Are people really okay with the "new" race restrictions?

[Teriz]

It doesn't matter if the abilities are dependant of the dragon form, the dragon form is the race, the dragon form itself is not a class, the "class" si the pwoer they have.

Unless, again, you want to confirm to us this is a lazy class sold as race.

The class is dependent on the dragon form, and vice versa.

Dracthyr is the race, the class is evoker.

See above. One does not work without the other. That is the intention of the design.

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But you have said that Dracthyr are not dragons...

Where did I say that? Dracthyr are clearly dragons.

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Doesn't mean i have to like the visage form and also they have never SEEN any bloodelve or human. Ever. They didn't even exist before they got cut off from the world. But they have it fine. I can live with it. They won't delete them, i am not delusional. Doesn't mean i have to like it and have ti shut up about it.

I never said you had to like visage forms or even the Dracthyr. I'm simply explaining why these concepts are in the race/class.

[czarek]

Maybe thats the point to restrict it (for some time). Why ? To not fill whole servers to be full of one race/class :P

[Teriz]

Maybe thats the point to restrict it (for some time). Why ? To not fill whole servers to be full of one race/class :P

No, the point of restriction is to maximize the race/class fantasy of playing a dragon character with draconic powers. Mere racials could not accomplish this task, and slapping on "spirit dragon" limbs to existing races could not accomplish this task. The only way to do this is to create a dragon race that can only be the dragon class, and vice versa. That way you get very few limitations on either side of the equation.

[czarek]

No, the point of restriction is to maximize the race/class fantasy of playing a dragon character with draconic powers. Mere racials could not accomplish this task, and slapping on "spirit dragon" limbs to existing races could not accomplish this task. The only way to do this is to create a dragon race that can only be the dragon class, and vice versa. That way you get very few limitations on either side of the equation.

Umm yea if u say so. Imo they are just lazy and want avoid to overwhelm new race and class. Maximize fantasy please... this game is already burned to the ground with lore wise fantasy ideas to talk about.

[Supertoster]

No, the point of restriction is to maximize the race/class fantasy of playing a dragon character with draconic powers. Mere racials could not accomplish this task, and slapping on "spirit dragon" limbs to existing races could not accomplish this task. The only way to do this is to create a dragon race that can only be the dragon class, and vice versa. That way you get very few limitations on either side of the equation.

But it could be done in a better way.

Just disconnect visage form from dragon form. If you decide to play Evoker, your visage form will be your normal race, while your dragon form will come from class. Evoker uses dragon form for 100% of combat time. There is no need to connect dragon form to a race, it should be a class feature, like druid forms. Current customization of visage form could be applied to other races, like they did with DKs. Or, maybe, it is no needed at all, because extra customization could come form customizable dragon form. I mean, the whole point of visage form is to hide draconic nature and blend into other races.

[Royru]

There is no need to connect dragon form to a race.

To be fair, there is a need when they are trying to create a race that’s specifically just a dragon that specifically just uses magic from the aspects.

Think of something like a dryad. They were made to be a specific sort of thing. Their abilities largely stem from how they are born to be dryads in the first place. No one asks why dryads can’t become warlocks, because as a part of lore we largely accept that dryads ‘class’ would be considered this magical type of hunter. And that magical type of hunter is really only exclusive to dryads. No one cares about this because dryads aren’t a playable race, nor have they really ever been a focal point of the lore.

[Teriz]

Umm yea if u say so. Imo they are just lazy and want avoid to overwhelm new race and class. Maximize fantasy please... this game is already burned to the ground with lore wise fantasy ideas to talk about.

Well, it's not what I say so, it's what the stated design goal was/is. For the dragon expansion, Blizzard wanted to allow players to play as a dragon. Due to technical issues, they couldn't give us the standard looking dragon, so they developed the technical compromise in the Dracthyr race. The overall point of this concept is that you are a dragon akin to characters like Wrathion, Alexstraza, and Chromie, yet utilize the lore of Prismatic/Chromatic dragons in order to allow the ability to switch specs/flights/alignment.

People who call that lazy are simply being negative for the sake of being negative. It is a daring decision that's really never been done before in the history of WoW or Warcraft. In addition, I'm not aware of any MMO that allows you to play as a literal dragon. Perhaps as a draconic race that takes up the standard classes of every other race, but not a literal dragon character whose class abilities are its draconic attributes.

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But it could be done in a better way.

Just disconnect visage form from dragon form. If you decide to play Evoker, your visage form will be your normal race, while your dragon form will come from class. Evoker uses dragon form for 100% of combat time. There is no need to connect dragon form to a race, it should be a class feature, like druid forms. Current customization of visage form could be applied to other races, like they did with DKs. Or, maybe, it is no needed at all, because extra customization could come form customizable dragon form. I mean, the whole point of visage form is to hide draconic nature and blend into other races.

Again, that betrays the design and the lore of this concept. In lore dragons can assume the appearance of a mortal race, that is the Visage forms, and the purpose of the Evoker class is to mechanically give players the abilities of a dragon. Also the dragon form isn't your class ability, the dragon form is your true form. Making it like the Druid class unravels the entire thing and makes it more complicated than it needs to be. Druids for example aren't actually beasts, but Dracthyr Evokers are actually dragons. Worgen don't have a dedicated class that allows them to be werewolves, but Dracthyrs have a dedicated class that allows them to be dragons.

Again, its a completely novel concept that has some pretty obvious design goals. Again, you may not like those goals, or the idea behind this class, but they are what they are, and they make perfect sense given the lore behind them.

[Supertoster]

To be fair, there is a need when they are trying to create a race that’s specifically just a dragon that specifically just uses magic from the aspects.

Think of something like a dryad. They were made to be a specific sort of thing. Their abilities largely stem from how they are born to be dryads in the first place. No one asks why dryads can’t become warlocks, because as a part of lore we largely accept that dryads ‘class’ would be considered this magical type of hunter. And that magical type of hunter is really only exclusive to dryads. No one cares about this because dryads aren’t a playable race, nor have they really ever been a focal point of the lore.

This is a difference between hero classes and regular classes.
Regular class power comes from skills/knowledge/training. You can teach anyone to be a warrior or mage or hunter or whatever.
Hero class power comes from nature of the character. DK's powers come from their undeath nature, because they were resurrected, DH's powers come from their demonic nature, because they were infused with fel magic, Evoker's powers comes from their draconic nature, because they were created by dragon aspect.

Point is, Evoker does not need Dracthyr race to exist, because everything special about Evokers could be contained into hero class design.

I think that it would be better for Evoker to be just a hero class, which uses its chosen race as visage form. It will please much more people, because it will allow people to play as dragons and to play their beloved races at the same time + to have some special customization for races just like with DKs and DHs.

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Again, that betrays the design and the lore of this concept. In lore dragons can assume the appearance of a mortal race, that is the Visage forms, and the purpose of the Evoker class is to mechanically give players the abilities of a dragon. Also the dragon form isn't your class ability, the dragon form is your true form. Making it like the Druid class unravels the entire thing and makes it more complicated than it needs to be. Druids for example aren't actually beasts, but Dracthyr Evokers are actually dragons. Worgen don't have a dedicated class that allows them to be werewolves, but Dracthyrs have a dedicated class that allows them to be dragons.

I don't count new lore as an excuse for bad design decision simply because new lore could be changed and reinvented, because it is not implemented into the game yet.

Gameplay first, lore second.

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Also, Dracthyr are not dragons, they are dragonkin.

[panda040]

I think it's very lazy that the new (reskin) race is restricted to one class and is not able to show your armor/xmog. This is supposed to be an expansion defining feature.

10 years ago we got a brand new race that could play lots of other classes and a brand new class that lots of other races could play.

I feel like we're still regressing here.

No it's stupid and dumb and restricting and to top it all off the dragon race males look like twinks

hard pass, i'll stick to my warrior

[Royru]

Point is, Evoker does not need Dracthyr race to exist, because everything special about Evokers could be contained into hero class design.

Wait a second, says who? You? I hate to be this guy but if blizzard says the evoker classes abilities are specifically tied to a certain race then that’s how it is. There isn’t an argument here. You can say something like “I believe they should have designed the evoker class around races” and that would be a valid argument. But if they designed the class specifically around being a dracthyr, with the abilities being literally tied to the fact that you’re a dragon, then that’s how it is. This isn’t even a discussion here this is just how it is.

I don't count new lore as an excuse for bad design decision simply because new lore could be changed and reinvented, because it is not implemented into the game yet.

Gameplay first, lore second.

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Also, Dracthyr are not dragons, they are dragonkin.

That’s fine if that’s your personal opinion, but it just isn’t fact. In order for them to make it gameplay viable, they first have to change the lore. Proving lore comes first and then gameplay. Same thing happened with panda dk. First they said no pandas can be dks, because of lore reasons. Later they changed the lore so then the gameplay could follow. That’s fine if you don’t like that, but that’s not how it works.

Also it’s doesn’t matter if they are a dragon or dragonkin, if you want to start using the word dragonkin instead we can. The class is designed around being a dragonkin specifically.

[Syegfryed]

The class is dependent on the dragon form, and vice versa.

The class is dependant on the dragon form, but the dragon form is not the class, is the race.

See above. One does not work without the other. That is the intention of the design.

The intention of the design is lazy sell a class as race, two stones one throw.

[Teriz]

I don't count new lore as an excuse for bad design decision simply because new lore could be changed and reinvented, because it is not implemented into the game yet.

Gameplay first, lore second.

Except it isn't new lore, it's old lore. Dragons have been able to look like mortals since the beginnings of Warcraft with Deathwing and Onyxia both disguising themselves as mortals to wreck havoc in the alliance and the horde. Also Deathwing and Neferian were conducting experiments throughout the history of warcraft trying to create a race of superdragons that they could control. The Dracthyr are products of both parts of that established lore.

Also, Dracthyr are not dragons, they are dragonkin.

Blizzard has called them dragons on multiple ocassions.

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The class is dependant on the dragon form, but the dragon form is not the class, is the race.

If your intention isn't to lock Evokers with Dracthyrs, then Visage form and aspects of the Dragon form becomes pointless.

The intention of the design is lazy sell a class as race, two stones one throw.

In your opinion. There's no other way to make such a class concept without locking the two together.

[Syegfryed]

If your intention isn't to lock Evokers with Dracthyrs, then Visage form and aspects of the Dragon form becomes pointless.

hum, what? that have nothing to do with what we talked.

In your opinion. There's no other way to make such a class concept without locking the two together.

Thats not an opinion, they literaly remade demon hunter into a ranged class, changed tank for healer, and sold as new race

you can lock the class to the race, but there is no need or reason to lock the race to the class, neither ahve reason to make the dragon form not use weapons.

Is a lazy and lame concept made to cut costs and work

[Teriz]

hum, what? that have nothing to do with what we talked.

Again, I'm explaining the design goal to you. If your goal to allow the player to be a dragon, you have to lock both the race and the class together. Neither can be separated, or the concept falls apart and doesn't gel with established lore.

Thats not an opinion, they literaly remade demon hunter into a ranged class, changed tank for healer, and sold as new race

Incorrect. They took the concept of dragons and made it into a class. Blizzard personally doesn't believe that Dragons are melee creatures, and that instead they utilize their wings, tail, and breath abilities to attack and keep targets at range. That makes sense. It has nothing to really do with Demon Hunters beyond Blizzard wanting to create a polar opposite class, which draconic lore allows them to do.

you can lock the class to the race, but there is no need or reason to lock the race to the class, neither ahve reason to make the dragon form not use weapons.

You do that because if you don't multiple features that makes the race look draconic need to be reduced or omitted. For example, the massive wings on the back of the Dracthyr;




Would be a huge problem with standard armor, weapon, and non-Evoker class animations.

[Supertoster]

Wait a second, says who? You? I hate to be this guy but if blizzard says the evoker classes abilities are specifically tied to a certain race then that’s how it is. There isn’t an argument here. You can say something like “I believe they should have designed the evoker class around races” and that would be a valid argument. But if they designed the class specifically around being a dracthyr, with the abilities being literally tied to the fact that you’re a dragon, then that’s how it is. This isn’t even a discussion here this is just how it is.

Yes, I am. I have an opinion, a can declare it and as a customer I have all rights to judge Blizzard design decision. If I see that decision is bad and there is a clearly better decision that will please much more players - I have all rights to say it.
It is called feedback and whatever you are saying is called appeal to authority fallacy.

That’s fine if that’s your personal opinion, but it just isn’t fact. In order for them to make it gameplay viable, they first have to change the lore. Proving lore comes first and then gameplay. Same thing happened with panda dk. First they said no pandas can be dks, because of lore reasons. Later they changed the lore so then the gameplay could follow. That’s fine if you don’t like that, but that’s not how it works.

Again, gameplay first, lore second. There was a gameplay problem - lack of paladins in Horde. Solution: add Tauren paladins. Lore change, that came with it: addition of Sunwalkers. No matter when Sunwalkers lore was released - itw whole purpose was to justify Tauren paladins.

Also it’s doesn’t matter if they are a dragon or dragonkin, if you want to start using the word dragonkin instead we can. The class is designed around being a dragonkin specifically.

This is crucial. Dracthyr are not dragons, because dragons are not humanoid specie. They are a new dragonkin. Other Dragonkin: Drakonid, Dragonman (Maloriak) and Dragonspawn.
Being a new dragonkin means that Dracthyr are not obligated to follow already existing lore of Dragons. Because they are not dragons, they are a new thing.
Being a new thing means that their lore is new and can be anything. Their new lore will justify their gameplay features or excuse their gameplay limitations.
Their lore could be much better, because in current form it creates an excuse for unnecessary gameplay limitations, which prevents more players to enjoy a new class.
Lore design that pleases more players because it justifies more gameplay options and excuses less gameplay limitations is always better than lore design that pleases less players because it justifies less gameplay options and excuses more gameplay limitations. You don't need to be a genius or have a bachelor degree in gamedesign to understand that.

[Royru]

Yes, I am. I have an opinion, a can declare it and as a customer I have all rights to judge Blizzard design decision. If I see that decision is bad and there is a clearly better decision that will please much more players - I have all rights to say it.
It is called feedback and whatever you are saying is called appeal to authority fallacy.



Again, gameplay first, lore second. There was a gameplay problem - lack of paladins in Horde. Solution: add Tauren paladins. Lore change, that came with it: addition of Sunwalkers. No matter when Sunwalkers lore was released - itw whole purpose was to justify Tauren paladins.



This is crucial. Dracthyr are not dragons, because dragons are not humanoid specie. They are a new dragonkin. Other Dragonkin: Drakonid, Dragonman (Maloriak) and Dragonspawn.
Being a new dragonkin means that Dracthyr are not obligated to follow already existing lore of Dragons. Because they are not dragons, they are a new thing.
Being a new thing means that their lore is new and can be anything. Their new lore will justify their gameplay features or excuse their gameplay limitations.
Their lore could be much better, because in current form it creates an excuse for unnecessary gameplay limitations, which prevents more players to enjoy a new class.
Lore design that pleases more players because it justifies more gameplay options and excuses less gameplay limitations is always better than lore design that pleases less players because it justifies less gameplay options and excuses more gameplay limitations. You don't need to be a genius or have a bachelor degree in gamedesign to understand that.

This whole thing can be summarized to one statement.

If blizzard’s lore says they can’t, then they can’t. There is nothing more to add to the discussion. If you *believe* it should or if you *believe* they should have designed the class differently, then we just agree to disagree.

Saying things like “it doesn’t matter what the lore says” is just ignorant. Because if blizzard says it matters, then it obviously matters. There’s no debate about this topic.

[Supertoster]

Again, I'm explaining the design goal to you. If your goal to allow the player to be a dragon, you have to lock both the race and the class together. Neither can be separated, or the concept falls apart and doesn't gel with established lore.

If your goal to allow the player to be a cat, you have to lock both the race and the class together....
FALSE.
You just make a class that allows player to turn into a cat. Which is Druid.

Also, Dracthyr are not dragons. They are dragonkin, which is a closest option available for players to have draconic fantasy without allowing them to play actual dragons, because actual dragons are huge, not bipedal and not humanoid.

Would be a huge problem with standard armor, weapon, and non-Evoker class animations.

We already have a precedent of a race not showing some slots of armor - see Mechagnomes.

Also, clipping never was a problem for Blizzard, because all weapons already clip through cloaks and other backpack items.

[Cathfaern]

So you were complaining about demon hunters too, then? Since they're 1 race per faction, effectively being the same thing.

Well, for start that's already double amount of races. But yeah, if I want to be honest I simply like the elf races, so I was fine with that. If they would allow visor form to be used in combat (similarly like DH and metamorphosis) and allow to use elf races for visor form most likely I would also not complain. So yes, if I want to be honest I complain because I don't like the current race for Evoker which is the only option for it. If they would come up a new class which can be I don't know only Worgen, I would also complain.

If we want to talk not just about we, Blizzard already had a ton of statistics that blood elves are already the most played race and night elves are not much behind. So it was a totally safe decision because they knew most people will like the race anyway. Not so much for Dracthyr. Especially since the original idea was to use visor form just as a "cosmetic out-of-combat toy", so they could not even depend on the popularity of the visor forms. If we really want to use the DH analogy it's like if they would only allow DH to be in the metamorphosis form, just have a spell to transform back to night elf / blood elf out-of-combat.

[Supertoster]

This whole thing can be summarized to one statement.

If blizzard’s lore says they can’t, then they can’t. There is nothing more to add to the discussion. If you *believe* it should or if you *believe* they should have designed the class differently, then we just agree to disagree.

Which is called a feedback. Players provide feedback exactly because they agree or disagree with devs decisions. Good feedback provides reasoning behind it. If reasoning is good then it is in devs interest to follow this feedback and make changes. Because it is in dev interest to make the game good and the whole purpose of feedback is to make the game better.

[Teriz]

Being a new dragonkin means that Dracthyr are not obligated to follow already existing lore of Dragons. Because they are not dragons, they are a new thing.
Being a new thing means that their lore is new and can be anything. Their new lore will justify their gameplay features or excuse their gameplay limitations.

And your own argument is exactly why they are in fact Dragons. They follow dragon lore, and because of that they have those lore limitations.