "successful" (as in beating the time).

The only real solution to this is for Blizzard to make gear less relevant. And in M+ it is already in a way, since the ilvl rewards are way higher than the one you need to complete certain content, and after a threshold it just scales up based on skill and will of the players. Which i find totally perfect (plus it has also a currency system that works also as BLP).

It's the raids that have at this point a very outdated and not really "fair" difficulty/rewards scheme. I'm all for setting HC the same as 15s and design Mythic the same way M+ past 15 is (maybe even with scaling difficulty? don't know if it makes sense mostly because a raid takes hours to clear compared to a 20/30 minutes dungeon run).

[arkanon]

It's the raids that have at this point a very outdated and not really "fair" difficulty/rewards scheme. .

How is the hardest content rewarding the best gear not "fair"?

[Coldkil]

How is the hardest content rewarding the best gear not "fair"?

Prefix: i may have used the word "fair" in the wrong way. I'll try to explain. I also use a lot of quotes to identify terms i intend to use but not literally, more as a concept. Don't know if it makes sense.

The "issue" is that other game content rewards you better for much easier stuff. Mythic gear is for the most part "useless" - once you consistently farm Mythic, you don't really need gear or farming at all cause you have "beaten" it. So the reward is "less rewarding" by itself. Also "best gear" is debatable, since weapons/trinkets or other BiS can easily come from M+ due to stats allocation/procs/etc (until they artificially inflate such things in raid dropped ones to be flat out better).

I mean - raid structure in a bubble is just fine. You get to a difficulty, gear up and move to the next. But unfortunately you have M+ giving you Mythic ilvl gear for much less hassle, crafted legendaries, crafted tier sets; all things that technically undermine the rewards of Mythic raids.

It's a delicate balance. That's why in my opinion the Mythic raid rewards should move away from being ilvl increases and being really about prestige. I don't really even see how progressive "nerfing" of Mythic is a good thing anyway - when gear caps at a point, the the fight can be designed around the fact that's the gear cap and be much more balanced. And to people saying "but then everyone would ignore Mythic", guess what, people already do and the same happens with M+ past 15 because it's something a fraction of a fraction of players actually partakes in.

Also worth considering: it's not only that Mythic raids are harder than running a 15. The commitment/logistics required to raid at a high level are something most people just isn't willing to do anymore. So when M+ that are easily puggable and don't rely on a schedule give you very comparable rewards (if not better in some cases) people will just do that because it's less of an hassle.

It's literally the same debate that was running when they introduced 10/25 man raids. People were mad because keeping up a 25man raid was much harder than a 10man, so Blizzard ended setting the rewards for 10man lower than 25man otherwise most people wouldn't have even bothered to try 25man. Now we have flex normal/HC and Mythic, yet people for the most part go in M+ and ignore raids.

Another factor is that M+ is a self-sustained system. You can just do M+ and gear up at a decently fast pace with more than reasonable chances to get to gear cap even by yourself and at the pace you set. If you raid only, you have a progression path but it's completely barred by the fact you have one weekly chance at the loot and you're done. You can go weeks without looting anything - meanwhile you can spam another M+ to aim for specific stuff (and it's easier because dungeon loot tables are much smaller). And when this happens, raiders go into M+ because this way at least they can get comparable gear they weren't able to loot in raid.

[arkanon]

Prefix: i may have used the word "fair" in the wrong way. I'll try to explain. I also use a lot of quotes to identify terms i intend to use but not literally, more as a concept. Don't know if it makes sense.

The "issue" is that other game content rewards you better for much easier stuff. Mythic gear is for the most part "useless" - once you consistently farm Mythic, you don't really need gear or farming at all cause you have "beaten" it. So the reward is "less rewarding" by itself. Also "best gear" is debatable, since weapons/trinkets or other BiS can easily come from M+ due to stats allocation/procs/etc (until they artificially inflate such things in raid dropped ones to be flat out better).

I mean - raid structure in a bubble is just fine. You get to a difficulty, gear up and move to the next. But unfortunately you have M+ giving you Mythic ilvl gear for much less hassle, crafted legendaries, crafted tier sets; all things that technically undermine the rewards of Mythic raids.

It's a delicate balance. That's why in my opinion the Mythic raid rewards should move away from being ilvl increases and being really about prestige. I don't really even see how progressive "nerfing" of Mythic is a good thing anyway - when gear caps at a point, the the fight can be designed around the fact that's the gear cap and be much more balanced. And to people saying "but then everyone would ignore Mythic", guess what, people already do and the same happens with M+ past 15 because it's something a fraction of a fraction of players actually partakes in.

Also worth considering: it's not only that Mythic raids are harder than running a 15. The commitment/logistics required to raid at a high level are something most people just isn't willing to do anymore. So when M+ that are easily puggable and don't rely on a schedule give you very comparable rewards (if not better in some cases) people will just do that because it's less of an hassle.

It's literally the same debate that was running when they introduced 10/25 man raids. People were mad because keeping up a 25man raid was much harder than a 10man, so Blizzard ended setting the rewards for 10man lower than 25man otherwise most people wouldn't have even bothered to try 25man. Now we have flex normal/HC and Mythic, yet people for the most part go in M+ and ignore raids.

Another factor is that M+ is a self-sustained system. You can just do M+ and gear up at a decently fast pace with more than reasonable chances to get to gear cap even by yourself and at the pace you set. If you raid only, you have a progression path but it's completely barred by the fact you have one weekly chance at the loot and you're done. You can go weeks without looting anything - meanwhile you can spam another M+ to aim for specific stuff (and it's easier because dungeon loot tables are much smaller). And when this happens, raiders go into M+ because this way at least they can get comparable gear they weren't able to loot in raid.

Honestly i think you need to rethink your stance, because what you are saying is "mythic raiding rewards are an issue" but then when you explain the issue, M+ is ACTUALLY the issue. Honestly, if you nerfed the rewards from M+, or made the best gear drop from a +22 (for example) you "issue" goes away.

I absolutely agree that the process of obtaining loot from a mythic raid is far more complex for everyone involved than a m+15. No argument from me at all on that, i just think you are not really sure what the issue actually is.

[chiddie]

As your first sentence, what do you think raiding and keys IS besides upgrading your gear.

As for the rest, congrats. Hitting the end of your progression path for a patch is not a bad thing. There's nothing wrong with being done and quitting. What I do see is wrong is coming into a multi player game and expecting to get the best of the best from soloing. No. This isn't a single player game. That should be reserved for people who do stuff with other people. Open world stuff is more generous than it's ever been. You can get your legos without raiding that before Legion was a complete impossibility. You can get conduits up to normal raid tier from reputation. You can get normal raid tier gear from chests. You can make tier without even looking at the raid, something that's never been done before.

Open world stuff is not solo content. It’s simply non instanced content that CAN be also soloed to an extent. I see a lot of players in ow, I chat with them, help them, even group with them for tougher rares or to farm tokens/whatever.

I don’t know where this “multiplayer = instanced content only kkthx bai” came from but it’s just plain wrong.

You are mixing multiplaying with difficulty, a quite common mistake here on mmo-champ.

Oh and if there’s nothing wrong for me being “done” after two months in a patch, it should be for Blizzard, because if I’m done I will just unsubscribe and they won’t see any money from me.

[arkanon]

Open world stuff is not solo content.

Thats like saying raids are not group content, because they CAN be solod.

[Coldkil]

Honestly i think you need to rethink your stance, because what you are saying is "mythic raiding rewards are an issue" but then when you explain the issue, M+ is ACTUALLY the issue. Honestly, if you nerfed the rewards from M+, or made the best gear drop from a +22 (for example) you "issue" goes away.

I absolutely agree that the process of obtaining loot from a mythic raid is far more complex for everyone involved than a m+15. No argument from me at all on that, i just think you are not really sure what the issue actually is.

I'm not saying that Mythic rewards are an issue. I'm actually saying Mythic rewards are not rewarding enough. But also given how the gameplay loop is now and is apparently really popular and set in stone i think it would be easier to make the Mythic rewards about prestige instead of player power.

I agree that would be better to move the M+ ilvl rewards up to +20s or similar, but i think it would cause a huge uproar because you're "taking away" loot from a lot of people (you know what i mean) and Blizzard cannot really afford that. Players are much more prone to leave for other games now that they have the options than to endure through systems - reason why DF is taking a huge U turn from what has been from Legion onwards.

In 2004 when WoW launched it was both heavily praised and criticized for the fact it removed a lot of the hurdles any MMO had at the time - like perma death, losing gear and/or xp when dying - and it earned the definition of being a "casual MMO". And it proved to be the right strategy because while Everquest was the most popular MMO with 10k people at release and 500k people at its peak, WoW basically destroyed that immediately, set a new standard for the whole gaming industry and even now that it's in a dire state still has like 6 times the people EQ had at its peak.

So, they know what is the path to make the game better - again you see what they're planning for DF. To me, shifting the focus from a pure vertical progression to a slightly more horizontal one is a good idea (but that's just me).

One thing in one game i find to be really really good. In GW2 raids are basically just for bragging rights - no loot in there is better than anything you can farm or craft in the open world. But the raid drops (other than the skins) have a very interesting property: they can have their stats rerolled as much as you like. I think something like this could work well in WoW: Mythic raid drops have the same ilvl but since you can reroll their stats, you can minmax the shit out of them and actually gain some power. You can also reroll them based on what kind of content you're doing adding the great QoL of having no need for a full different set of gear.

Maybe it's just me daydreaming. I don't pretend this is a solution at all - but it would be interesting nontheless.

[chiddie]

Thats like saying raids are not group content, because they CAN be solod.

Uh? Which raids apart from old non relevant ones can be soloed?

Are we really debating about ow content not being multiplayer content also?

[arkanon]

Uh? Which raids apart from old non relevant ones can be soloed?

Are we really debating about ow content not being multiplayer content also?

I NEVER said OW content is not multiplayer content. You DID say it wasnt solo content though:

Open world stuff is not solo content. .

[MoanaLisa]

Yeah, i wasn't really trying to design a solution. It was just an extreme example to say "people don't really care about the content, they want the optimal reward path". Even if yous et up a system where doing everything counts, people will just figure out what's the fastest and stick to that. Much like how Covenants were designed on the premise people will choose based on preference and not performance and we all have seen how it ended.

Perhaps. I'm not certain that the crowd of people who don't do M+ and normal/heroic/mythic raids now will all of a sudden change their minds and leap at the chance to go faster. They are already passing up the best gear in the game and quitting after a few weeks. It may be true that min/maxers will drive themselves nuts doing stuff to stay up with others. I'm less worried about them because common sense tells you that min/maxers are relatively few in number. If that's what they want to do then fine. That's on them.

I'll admit that while I find "everything you do matters" is a better deal for players it seems as if it would be better business for Blizzard. Those that buy and expansion and stay for a month might stay for a month or two longer. That's a lot to leave on the table if they continue with what they've done for eighteen years. For those who say it can't work, it works fine in other MMO titles.

[Coldkil]

Perhaps. I'm not certain that the crowd of people who don't do M+ and normal/heroic/mythic raids now will all of a sudden change their minds and leap at the chance to go faster. They are already passing up the best gear in the game and quitting after a few weeks. It may be true that min/maxers will drive themselves nuts doing stuff to stay up with others. I'm less worried about them because common sense tells you that min/maxers are relatively few in number. If that's what they want to do then fine. That's on them.

I'll admit that while I find "everything you do matters" is a better deal for players it seems as if it would be better business for Blizzard. Those that buy and expansion and stay for a month might stay for a month or two longer. That's a lot to leave on the table if they continue with what they've done for eighteen years. For those who say it can't work, it works fine in other MMO titles.

Well, i'm not even considering people who don't partake in endgame content other than a rare try and stick to world content. As you said, that kind of player just logs in for a while and very likely will leave the game after a short time anyway, so whatever solution they can come up with they won't be affected by it, since they don't really are a part of the target playerbase.

Though i both agree and don't really mind if people is able to get Mythic ilvl gear from doing WQs only. I stopped caring about gear when i saw that there are just better ways to get decked other than raiding and everyone was basically more than fine with that while i was complaining about "free Mythic gear for 20 minutes pugged dungeon runs".

Really, the playerbase could get much better if the gear ilvl becomes much less relevant. The game is already just about being the fastest at clearing content and for that farming ilvl is actually detrimental to the race.

[chiddie]

I NEVER said OW content is not multiplayer content. You DID say it wasnt solo content though:

Of course I intended “it is not ONLY solo content”. It’s quite clear that ow has many solo components.

[Royru]

Uh? Which raids apart from old non relevant ones can be soloed?

Are we really debating about ow content not being multiplayer content also?

There has been numerous bosses throughout the years that were able to be solod. Even when they are the current content bosses

[chiddie]

There has been numerous bosses throughout the years that were able to be solod. Even when they are the current content bosses

Yes, with a particular combo of class, spec and gear.

Not really a proof that raids can be soloed. We are rapidly derailing in the stupid field “one man can do 0-100 in 9,70 so it’s feasible after all”.

Point is that open world content IS multiplayer content. So the argument “best gear should come through group content” does not apply, sorry. If Blizzard can only provide decent INSTANCED group content it’s not players’ fault.

[Royru]

Yes, with a particular combo of class, spec and gear.

Not really a proof that raids can be soloed. We are rapidly derailing in the stupid field “one man can do 0-100 in 9,70 so it’s feasible after all”.

Point is that open world content IS multiplayer content. So the argument “best gear should come through group content” does not apply, sorry. If Blizzard can only provide decent INSTANCED group content it’s not players’ fault.

Lol okay, dude I think you need to look past his example and understand what he was attempting to say. I hate it when people don't understand an analogy.

You are taking his analogy which was just meant to show you something and you're analyzing it as a literal response and it's a little weird.

[chiddie]

Lol okay, dude I think you need to look past his example and understand what he was attempting to say. I hate it when people don't understand an analogy.

You are taking his analogy which was just meant to show you something and you're analyzing it as a literal response and it's a little weird.

Words have a meaning, else let’s just use the same word for everything and gg.

Instanced content is MP? Yes.
Open world content is MP? Yes.

Both can be soloed to an extent (Torghast, Scenarios, Visions, Adventures the first type, almost everything but rares the second).

The main difference is difficulty level.

Of course I understood his analogy, I just wanted to point out that people doing ow are still playing mp content, even if it can be soloed 90%. I had more interactions in two months of ZM than in 6 months of M+ pugging.

[Royru]

Words have a meaning, else let’s just use the same word for everything and gg.

Instanced content is MP? Yes.
Open world content is MP? Yes.

Both can be soloed to an extent (Torghast, Scenarios, Visions, Adventures the first type, almost everything but rares the second).

The main difference is difficulty level.

Of course I understood his analogy, I just wanted to point out that people doing ow are still playing mp content, even if it can be soloed 90%. I had more interactions in two months of ZM than in 6 months of M+ pugging.

The guy you were responding to didn’t say anything about OW, he was simply calling out how your statement “open world content is not solo content” was a silly thing to say.

Of course open world content is solo content. It’s made and designed around you having the ability to completely solo it. So when he said “that’s like saying just because you can solo some raids, that raids are solo content”, the analogy he is bringing to you is that just because you are ABLE to group up for open world content, doesn’t mean it’s specifically designed for it, much like raids aren’t specifically designed around you soloing it.

You see I don’t think you DID actually understand his analogy otherwise you wouldn’t have taken it so literally and I wouldn’t have to be explaining this right now.

[Osmeric]

Those are like flight simulators, not fantasy RPGs. Everyone who's whining about not getting good gear for doing trivial content should just go play one of those flight sims instead. Good gear belongs locked away safely behind hard content in MMORPGs, if you want it easier too fucking bad.

Aw look, a No True Scotsman argument.

[Royru]

Aw look, a No True Scotsman argument.

9/10 times when people do this everyone should just write it off as how this person accepts that they are wrong.

People on the internet rarely admit that they are wrong.

He went from “MMOs are only when raids are massive”

To “mmos have raids”

To “only popular mmos have raids”

To “only popular mmos that are in the fantasy rpg style have raids”

To “only popular mmos that are in the fantasy rpg style that I LIKE have raids”

He moved the goal post so many times it’s just easier if you imagine that this is how he is admitting he is wrong. He is just fishing for any minor win at this point

[chiddie]

The guy you were responding to didn’t say anything about OW, he was simply calling out how your statement “open world content is not solo content” was a silly thing to say.

Of course open world content is solo content. It’s made and designed around you having the ability to completely solo it. So when he said “that’s like saying just because you can solo some raids, that raids are solo content”, the analogy he is bringing to you is that just because you are ABLE to group up for open world content, doesn’t mean it’s specifically designed for it, much like raids aren’t specifically designed around you soloing it.

You see I don’t think you DID actually understand his analogy otherwise you wouldn’t have taken it so literally and I wouldn’t have to be explaining this right now.

Open world can be soloed but you’re not alone. You CAN play with others or not. Instanced grouped content is for groups only.

But again, the problem is not solo vs groups, problem is that solo content is brain dead for the most part, by design.

But it does NOT have to be like this by a divine law, it’s a precise choice from Blizzard.