STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[KrayZ33]

In my opinion, they shouldn't. Nobody should ever have to download 3rd party stuff in order to play a game, especially with the amount of malware out there and how many have been "confirmed" safe but were not. The game should come equipped with every tool you need. It will be up to you to figure out which tool is the right one for the right time.

That's what they are doing, basically.

Dragonflight will introduce even more "mods" to the base UI and the game has plenty of warnings, screenshakes or whatever even if you don't use DBM.
For a while I didn't even notice that I was playing without DBM/Bigwigs in Legion. I just thought they changed the mechanic announcements.

[Necromantic]

Read your signature.

What does that have to do with this topic?

That's what they are doing, basically.

Dragonflight will introduce even more "mods" to the base UI and the game has plenty of warnings, screenshakes or whatever even if you don't use DBM.
For a while I didn't even notice that I was playing without DBM/Bigwigs in Legion. I just thought they changed the mechanic announcements.

Good.

[Aydinx2]

Meh. I actually don't find it "impressive" at all. Maybe that's the difference. You pay your $15 in support of Blizzard and the game, and you play the content you like to play, the way you like to play it (casual, competitive, whatever). I don't care. You're the best X-class on your server? Kudos. You and I aren't going to cross paths unless you happen to buy something of mine on the AH (in which case, "thanks!"). I'm not jealous of your gear. I'm not jealous of your mount. I'm not jealous of whatever the hell your achievement score is. I just don't care. Nothing about what *I* do has anything to do with you. I want some opportunity to improve my gear to get through my dailies and run older raids for fun and profit faster doing the thinks I like to do (which again, does not include raiding, PvP or mythic keys).

I pay my $15 a month too, I support the game, and I play the content I want to. I have every recipe for every crafting profession and I work the living crap out of the AH, I'm top 3 on my server for collecting pets, I have the Esteemed title for 100 exalted reps. So what? None of that took any particular skill. It just took time and effort, and I don't see why effort, in any form, shouldn't be rewarded in some way. You'll get the higher ilvl gear sooner because you did the level of content that gave you access to it quicker. I'm a tortoise, you're a hare. Why does my getting to the finish line (272+) bother you so much? Do you think that just because I finally hit 272 I'm going to start jumping into your rated matches or your key runs and/or ruining raid night? No. Why? Because I don't DO any of that stuff and don't enjoy it. 272 gear isn't going to suddenly make any of that fun for me, but I think I deserve to be rewarded for my effort (such as it is) nonetheless because while it isn't the same kind of time and effort you invested, it was time and effort nonetheless.

Maybe try to think of a similar situation, but in a different context. Look at a low wage earner. Maybe they're unloading trucks, hauling mulch, cleaning hotel rooms, sacking groceries and collecting carts ... whatever. Does that person not "work"? If that person saves for several years and finally saves enough in 2024 to buy a 2018 Infiniti with 200,000 miles on it, are they not deserving of that car because you happened to work hard yourself, doing a different job that paid better, and you bought your Infiniti brand new off the lot in '18? Do you think people are comparing you to that low wage earner when you both get out of your matching Infiniti's in the grocery store parking lot at the same time? Does the low wage earner buying the same car 6 years later strip all the enjoyment you ever got out of yours? Does it diminish your "accomplishment"?

Yes, you getting the same rewards as I do for easier content DOES diminish the value of those rewards. It means there exists no reason for me to do the harder content. Literally since the start of Vanilla you got rewarded with better gear for doing harder content. That's the most simple effort->reward system in videogames.

your car comparison doesn't work because in that scenario both people get rewarded with a currency: money. I'm fine with a system where we both farm badges but the person doing the easier content has to farm for longer. That makes perfect sense. But in this scenario me doing the harder content is rewarded with faster loot. That's still a better reward because it rewards me with saved time or simply being ahead in ilvl of others who take it slower.

I'm not fine with the easier content dropping the same loot that the harder content drops immediately, because that means we can both get the same reward on the same day but it took me more effort. It would make no sense for me to do the harder content then, and plenty of us like doing harder content for better rewards.

On the topic of LFR: I am fine with the current system (assuming you can get Tier tokens without being forced to do LFR). People who want LFR to be easier need to accept that with easier content come worse rewards.

[Relapses]

Then that is your problem. Boosting should not be a solution to your problem.

Oh okay. Guess I should just do 11 toons' worth of dailies, right? Because fuck having fun in a video game, the only right way to play doesn't involve ever providing a service for other players.

What a joke.

[Aydinx2]

You understand they want to kill the mythic bosses for bis loot though, right? So for some reason, many feel they are too good for lfr, but clearly not good enough for mythic, but they want the mythic loot.

Good thing we have 2 steps in between that then. Normal is easy enough to pug it right now.
The problem is that people aren't social, so they do LFR and then expect to easily get into Normal pugs without preparation/forming a group/having achievements etc because none of those were needed for LFR.

They are literally playing a different game than what they want to play, because they refuse to be social in an MMO.

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Oh okay. Guess I should just do 11 toons' worth of dailies, right? Because fuck having fun in a video game, the only right way to play doesn't involve ever providing a service for other players.

What a joke.

You're choosing to keep 11 alts up to date. I don't get how you think this isn't 100% your own problem. Even weirder still is how you want to play 11 characters but don't actually want to "play" them so you instead take shortcuts.

Pretty sure you're addicted.

[Necromantic]

because they refuse to be social in an MMO.

This has never been a requirement, ever. People take that term way out of context. There are other people... it doesn't mean you HAVE to interact with them. MMOs can be fully enjoyed solo. Those who do not want to interact with people are welcome to stick to LFR.

[Karawaka]

Yes, you getting the same rewards as I do for easier content DOES diminish the value of those rewards. It means there exists no reason for me to do the harder content. Literally since the start of Vanilla you got rewarded with better gear for doing harder content. That's the most simple effort->reward system in videogames.

your car comparison doesn't work because in that scenario both people get rewarded with a currency: money. I'm fine with a system where we both farm badges but the person doing the easier content has to farm for longer. That makes perfect sense. But in this scenario me doing the harder content is rewarded with faster loot. That's still a better reward because it rewards me with saved time or simply being ahead in ilvl of others who take it slower.

I'm not fine with the easier content dropping the same loot that the harder content drops immediately, because that means we can both get the same reward on the same day but it took me more effort. It would make no sense for me to do the harder content then, and plenty of us like doing harder content for better rewards.

On the topic of LFR: I am fine with the current system (assuming you can get Tier tokens without being forced to do LFR). People who want LFR to be easier need to accept that with easier content come worse rewards.

You cant get above 252 from zm. And if someone grinds out 2s and 3s in M+, while you di 15s, you'll both arrive at 270+, it will just take them a lot longer. Is it bad that they can get close to your ilvl for doing massively easier content, even though the time could be double or tripled?

I may have missed it but I didnt see anyone asking for 270 gear from ZM or low keys. If I did, my bad

[Toph Nasty]

This has never been a requirement, ever. People take that term way out of context. There are other people... it doesn't mean you HAVE to interact with them. MMOs can be fully enjoyed solo. Those who do not want to interact with people are welcome to stick to LFR.

I think the point they were trying to get across was that if you want to raid at a higher tier you are going to need to be social, at least to a certain extent. Being social doesn't mean you need to get in discord and talk to your guild every night but you are going to need to interact with people to some magnitude to succeed in the game.

You are correct thought that MMO's can be enjoyed solo and there is plenty of solo content in this game. However, if you want to do everything solo and don't want to work with a group of players or pay for a run you shouldn't complain that you cannot complete the content you want to.

[Aydinx2]

MMOs can be fully enjoyed solo. Those who do not want to interact with people are welcome to stick to LFR.

I'm not saying they have to be social. But they have to accept that the game IS social and that not being social means you won't be clearing much.

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You cant get above 252 from zm. And if someone grinds out 2s and 3s in M+, while you di 15s, you'll both arrive at 270+, it will just take them a lot longer. Is it bad that they can get close to your ilvl for doing massively easier content, even though the time could be double or tripled?

No that's fine. As long as the players who can do higher aren't forced to do the easier content too (the way Tier pieces did for LFR until the catalyst was released).

I may have missed it but I didnt see anyone asking for 270 gear from ZM or low keys. If I did, my bad

Yup. There is a guy literally saying LFR should be unwipable and award the same gear as the other content.

[Necromantic]

I'm not saying they have to be social. But they have to accept that the game IS social and that not being social means you won't be clearing much.

To an extent, I do agree with that. There are some other MMOs that utilize features so that people can clear things without needing other people. Even FFXI and FFXIV with their trust system, you can do dungeons without others. You can do raids without others and the way they drop all the trash is very nice and friendly to casual time.

Not saying I want WoW to be like that game but there are options. It all depends on the dev's vision.

[Soikona]

Oh okay. Guess I should just do 11 toons' worth of dailies, right? Because fuck having fun in a video game, the only right way to play doesn't involve ever providing a service for other players.

What a joke.

Hold on, are you saying you didn’t agree that your choice of maintaining 11 alts shouldn’t take more time?

[Relapses]

You're choosing to keep 11 alts up to date. I don't get how you think this isn't 100% your own problem. Even weirder still is how you want to play 11 characters but don't actually want to "play" them so you instead take shortcuts.

Pretty sure you're addicted.

Buddy, how the fuck can you respond to a post where I say -- implicitly -- that I understand that this is a me issue by asking me how I don't understand this is a me issue? Moreover, it's pretty rich of you to claim that I'm not playing my characters correctly by refusing to do dailies on them. Maybe that's what the game is to you but that's not what it is to me. I'm not the one telling people how the fuck they should be playing WoW; I'm just making the very simple argument that if the WoW token didn't exist that players like me would feel more compelled to boost than they do presently. So unless your huge brain solution to all of WoW's ailments is to simultaneously outlaw bosting and remove the WoW token, all you're doing here is inserting your opinion about how you feel the game should be played into a conversation where absolutely nobody fucking asked.

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Hold on, are you saying you didn’t agree that your choice of maintaining 11 alts shouldn’t take more time?

We've already been over this. I don't enjoy dailies. I do enjoy dungeon content. If I can skip doing dailies (something I don't enjoy) to do dungeons (something I do enjoy) then who on earth are you (or anybody else) to judge me for the ways that I maintain these toons? If I boost or buy WoW tokens, the end result is the same. Right now I choose to buy tokens because it's easier; if the WoW token didn't exist I'd just boost. If neither existed, I'd probably quit.

[Soikona]

Buddy, how the fuck can you respond to a post where I say -- implicitly -- that I understand that this is a me issue by asking me how I don't understand this is a me issue? Additionally, it pretty rich of you to claim that I'm not playing my characters correctly by refusing to do dailies on them. Maybe that's what the game is to you but that's not what it is to me. And I'm not the one telling people how the fuck they should be playing WoW; I'm just making the very simple argument that if the WoW token didn't exist that players like me would feel more compelled to boost than they do presently. So unless your huge brain solution to all of WoW's ailments is to simultaneously outlaw bosting and remove the WoW token, all you're doing here is inserting your opinion about how you feel the game should be played into a conversation where absolutely nobody fucking asked.

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We've already been over this. I don't enjoy dailies. I do enjoy dungeon content. If I can skip doing dailies (something I don't enjoy) to do dungeons (something I do enjoy) then who on earth are you (or anybody else) to judge me for the ways that I maintain these toons? If I boost or buy WoW tokens, the end result is the same. Right now I choose to buy tokens because it's easier; if the WoW token didn't exist I'd just boost. If neither existed, I'd probably quit.

I can respect that, to a degree. The problem is that boosting is making groups difficult to find. Like I can’t find a jailer group for my weekly kill for the gavel, it’s literally just boosts. If boosting hadn’t become so explosive as it is, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. Now, if I want to raid outside of my raid hours, with people that are of similar skill, I have to pay 150k gold. This is not good for the game.

[Necromantic]

If I can skip doing dailies (something I don't enjoy) to do dungeons (something I do enjoy) .

They had this concept in Cata and should have kept going with it... tabards. People who hated grinding dailies, etc could grind rep with tabards. It gave them a very tangible path to progression. Even though some of the rep gains were small, people didn't care. They would spam dungeons for days to get exalted. This can easily apply to other aspects outside of rep so people can progress using whatever system they enjoy the most.

[Relapses]

They had this concept in Cata and should have kept going with it... tabards. People who hated grinding dailies, etc could grind rep with tabards. It gave them a very tangible path to progression. Even though some of the rep gains were small, people didn't care. They would spam dungeons for days to get exalted. This can easily apply to other aspects outside of rep so people can progress using whatever system they enjoy the most.

Yeah, I think it was MoP where Blizzard began to shift away from reputation grinding from dungeons. It's strange because when they announced Covenants they kind of positioned it as a different way to handle reputation grinds... then they added a reputation grind in ZM anyway. It seems like they really can't make up their mind on whether they want reputation to be a meaningful RPG element of WoW so they vacillate between opposite ends of the spectrum. I agree with you here, though, if they'd just stick with one single way to handle reps it'd help the game feel a bit more consistent.

[Aydinx2]

Buddy, how the fuck can you respond to a post where I say -- implicitly -- that I understand that this is a me issue by asking me how I don't understand this is a me issue? Moreover, it's pretty rich of you to claim that I'm not playing my characters correctly by refusing to do dailies on them.

You probably shouldn't make up things that I didn't say. Makes you look bad.

[Relapses]

You probably shouldn't make up things that I didn't say. Makes you look bad.

Then you shouldn't say things that you don't mean. You know, like this:

Even weirder still is how you want to play 11 characters but don't actually want to "play" them

...the quotation marks around 'play' heavily imply that I'm not doing something you think I should.

[Athenaia]

You understand they want to kill the mythic bosses for bis loot though, right? So for some reason, many feel they are too good for lfr, but clearly not good enough for mythic, but they want the mythic loot.

"I can't beat a challenge but I want its rewards"

Why would they want mythic BiS gear if they can't beat the boss?

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It´s people like this individual who have brought an absurd level of toxicty over.

No, game is not fine, it is unnecesarily overcomplicated. It has nothing to do with skills. You have amazing players struggling, because it is not about being good at WoW anymore, it is about being good at managing and setting up addons to be able to avoid 1 shot mechanics that none (yes, none) can see coming by merely playing the game without mods and ultra detailed guides telling you what to do... and in occasion live.. (positioning addons, Weak Auras spotting, etc) Sorry, that is no WoW skill.. that is having nothing better to do with your time.

Try to play the raids with no prior info other than, maybe, reading (yes reading not watching) a guide. No addons or other information allowed.

Good luck, you will simply wipe for weeks and come back here in agreement. Well, on second thought, you might not, because your kind does not aknoledge, only attack behind their screen for no reason. Very damaged people...

Yeah, mythic is way overcomplicated, have you tried doing heroic? Normal? LFR? There's a reason to have 4 difficulties in raiding.

Good luck to all non mythic players trying to keep with a pacing they can't.

[Necromantic]

Why would they want mythic BiS gear if they can't beat the boss?

We literally live in the new gaming era of "I want the reward without the work".

[zysis]

I likely know more about the game than 90% of the people who post here

ORLY?!

They had this concept in Cata and should have kept going with it... tabards. People who hated grinding dailies, etc could grind rep with tabards.

It's nice being the 10%... That was Wrath of the Lich King. lol

MMOs can be fully enjoyed solo

z

That is one of the funniest things I've read on these forums in a LONG time. That statement is up there with "I could solo this boss if I had a healer"... lol Seriously. The dribble is... well it's funny.

You need to stop pretending you speak for everyone in matters regarding your opinion. There's room for improvement in wow and it's always been a work in progress, some things work, some things don't. The fact is that trying to appeal to a broad market narrows the scope of the game in terms of what we now call content streams. It's no longer just PVE/PVP there are four streams of content in the game with a fifth coming in the next expansion. MMO gaming isn't as old as FPS or RTS. The backbone of Warcraft is older than the telephone, but there's always room to improve and remove some elements in the game. Some content gets more polish than others and some content is merely used as a filler or to entice new players or alts to catch up to the crowd.

I don't think there are many who see LFR as their only content stream and it is never designed as such. Zones allow catch up more than LFR and LFD is merely a stepping stone to get out of sub-optimal gear. -Also not a content stream. The world content is purely designed for alts and new subs to catch current content and has been that way since WoD. To imply that people stop there and don't move past it is well.. it's you trying to look down upon your fellow gamer so you can feel better about yourself.