Proof that old Talents promoted more originality from players

[Santti]

In a way, yes, they were more diverse, in that the old talent tree had fuck-ton of different possible permutations. But it was pretty much an illusion, as you only ever had very few "free" talent points floating around, after you got all the essentials. People were also generally worse back then, as theory-crafting wasn't quite as big as it is now.

There was also the problem of each expansion making the trees more and more unwieldy, as we got more talent points, making it harder to balance. I can remember there being few cases where the talent trees got a little problematic, because of it.

[Necromantic]

That's certainly one way to approach it, but it comes with consequences. If you don't care about others, they also don't have to care about you. If you're fine with that, it sort of works (within limits).

Of course most of the time this isn't an actual issue at all, and things just proceed with unspoken mutual agreement. But it's the edge cases that highlight the problems: when people demand respect for their choices, but refuse to offer respect for other's choices. Especially when it comes to respect for time.

Yep, I fully understand and I'm 100% ok with that. When I go into random groups, I have 0 expectations beyond par. That way, I don't get my hopes up or get overly emotional like some people do when things don't go smooth as butter. I go into every group expecting wipes or something to happen. That way, I don't get upset when it does.

People seem to forget that a lot of the content in this game is multiplayer based (obviously), and while you paid for the game and somewhat have the right to choose how you want to play it, you can't forget that when in certain situations, your choices will affect others which in my opinion might not be fair (for example like others have said, doing less dps because you're playing a sub optimal spec).

I'll mess around with specs when I'm doing solo content, or content with friends who don't mind, but when pugging I'll play whatever is optimal.

If I'm having a lot more fun in a spec that's doing slightly less damage, that's exactly what I'm going to do. World of Warcraft is a game, no matter how you try and spin it. If you're not having fun playing a game, why play it? I'm not suggesting going out of your way to make others miserable. And no, someone choosing a spec doing 5% less DPS but having a lot more fun is NOT making you miserable. And I say that to those who pretend it does. If you want people who are min/maxing, go find a guild. Expecting random people to adhere to your personal standards is asinine. What's to say you yourself even know what you're talking about?

[Nerph-]

If I'm having a lot more fun in a spec that's doing slightly less damage, that's exactly what I'm going to do. World of Warcraft is a game, no matter how you try and spin it. If you're not having fun playing a game, why play it? I'm not suggesting going out of your way to make others miserable. And no, someone choosing a spec doing 5% less DPS but having a lot more fun is NOT making you miserable. And I say that to those who pretend it does. If you want people who are min/maxing, go find a guild. Expecting random people to adhere to your personal standards is asinine. What's to say you yourself even know what you're talking about?

I agree with you to an extent. This is a game afterall and the point is to have fun. I was just talking about how I personally play so that I don't hinder others, but that's me. And I'm in no way a min/max'er or someone who is 100% certain I'm playing the most optimal spec to exist.

I agree with you that 5% less dps is not anything to make a fuss about, but if your chosen spec is causing a problem due to low dps or hps, whatever, then I feel you need to be prepared for the consequences of your choices.

[Khaza-R]

I don't really understand the counter point in this thread. Yes, you had cookie-cutter builds in the old system being pervasive. But you have that now too. It seems like nothing is being lost and only gained for those who like to tinker with experimental builds.

[potis]

Yep, I fully understand and I'm 100% ok with that. When I go into random groups, I have 0 expectations beyond par. That way, I don't get my hopes up or get overly emotional like some people do when things don't go smooth as butter. I go into every group expecting wipes or something to happen. That way, I don't get upset when it does.



If I'm having a lot more fun in a spec that's doing slightly less damage, that's exactly what I'm going to do. World of Warcraft is a game, no matter how you try and spin it. If you're not having fun playing a game, why play it? I'm not suggesting going out of your way to make others miserable. And no, someone choosing a spec doing 5% less DPS but having a lot more fun is NOT making you miserable. And I say that to those who pretend it does. If you want people who are min/maxing, go find a guild. Expecting random people to adhere to your personal standards is asinine. What's to say you yourself even know what you're talking about?

The problem has never been about the 5% difference between specs and talents.

The problem is simple.

Character is supposed to be doing 10k DPS with meta/fotm, call it whatever spec, other talent choices, make him go down to 8.7k DPS, it doesnt matter, boss needs 8.5K DPS to die in Heroic as example lets say.

We know this, math is there, variables are all there, tested, thats the only data you have thats 100% accurate.

Then you factor in, the player and you know the proper spec from the secondary specs have that difference, you cant know how terrible the player is, but you know that even if he is terrible, the talent choice will produce 5-10% more dps no matter what.

Thats what matters with talents and illusion of choice, if everyone was decent at the game, we wouldnt care, no one would care but when a character thats supposed to be doing sustained between 6k to 7k DPS with any talent choice, is doing 3.5K dps for whatever reason that player has, imagine that character doing 2.5k DPS because "MAH TALENTS"

[Necromantic]

The problem has never been about the 5% difference between specs and talents.

The problem is simple.

Character is supposed to be doing 10k DPS with meta/fotm, call it whatever spec, other talent choices, make him go down to 8.7k DPS, it doesnt matter, boss needs 8.5K DPS to die in Heroic as example lets say.

We know this, math is there, variables are all there, tested, thats the only data you have thats 100% accurate.

Then you factor in, the player and you know the proper spec from the secondary specs have that difference, you cant know how terrible the player is, but you know that even if he is terrible, the talent choice will produce 5-10% more dps no matter what.

Thats what matters with talents and illusion of choice, if everyone was decent at the game, we wouldnt care, no one would care but when a character thats supposed to be doing sustained between 6k to 7k DPS with any talent choice, is doing 3.5K dps for whatever reason that player has, imagine that character doing 2.5k DPS because "MAH TALENTS"

I understand all that. The point is that you're talking randoms with randoms.

Joe Blow tells me "You should use X talent instead of Y talent because it's mathematically better". I tell Joe Blow where he can go. I don't know him. I don't know if what he's saying is a load of crap. He claims "it was tested". Tested by who? Was that person who conducted the test even competent or were they one of the thousands of people out there who claim they're testing things but really have no clue what they're doing.

In your examples, if a boss takes 8.5K DPS to beat and someone is doing 8.7K DPS, they're technically fine. Just because they're not going above/beyond does not make them bad players.

[potis]

In your examples, if a boss takes 8.5K DPS to beat and someone is doing 8.7K DPS, they're technically fine. Just because they're not going above/beyond does not make them bad players.

See, thats where you are confused and basically are completely misinformed and therefor wrong about the subject.

The robot playing at 99% mega high skill level and guild with another 19 robots in the simming will do 8.7K DPS with the wrong talents, the average human wont, now this was an example because the tuning isnt that tight and the HC boss will need 7k from everyone to die , but that is my point, it will need 7K, and with overgearing and stuff you can do it even if you are bad at the game.

But there are limits how bad at the game you can be, the higher you go, and talents is one of those limits.

If the character of 100 ilvl can do 10k DPS, and he must do 7K DPS, but because he is bad he is doing 6k DPS, aka 40% less, and then the talent choices, because its multiplicative scaling, he ends up doing 52% less at something like 5K, then we have a problem.

The latest risk can be eliminated by not taking anyone with the wrong spec, and voila, illusion of choice.

Obviously there are more variables, as i said, a good player with the wrong spec, WILL outperform a baddie always, no matter what, but the way the community demands WoW to be, aka "LET ME PLAY WHENEVER", despite the game has always been about guilding up, it will never work otherwise.

Basically, once more, the fact the community is low skilled is the problem and not the game or design.

[Necromantic]

No, I'm not wrong.

You basically reworded exactly what I said.

And if the community is low-skilled, that's where you fix game design to accommodate. My company learned this the hard way. Engineers made these robust and detailed work instructions for the factory floor. They used all kinds of technical terms, technical references, etc. They forgot that most of the team members working in the factory are either right out of high school, were flipping burgers yesterday or just general untrained labor. They're not going to understand all that technical jargon. While the instructions may be "right", they're not going to be effective given to the target crowd.

[enigma77]

Yea, it's really no different to how it is now, there's the standard cookie cutter build and niche talents that you occasionally use. As a Blood DK I'm switching talents fairly often in Sepulcher.

What? There is a world of a difference.

With the current bad talents you have no choice whatsoever. There is no way to make some crazy build.

[FelPlague]

Except these builds are shallow and you're still forced into a specific play style. If I don't select any talents right now it ultimately doesn't matter. With the old system you could completely change your play style with a few choices.

tell me you have not spent more then 2 seconds looking at the talents, as the current talents DRASTICALLY change your play style, like seriously what are you on about?
the old talents actually usually effected you less, as each tree had a couple active abilities, the current trees have far more

[potis]

No, I'm not wrong.

You basically reworded exactly what I said.

And if the community is low-skilled, that's where you fix game design to accommodate. My company learned this the hard way. Engineers made these robust and detailed work instructions for the factory floor. They used all kinds of technical terms, technical references, etc. They forgot that most of the team members working in the factory are either right out of high school, were flipping burgers yesterday or just general untrained labor. They're not going to understand all that technical jargon. While the instructions may be "right", they're not going to be effective given to the target crowd.

Again, you are wrong, or your example is wrong.

In my explanation and example, i am telling you that if your untrained labor worker uses 2 hands, aka the fotm/corrrect/cookie cutter build, he is supposed to produce X number of production or whatever you are doing, if he produces X-40% because he chose to use 1 hand and 3 fingers because he feels like it, and its his fun, therefor not productive or a liability, he wont remain in the company i am not explaining that "Ability does 2000x(attack power/0.34)+5% Monk Debuff, which your implied that i am doing with your engineering example.

Not sure what programming language WoW is using, and how the abilities work, have anything to do with the ability to press them, which again, is your wrong example.

[Infinity Cubed]

tell me you have not spent more then 2 seconds looking at the talents, as the current talents DRASTICALLY change your play style, like seriously what are you on about?

Good one! I laughed heartily.

Maybe a handful of specs have talents where they push a button at different time (if they're used at all) in a given rotation. If you call that DRASTIC, wow, I wish I could live in your world. Everything must be spectacular for you.

- - - Updated - - -

People seem to forget that a lot of the content in this game is multiplayer based (obviously), and while you paid for the game and somewhat have the right to choose how you want to play it, you can't forget that when in certain situations, your choices will affect others which in my opinion might not be fair (for example like others have said, doing less dps because you're playing a sub optimal spec).

"Form your own group." Again, problem solved. Except for when it's told to you, then it's unacceptable and the game and ALL other players must acquiesce to your preferred way of playing it. Because you, and you alone, are the only one playing it "right." Amirite or amirite? I'm rite.

[potis]

Good one! I laughed heartily.

Maybe a handful of specs have talents where they push a button at different time (if they're used at all) in a given rotation. If you call that DRASTIC, wow, I wish I could live in your world. Everything must be spectacular for you.

Everything has to be similar, so Bobby the Paladin can do the same DPS as Tommy the Warrior, homogenization of the game is a product of the community, stop blaming the company and it happened 12 years ago, not last 2 expansions.

The new talent system has generally been "A couple talents that make leveling easier, and generally when you are an undergear scrub, more survivability", "Obvious BIG CLEAVE BURST TALENTS" and "Passive cleave talents" in their majority, again a product of the community crying 24/7.

[FelPlague]

Good one! I laughed heartily.

Maybe a handful of specs have talents where they push a button at different time (if they're used at all) in a given rotation. If you call that DRASTIC, wow, I wish I could live in your world. Everything must be spectacular for you.

- - - Updated - - -


"Form your own group." Again, problem solved. Except for when it's told to you, then it's unacceptable and the game and ALL other players must acquiesce to your preferred way of playing it. Because you, and you alone, are the only one playing it "right." Amirite or amirite? I'm rite.

Bro, most specs talent trees have an activatable ability in EVERY ROW.
some may miss a row or 2 but most allow you to drastically change the rotation of your spec, the fact you say "Maybe a different button at a different time" is even more proof you know nothing you are talking about.


Passive, changes one abiltiy from single target to also be aoe
Active aoe abiltiy that requires soulshards
active aoe/single target that makes your demon run in and do massive aoe

passive, makes your spells randomly make your next dreadstalkers free and instant cast.
activate, causes you to sacrifice imps with this ability to give you extra instant cast demon bolts that deal more damage at the cost of imps
active- 20 second tick dot that generates soulshard

passive
active- move far faster at cost of draining health
active- sacrifice large amount of hp to gain massive shield

passive- makes your dreadstalkers into a burst phase, as it increases all your damage done by 20% for the next 12 seconds after casting the spell, making dreadstalkers a "mini burst phase" instead of just a normal everyday dot.
Active- free instant cast shadowbolt you need to weave in every so often that scales off mastery
active- summons a massive demon that deal lots of damage soulshard cost and cast, another demon that needs to be weaved into tyrant

passive
active- a quick heal and fear
active- aoe fear

passive- drastically changes up your rotation as every time you cast a spell it has a chance of being refunded
passive
active- summons a huge demon, again soulshard cast, but instant, needs to be weaved into your tyrant

passive- focuses on summoning lots of demons, with each demon buffing your damage
passive- this talent has a MASSIVE play on summoning as many demons as you can and then consuming their hp to massivly buff your tyrant
active- this COMPLETLY changes your playstyle, causing you to hoard as many resources as possible, then cast this portal, as doing so makes all soulshards spent for the next 15 second summon a demon, so you need to hoard as many resources as possible, cast this, then dump all the soulshards you can.



talent to talent drastically changes how this spec plays, and this isnt even with legendaries or covenants which change them even more, this is just base, and playing demonolgy with no talents compared to these is a MASSIVE difference.

[Necromantic]

Again, you are wrong, or your example is wrong.

In my explanation and example, i am telling you that if your untrained labor worker uses 2 hands, aka the fotm/corrrect/cookie cutter build, he is supposed to produce X number of production or whatever you are doing, if he produces X-40% because he chose to use 1 hand and 3 fingers because he feels like it, and its his fun, therefor not productive or a liability, he wont remain in the company i am not explaining that "Ability does 2000x(attack power/0.34)+5% Monk Debuff, which your implied that i am doing with your engineering example.

Not sure what programming language WoW is using, and how the abilities work, have anything to do with the ability to press them, which again, is your wrong example.

No, you are wrong. And my example is just fine. You're trying to twist my words up to paint your own narrative and that's a very dated forum tactic.

Most WoW players are "pick up and go". Sure, there are guides out there but I've see plenty of guides that give bad information or tips. I've also seen plenty of players discredit several guides too. "I looked at the guide on X site" "LOL that was your first mistake". Who's right?

Because of the fact that min/maxers are not even remotely close to being the majority, you can't just cater to them and expect that to be where the bar is set.

[Kralljin]

well not anymore since with no lfd dungeons in wolk will be as dead and filled with boosters as in tbc atm .

Yes, because Dungeon finder doesn't virtually nobody will do dungeons anymore.
No one will do Daily Heroic, or any ICC dungeons, everyone will sit in Dalaran and wait until raid day comes, manually form their groups for a raid, but doing that for a dungeon is absolutely unthinkable.

And boosting has little do with that discussion because it mostly affects leveling dungeons (where this whole niche spec thing barely applies), and they've already said they'll probably fix boosting similiar to SoM.

Nevermind that this has absolutely nothing with the discussion at hand.

[Infinity Cubed]

Bro, most specs talent trees have an activatable ability in EVERY ROW.
some may miss a row or 2 but most allow you to drastically change the rotation of your spec, the fact you say "Maybe a different button at a different time" is even more proof you know nothing you are talking about.

I'm aware. "THE CHANGE TO PLAYSTYLE IS INCREDABLEZ U GUYZ! Like, I push this same button that I put a different ability in AFTER I push this other button rather than BEFORE it, and if I select THIS talent I don't even touch dat button except maybe once in a blue moon! HOLY SHIT, SO DYNAMIC! SO AMAZING! ARE YOU JELLY OF HOW DIVERSE MY AMASING PLAYSTYLE IS U GUYZ?!?! Sumtimes I even change a trinket, too. Whooooooaaaaaaaa. ELITE."

That's pretty much you, in a nutshell.

Compare to, say, a Rogue back in vanilla who's actual playstyle did change depending on what talents they chose, requiring completely different weapons and positining in combat, as well as totally different rotations that were more than a change of one or two buttons.

[FelPlague]

I'm aware. "THE CHANGE TO PLAYSTYLE IS INCREDABLEZ U GUYZ! Like, I push this same button that I put a different ability in AFTER I push this other button rather than BEFORE it, and if I select THIS talent I don't even touch dat button except maybe once in a blue moon! HOLY SHIT, SO DYNAMIC! SO AMAZING! ARE YOU JELLY OF HOW DIVERSE MY AMASING PLAYSTYLE IS U GUYZ?!?! Sumtimes I even change a trinket, too. Whooooooaaaaaaaa. ELITE."

That's pretty much you, in a nutshell.

Compare to, say, a Rogue back in vanilla who's actual playstyle did change depending on what talents they chose, requiring completely different weapons and positining in combat, as well as totally different rotations that were more than a change of one or two buttons.

lololol what? "Different positioning in combat"
you are a rogue, your positioning is you stand behind the boss, there is no fucking spec where that would change.
"different weapons" that does not really change per "talent" that changes per spec, assassination uses daggers, no matter the build you go. and idk if you know but on live you change weapons aswell...

also lol show me, show me the fucking talent trees where choosing different talents in the same tree would completly alter your rotatation and weapon choice, show me.

cause you get FAR more active abilities from your current talent trees then you did the originals.

bro you wanna stop talking out your ass, show it.


cause wotlk when the talent trees were at their largest, combat rogue gave you a WHOPPING....
4 abilities.
one of them only working if you got attacked.

but sure show me the talent trees that drastically changed you playstyle if you chose different talents in the same tree, ive been playing this game for 16 years and my job requires me to do research on these old trees nearly daily, so I know a fair bit. and want to know more, so teach me the glorious ways.


also wanna point out, your understanding of how talents work on retail is STILL fucking hilariously wrong but ok, i listed above how the demonogly talents for example drastically change your rotation but go off i guess.

[Infinity Cubed]

lololol what? "Different positioning in combat"
you are a rogue, your positioning is you stand behind the boss, there is no fucking spec where that would change.

♬ Wrongity, wrong wrong, wrongity wrong wrong, look at Wrongy go... ♩

also lol show me, show me the fucking talent trees where choosing different talents in the same tree would completely alter your rotatation and weapon choice, show me.

Sure! No problem! Combat spec. The names of the fucking talents, alone, are a small hint. "Dagger Specialization." "Sword Specialization." "Mace Specialization." "Fist Weapon Specialization." And if you invested in "Improved Backstab" you really needed to be behind your target, whereas if you didn't and focused on a non-backstab setup, you could get away with more diverse positioning options, especially with adds without sacrificing much DPS. Warriors had similar drastic changes, while a few other classes had similar options available; Shaman being a big one where their entire playstyle would change even in the same role as DPS (particularly between investing in Elemental vs. Enhancement talents, as opposed to ones where their entire roles changed, obviously).

You were saying, Einstein?

[FelPlague]

♬ Wrongity, wrong wrong, wrongity wrong wrong, look at Wrongy go... ♩


Sure! No problem! Combat spec. The names of the fucking talents, alone, are a small hint. "Dagger Specialization." "Sword Specialization." "Mace Specialization." "Fist Weapon Specialization." And if you invested in "Improved Backstab" you really needed to be behind your target, whereas if you didn't and focused on a non-backstab setup, you could get away with more diverse positioning options, especially with adds without sacrificing much DPS. Warriors had similar drastic changes, while a few other classes had similar options available; Shaman being a big one where their entire playstyle would change even in the same role as DPS (particularly between investing in Elemental vs. Enhancement talents, as opposed to ones where their entire roles changed, obviously).

You were saying, Einstein?

"weapon spec"
How did these change your playstyle? how did these change your rotation?
you said they changed your rotation, these are random proc passives, show me how they drastically change your rotation as you said. and also you rarely ever changed to these builds you changed the build to what weapon you had.

"you really needed to be behind your target"
yeah you are a fucking melee dps you ALWAYS needed to be

Hey guys i pressed shadowbolt, but now i REALLY needed to press shadowbolt
wow absolute pinnacle of class customization!!!!!!!


also i wanna point out your example of "your rotation changes in the old talent unlike the new trees, just look at shaman where your rotation changed between enhancement and elemental!"

Man i am so fucking sad that they removed spec changing in retail, gosh darn i miss the days of being able to change between enhancement and elemental on my shaman, really wish they would undo that change. cause i remember back when i played on my shaman literally yesterday enhancement and elemental have entirely different rotations and abilities.

but i guess you are right, because they removed spec changing on live, because only classic allows you to change spec.