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  1. #21
    Bolvar was reanimated through dragonfire too.

  2. #22
    Scarab Lord Oneirophobia's Avatar
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    This shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody. We have demons and the fel raising the dead since the warcraft RTS games and continuing to do so even in Legion at Black Rook, we have critters from the void and void elves reanimating the dead with void magic, we even have botani raising the dead with nature magic in Everbloom.

    It does sort of beg the question, "what exactly is death magic?" though...

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    It's just that necromancy literally means "death magic."
    No it doesn't? It's adapted from the Latin word necromantia, which was derived from Greek nekromanteía, meaning literally "dead body divination," or "Divination of the Dead." I.E the practice of seeking knowledge of the future or the unknown [from the dead] by supernatural means. It means more "using magic on the dead" than it means "death magic."

  4. #24
    Technically we've been seeing this for years. Remember that mana bomb in Netherstorm that turned everyone into ghosts? Arcane necromancy, effectively.

    Though that does beg the rather confusing question what the difference is between rezzing someone as a priest and turning them into a light-zombie is, because there clearly is one.
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  5. #25
    Not news, prepare for people to rush in whining about "retcons".

    This really happened so often right and left in Warcraft that I am glad they finally put it in small words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Though that does beg the rather confusing question what the difference is between rezzing someone as a priest and turning them into a light-zombie is, because there clearly is one.
    I imagine the difference could be that the spirit already departed or some sort of its connection to physical body was severed and had to be rebound artificially.
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Technically we've been seeing this for years. Remember that mana bomb in Netherstorm that turned everyone into ghosts? Arcane necromancy, effectively.

    Though that does beg the rather confusing question what the difference is between rezzing someone as a priest and turning them into a light-zombie is, because there clearly is one.
    Well maybe we're all light zombies and have been for years and no one ever realized it!

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Though that does beg the rather confusing question what the difference is between rezzing someone as a priest and turning them into a light-zombie is, because there clearly is one.
    I imagine it's probably mostly a matter of time between death and resurrection. The rezzing the players do, for example, using happens minutes or even seconds after death so the body would still be partially alive even if the heart has stopped. A human in real life can be revived even minutes after the heart is stopped and that's even without magic. When Calia died it was, if I recall correctly, at least a few hours between death and resurrection since they had to physically carry her body to the Netherlight Temple.

  8. #28
    Scarab Lord Polybius's Avatar
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    Necromancy could still have originated from Death magic, with other schools learning it later on. It’s more to do with returning the soul to the body. Death magic has the advantage of reanimation without the soul, or multiple souls, hence the mindless undead or aboms constructs.

  9. #29
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Resurrection probably differs in the fact that your spirit is re-linked to a functioning living body and that is what makes it a rare/a legendary accomplishment (in lore). Or resurrection requires the caster to intercept the soul before its too far in the Shadowlands.

    Meanwhile Necromancy doesn't necessarily heal the body, doesn't stop decay without additional magic, and you can't recover most living function. It also has a lower requirement to accomplish. You aren't returned to your body as it was, you're just trapped inside what it is now.

    So they're sorta the same concept, only the former is the actual feat you want and Necromancy is the result most get.
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  10. #30
    What is Death Magic then if not for the purposes of reviving and reanimating the dead?

    What actually is death magic and how does it differ from, say, shadow magics?

    I agree that the ends make no differentiation as to the process of reanimation, but necromancy is specific to necromancy, whereas Calia's return to life is not necromancy. It's lazy to call it that.

  11. #31
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So when a Death Knight uses Raise Dead, Apocalypse, or Army of the Dead, they're not using Necromancy?
    The hell you're talking about?

    They are using necromancy. The difference now is that necromancy has been defined as a type of spell, much like abjuration, transmutation, illusion, etc. It's no longer a type of magic, like Elemental, Arcane, Light, etc.

    Technically, it always was, since we saw the books already defining necromancy as such way back in Wrath, but anyways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Makes sense to me. We've seen several different schools of magic do the same things, from raising the dead as undead to true resurrection. It's pretty straightforward and an interesting take. You can use whatever school of magic you practice to do a certain act and it's all the same thing.
    That is true, however, such information has always been "thinly implied", never outward explained. Until recently, it was believed that "necromancy" was a type of magic, like arcane and elemental.

    I'm glad we got that clarification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Th3Scourge View Post
    What is Death Magic then if not for the purposes of reviving and reanimating the dead?
    Death magic is magic that sources its power from the realm of the dead, just like elemental magic is magic that sources its power from the elemental planes.

    What actually is death magic and how does it differ from, say, shadow magics?
    "Shadow magic", canonically, is specifically void magic.

    I agree that the ends make no differentiation as to the process of reanimation, but necromancy is specific to necromancy, whereas Calia's return to life is not necromancy. It's lazy to call it that.
    Dude, the lore literally spells it out to you that what brought Calia back was necromancy. Necromancy is just a type of spell, not a type of magic.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    So, doing the new quests in 9.2.5 there is an interesting lore tidbit that separates "necromancy" and "death magic":



    So, the lore is that necromancy is not the equivalent of death magic, and can be performed by other magic types, such as the Light and also by other magic types. I wonder how that will affect things in the long run. What are you guys' take on this?
    Well, we know Fel (Mannoroth; Felmyst), Void (Nerz'hul's skeletons; Umbric's devilsaur) and now Light (Calia Menethil) can raise the dead.

    But, i always assumed they stole the secrets of necromancy from the Shadowlands and incorporated it into their own magic. And, it makes sense because we know the Dreadlords infiltrated Fel, Void and Light and were the ones who experimented with necromancy during the War of the Ancients and were in charge of the Scourge.
    Last edited by username993720; 2022-06-02 at 04:33 AM.

  13. #33
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Well, we know Fel (Mannoroth; Felmyst), Void (Nerz'hul's skeletons; Umbric's devilsaur) and now Light (Calia Menethil) can raise the dead.

    But, i always assumed they stole the secrets of necromancy from the Shadowlands and incorporated it into their own magic. And, it makes sense because we know the Dreadlords infiltrated Fel, Void and Light and were the ones who experimented with necromancy during the War of the Ancients and were in charge of the Scourge.
    Nature and Light had used 'necromancy' for the longest time, considering they've always been able to resurrect the dead. Nobody "stole the secrets of necromancy" from Maldraxxus.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Nature and Light had used 'necromancy' for the longest time, considering they've always been able to resurrect the dead. Nobody "stole the secrets of necromancy" from Maldraxxus.
    Resurrection isn't necromancy, is it?
    We're talking about raising an Undead, not a perfectly live being.

    Not stole. But, was probably integrated by the Dreadlords.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmatrix View Post
    So blizzard is opening the doors to new Forsaken types in the future? Add in some dark rangers possibly going back to the Night Elves and you might just get them as a new class in the future, necromancy powered by Elune.
    A class about the cycle of Life and Death? A theme that is repeated quite heavily in the Shadowlands.

    Just realized that points to Night Elf warlocks.
    Probably not.
    Night elf Warlock would most likely come from the Shendralar Highborne.
    Last edited by username993720; 2022-06-02 at 06:02 AM.

  15. #35
    Brewmaster Alkizon's Avatar
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    Arrow

    So this then?
    (magic type speaks about nature of results/consequences and methods, but not about its possibilities, rhetoric behind it - can be applied, purposeful, appropriate, but mechanics of action and consequences of application will be somewhat different, albeit similar in semantics, which are being discussed here right now in current topic)

    I'm afraid that such a statement does little to "order" their existing concept as a whole, since they didn't have (and still don't) full-fledged implementation of "death" magic and "monipulation of life energy" (aka blood/anima magic), they remained in essence just virtual/non-valuable/non-rooted concepts (which leads to mixed, chaotic consistency of opinions/understandings/perceptions/interpretations of what is happening here and there in lore and game itself in relation to them)



    Very interesting, and suddenly friend's priestess' background ceased to be so utopianly inconsistent...
    summary: - human priestess, former powerful forsaken one, who was reborn in newborn&living body by combining two directions (h+s) contrary to Dark Lady, in process of rebirth she saw many possible future, but subsequently lost her memory, so now slowly walking along ways of re-awareness of one's strengths and capabilities, and under influence of rolling back memories... as cherry on pie~ being in care of dwarf "former" paladin, friendly and companionable engineer and heavy drinker, thus being key uniting link in motley company of all characters from friend's account (of both factions).
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2022-06-07 at 08:50 AM.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    how the fuck did you come to that conclusion?
    Using the same "logic" that's always used to dismiss new information as a "retcon".
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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    So with the new questline of undeads retaken Lordaeron we hear a Maldraxi saying that necromancy can be done with different types of magics and that got me thinking, we have actually seen several examples of other magics doing necromancy.

    we have seen the void summoning undeads in many times.

    we have Alextranza and the red dragonflight that can perform a weird type of necromancy using life magic.

    we have Calia that is a light undead.

    We have Guldan resurrecting Magtheridon with fel.

    In the old lore, Kelthuzad performed necromancy using arcane magic and you could think of it even now as Kelthuzad practicing necromancy using arcane magic at first and then switching to death magic because it was easier.

    and obviusly we have the typical necromancy through death magic.


    Do you know any other examples of different types of magic other than death performing acts of necromancy?? or do you think that there are arguments to refute that claim?.
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Cru...lakin_Sainrith

    Interestingly enough, the player revives a crusader using the light after gathering his body parts. So calia isn't the first case of someone being fully revived using necromancy with light magic

  18. #38
    Warchief Lupinemancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    So with the new questline of undeads retaken Lordaeron we hear a Maldraxi saying that necromancy can be done with different types of magics and that got me thinking, we have actually seen several examples of other magics doing necromancy.

    we have seen the void summoning undeads in many times.

    we have Alextranza and the red dragonflight that can perform a weird type of necromancy using life magic.

    we have Calia that is a light undead.

    We have Guldan resurrecting Magtheridon with fel.

    In the old lore, Kelthuzad performed necromancy using arcane magic and you could think of it even now as Kelthuzad practicing necromancy using arcane magic at first and then switching to death magic because it was easier.

    and obviusly we have the typical necromancy through death magic.


    Do you know any other examples of different types of magic other than death performing acts of necromancy?? or do you think that there are arguments to refute that claim?.
    Aegwynn even supposedly ressurected Medivh with what we assume is Arcane Magic.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Th3Scourge View Post
    What is Death Magic then if not for the purposes of reviving and reanimating the dead?

    What actually is death magic and how does it differ from, say, shadow magics?

    I agree that the ends make no differentiation as to the process of reanimation, but necromancy is specific to necromancy, whereas Calia's return to life is not necromancy. It's lazy to call it that.
    I guess it's simply magic using anima?

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Though that does beg the rather confusing question what the difference is between rezzing someone as a priest and turning them into a light-zombie is, because there clearly is one.
    If I had to make a guess, resurrection literally brings the person back to life by healing the wounds that killed them and restoring all of their bodily functions such as breathing, digestion, reproduction, etc, while necromancy, whether from death or light or any of the other cosmic forces, merely animates their flesh without healing it, allowing the soul to return to and control their body, sense the world, but without giving them back their bodily functions - hence why undead don't sleep, eat, breathe or give birth to children.

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