STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[Relapses]

Hmm don’t believe I said any of this friend. Any system that caters to casuals more to get a feeling of actually having an end to your loot grind would be beneficial. Don’t really care what package it comes in.

You are very on edge it seems about badges. Did… the badges touch you?

Gee, the person you quoted mentioned something that "hasn't worked in a decade," and you said, "maybe they should bring back something that did work." Badges left the game... about a decade ago. Then, in other posts, you berated me and about a dozen other people for "failing to understand how WotLK's badge system works" so you'll have to excuse me for connecting the dots.

I don't really care much about badges further than to say that I think they're boring and any system that encourages their use should be avoided by the developers.

Oh, and I just have fun poking fun at people who clearly just want retail to be a slightly different version of WotLK.

[Royru]

Dont engage with Relapse, he's ragingly disgenuine and constantly praises any design by blizz to the point where he's either a troll, or just very sad.

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Yeah, any change to the loot system simply cant work in WoW due to the vastly over inflated ilvls that mythic+ brings. Not without decreasing the number of difficulties. Which they very much should do.

Oh I know, he is just upset with me because I made him eat his own words and sound dumb early on in this thread so now he replies to me randomly like this because he must still be upset.

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Gee, the person you quoted mentioned something that "hasn't worked in a decade," and you said, "maybe they should bring back something that did work." Badges left the game... about a decade ago. Then, in other posts, you berated me and about a dozen other people for "failing to understand how WotLK's badge system works" so you'll have to excuse me for connecting the dots.

I don't really care much about badges further than to say that I think they're boring and any system that encourages their use should be avoided by the developers.

Oh, and I just have fun poking fun at people who clearly just want retail to be a slightly different version of WotLK.

Wow had systems besides badges you know.

[Relapses]

Dont engage with Relapse, he's ragingly disgenuine and constantly praises any design by blizz to the point where he's either a troll, or just very sad.

Oh, so now it's trolling to imply that the game's current developers aren't retarded?

[Recovery]

I'd just like a substantive and well designed endgame loop that doesn't make me play M+, large raids, or rated pvp.

Just give it up already and go play FFXIV. If you dont like wow end game, its clearly not the game for you. At least they introduced M+. For the first 10 years it was just raid and pvp.

[Royru]

Just give it up already and go play FFXIV. If you dont like wow end game, its clearly not the game for you.

Using this logic you can't complain about anything ever again in wow ever.

[NineSpine]

Just give it up already and go play FFXIV. If you dont like wow end game, its clearly not the game for you. At least they introduced M+. For the first 10 years it was just raid and pvp.

I play lots of games. I understand that a lot of you guys haven't installed a different game in 15 years, but it is possible to play multiple games.

[Toby451]

Oh, so now it's trolling to imply that the game's current developers aren't retarded?

Yawn, if you honestly believe they are "retarded" you are beyond conversation.

[Diaphin]

Yeah you can get like the second best gear in the game or something in FF14 without doing premade content right?

Yeah, but lets be honest, is it really that much fun to attain that gear by every day running the same easy and unchallenging expert dungeons with the occasional alliance-raid roulette which is always Syrcus Tower or Labyrinth of Ancients than to do your typical WoW Open world Activities or dungeon events to get somewhere between normal and heroic level gear? At least to me personally, expert dungeons are what burns me out of FF14 every time I start playing it again. They are too easy after the first few times where you still learn the mechanics, they are a slog and especially as a healer, they are boring because you are basically just spamming one button over and over again.

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I'd just like a substantive and well designed endgame loop that doesn't make me play M+, large raids, or rated pvp.

You have the current open world zones which give you usually around normal raid itemlevel gear. With Zereth Mortis, you can even farm a full normal level t-set appereance through that alone, every single slot of the transmog. Which is actually more than you could aquire back when badges where a thing, then you would still miss the offset appereances.

[Echo of Soul]

I'd just like a substantive and well designed endgame loop that doesn't make me play M+, large raids, or rated pvp.

You're never going to get that in WoW. The developers are clearly in the mindset that if you don't do premade content you don't deserve a satisfying long term gear progression curve. If that's something that's important to you then you should play FF14 instead. WoW is a game for hardcore players only.

[Relapses]

Yawn, if you honestly believe they are "retarded" you are beyond conversation.

I said the opposite of that. Hello?

[NineSpine]

Yeah, but lets be honest, is it really that much fun to attain that gear by every day running the same easy and unchallenging expert dungeons with the occasional alliance-raid roulette which is always Syrcus Tower or Labyrinth of Ancients than to do your typical WoW Open world Activities or dungeon events to get somewhere between normal and heroic level gear? At least to me personally, expert dungeons are what burns me out of FF14 every time I start playing it again. They are too easy after the first few times where you still learn the mechanics, they are a slog and especially as a healer, they are boring because you are basically just spamming one button over and over again.

Expert and raid roulettes need a variety fix, but acting like the endgame loop for FF14 is just doing roulettes isn't really honest.

You have the current open world zones which give you usually around normal raid itemlevel gear. With Zereth Mortis, you can even farm a full normal level t-set appereance through that alone, every single slot of the transmog. Which is actually more than you could aquire back when badges where a thing, then you would still miss the offset appereances.

None of this is a substantive and well designed endgame loop. Professions, dungeons, battlegrounds, etc. etc. is all tossed aside and you are given one activity to grind out. WoW is a big game with lots of things to do. The fact that it struggles incorporating those things meaningfully into the endgame loop is embarrassing.

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You're never going to get that in WoW. The developers are clearly in the mindset that if you don't do premade content you don't deserve a satisfying long term gear progression curve. If that's something that's important to you then you should play FF14 instead. WoW is a game for hardcore players only.

WoW dies with just hardcore players.

[Relapses]

WoW dies with just hardcore players.

WoW also dies if casual players dictate every facet of the game's design. Making all forms of content queueable seems like a broad stroke solution to a more nuanced problem. Clearly Blizzard still values the group creation process to some degree because we know they've possessed the tools to automate it for eons. If they wanted, they could make M+ and raids up to Heroic a fully automated queue that matches people with similar MMR (score). Personally, I think they realize that the latent toxicity of the playerbase would make queuing this kind of content a waking nightmare for a non-insignificant portion of the game's audience (essentially further dividing the playerbase between those who run in premades and those who don't) so they're hesitant to implement it. You might get your wish though as I could see it being something they experiment with in the future.

[NineSpine]

WoW also dies if casual players dictate every facet of the game's design. Making all forms of content queueable seems like a broad stroke solution to a more nuanced problem. Clearly Blizzard still values the group creation process to some degree because we know they've possessed the tools to automate it for eons. If they wanted, they could make M+ and raids up to Heroic a fully automated queue that matches people with similar MMR (score). Personally, I think they realize that the latent toxicity of the playerbase would make queuing this kind of content a waking nightmare for a non-insignificant portion of the game's audience (essentially further dividing the playerbase between those who run in premades and those who don't) so they're hesitant to implement it. You might get your wish though as I could see it being something they experiment with in the future.

The problem is the exactly granularity you are already referring to. There shouldn't be this many difficulties and caveats. There should just be a queued version of the content and an organized version of the content, and the content needs to be designed to work well in a queue. Right now, the content is simply watered down until the queue works. That provides a bad experience for the queue. The content feels watered down. It feels lame.

[VMSmith]

WoW also dies if casual players dictate every facet of the game's design.

Interesting thought. How do you square this with the reality that there are so very many MMOs out there all squarely catering to the more casual crowd? The only MMO I can think of that is designing as WoW does, with the priorities of the topmost players in mind, is how SWTOR changed up their system in the new expansion. And, along with that, SWTOR's subs have plummeted off a cliff. And before anyone tries to claim "it was a buggy mess!", most bugs have been fixed and the community was in constant uproar over the return to Warcraft-style gearing.

If prioritizing casual design leads to failure, then how can so many games do it without utterly cannibalizing from each other? And, conversely, there is this huge open market for games prioritizing topmost players with no games other than Warcraft and SWTOR attempting to fill it ... both of which are losing players and goodwill constantly.

I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, but I'm wondering how this can be true given the current state of the MMO marketplace?

edit: editing to note that you did say "every facet", which I agree it would be disastrous to let ANY portion of a playerbase dictate "every" facet of a game. Just wanting to avoid the typical MMOC pedantism.

[Gorsameth]

The problem is the exactly granularity you are already referring to. There shouldn't be this many difficulties and caveats. There should just be a queued version of the content and an organized version of the content, and the content needs to be designed to work well in a queue. Right now, the content is simply watered down until the queue works. That provides a bad experience for the queue. The content feels watered down. It feels lame.

your queue content will always feel watered down and lame simply because of the audience for it.

Think about how unfathomably bad the average LFR/LFD player is. And then realise half of them are worse. That is the audience for auto matchmaking content. LFR is so watered down because anything that requires you to rub 6 braincells together is beyond them.

[Royru]

The problem is the exactly granularity you are already referring to. There shouldn't be this many difficulties and caveats. There should just be a queued version of the content and an organized version of the content, and the content needs to be designed to work well in a queue. Right now, the content is simply watered down until the queue works. That provides a bad experience for the queue. The content feels watered down. It feels lame.

100% this. Idk if anyone has ever played this game in here but destiny 2 is an excellent example of this. Not to mention the gearing process is HEAVILY HEAVILY casual sided. Every single person is capped out on a certain ‘item level’ and this item level is achievable by literally doing anything in the game. Que-able or not. The hardest versions of the games content only gives you very slight (and I mean slight) upgrades for each weapon/armor.

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your queue content will always feel watered down and lame simply because of the audience for it.

Think about how unfathomably bad the average LFR/LFD player is. And then realise half of them are worse. That is the audience for auto matchmaking content. LFR is so watered down because anything that requires you to rub 6 braincells together is beyond them.

The issue is the size requirements for these raids. Make the raids smaller. Make the fights manageable without comms. Disabling combat addons would allow for this to be a thing again.

[NineSpine]

your queue content will always feel watered down and lame simply because of the audience for it.

The queue content in plenty of other games feels stellar, especially FF14.

Think about how unfathomably bad the average LFR/LFD player is. And then realise half of them are worse. That is the audience for auto matchmaking content. LFR is so watered down because anything that requires you to rub 6 braincells together is beyond them.

That playerbase sucks because the content sucks and doesn't teach them to play the game. Know what happens when you ignore mechanics in FF14 queued content? You die. You stop having fun. What happens in WoW? You get healed through it and someone else does the mechanics for you. It's garbage.

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100% this. Idk if anyone has ever played this game in here but destiny 2 is an excellent example of this. Not to mention the gearing process is HEAVILY HEAVILY casual sided. Every single person is capped out on a certain ‘item level’ and this item level is achievable by literally doing anything in the game. Que-able or not. The hardest versions of the games content only gives you very slight (and I mean slight) upgrades for each weapon/armor.

Destiny 2 is the game I play "hardcore". I love their endgame loop. Know what has never had a negative impact on me? Casual D2 players getting BiS gear.

[Kirbydude65]

The problem is the exactly granularity you are already referring to. There shouldn't be this many difficulties and caveats. There should just be a queued version of the content and an organized version of the content, and the content needs to be designed to work well in a queue. Right now, the content is simply watered down until the queue works. That provides a bad experience for the queue. The content feels watered down. It feels lame.

So your solution is to make less modes for players? So that top end players complete everything quickly and are bored or that lower end players cannot progress? Because that was a large issue with older raids back in TBC and Wrath. Raids with one difficulty were either too easy (Naxx, Malagos, Sarth 3D), OR they were too difficult and players could not progress (All of Tier 5 in TBC or WoD prior to LFR).

Queable raids will not go beyond LFR. Just look at when Asmongold tried to roll into Sepulcher of the first ones. You want that to be a queable experience? Because that's exactly what you're condemning groups to with that.

Professions, dungeons, battlegrounds, etc. etc. is all tossed aside and you are given one activity to grind out.

You literally just mentioned all things hat help progress your character's power level. Professions are required for Legendaries and in BfA were a great source for Azerite Armor or a Piece of Crafted gear for PvE and PVP. M+ literally exists and has been an alternative gear route for many players over the last six years. Rated BGs have also been ways players have obtained high level PVP gear.

You don't like the fact that you have to form a group for these activities that's fine say that. But let's not act like WoW doesn't include multiple activities for you to progress your character. They might not all be elegant (Looking at you professions), but they exist.

[Echo of Soul]

100% this. Idk if anyone has ever played this game in here but destiny 2 is an excellent example of this. Not to mention the gearing process is HEAVILY HEAVILY casual sided. Every single person is capped out on a certain ‘item level’ and this item level is achievable by literally doing anything in the game. Que-able or not. The hardest versions of the games content only gives you very slight (and I mean slight) upgrades for each weapon/armor.

Yeah and games like that will always fail. You need a massive power difference between premade content and non premade content if you want a successful game with millions of players.

This is why Lost Ark will fail very soon, anyone can get the best gear in the game without manually forming a group.

[NineSpine]

So your solution is to make less modes for players? So that top end players complete everything quickly and are bored or that lower end players cannot progress? Because that was a large issue with older raids back in TBC and Wrath. Raids with one difficulty were either too easy (Naxx, Malagos, Sarth 3D), OR they were too difficult and players could not progress (All of Tier 5 in TBC or WoD prior to LFR).

Queable raids will not go beyond LFR. Just look at when Asmongold tried to roll into Sepulcher of the first ones. You want that to be a queable experience? Because that's exactly what you're condemning groups to with that.

More modes isn't more content. Too many modes is causing all kinds of problems in the game, such as player fragmentation, burnout, and item level inflation.

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Yeah and games like that will always fail. You need a massive power difference between premade content and non premade content if you want a successful game with millions of players.

This is why Lost Ark will fail very soon, anyone can get the best gear in the game without manually forming a group.

Destiny 2 absurdly, wildly successful. Bungie was just purchased for $3.6B and all they do is Destiny 2.