Proof Survival should be a tank spec in Dragonflight

[Super Kami Dende]

The name alone justifies it being a tank.

What a dumb conclusion. They are called Survival Hunters because they are based around Traps and Beast-like manoeuvres to live in the Wild, as in they are Hunters that Lorewise are Survivalists.

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So you're saying if you had a favourite spec in game and it got completely changed you'd be fine with it?

No, but they removed DPS Blood DK and turned it into a Tank and I moved on from it.

[Chain Chungus]

What a dumb conclusion. They are called Survival Hunters because they are based around Traps and Beast-like manoeuvres to live in the Wild, as in they are Hunters that Lorewise are Survivalists.

What a dumb response. You didn't actually say anything that changes the fact that being a survivalist wouldn't mean surviving damage, you know, like a tank. Explain why dps needs to survive as opposed to doing damage. Traps have nothing to do with surviving and beast attacks are the realm of beast mastery.

[Cinnamilk]

What a dumb response. You didn't actually say anything that changes the fact that being a survivalist wouldn't mean surviving damage, you know, like a tank. Explain why dps needs to survive as opposed to doing damage. Traps have nothing to do with surviving and beast attacks are the realm of beast mastery.

Have fun when you starve to death in the wild or get mauled in the face trying to tank a bear.

Base hunter class fantasy has a few parts that are left out or heavily emphasized as they specialize. The obvious one is ranged attacks, which survival still has in limited form of abilities and a utility CD.

Then is pets, which marksman loses at 10 (but still has vestigial beast-themed Murder of Crows, rip that talent) and BM leans into.

Then you have gadgets n traps, which is the obvious survival lean. I still remember using the tar trap flare legendary in early SL, so the other specs still have some of that in utility at least.

In none of the base parts is let the thing rip your face off for your friends. In fact, you get the antithesis of that in MD, FD, and disengage, which ALSO fill out the survivalist niche in the class.

In any class that can tank, the non-tank specs borrow a little bit of tankiness from the tank spec and it makes sense. Nothing in hunter makes sense to be tanky; your survivability shit is moreso for your pet (Exhiliration, mend pet, turtle into revive pet), or it's for crap to make the target temporarily forget you(turtle, FD).

Your proposal is like you found the word for survivalist in the dictionary and didn't actually grasp the proper use.

[MrLachyG]

This is where we are in Shadowlands:

• Current tank specs: 6
• Current healer specs: 6
• Current melee specs: 13
• Current ranged specs: 11

Dragonflight adds 1 healer class and 1 ranged class.

Dragonflight with Evoker:

• Current tank specs: 6
• Current healer specs: 7
• Current melee specs: 13
• Current ranged specs: 12

This is nearly balanced, but not quite. Survival can help re-balance it. If you consider the community response to Survival since it's melee change - most of current Survival players are only playing it because of it's damage output, not because the spec itself is good. Then things could look like this.

Dragonflight if Survival turns into a tank spec:

• Current tank specs: 7
• Current healer specs: 7
• Current melee specs: 12
• Current ranged specs: 12

This incidentally makes Tank and Healer specs be 18.4% of the available specs, close enough to the 20% they should be to have a healthy population to enable Dungeons.

So this is the statistical case to make Survival into a tank spec. Blizzard I believe in your come back, you can do it!

we seem to have differing opinions on what "proof" means. there is no proof here, just a wish of what you want because you believe it will balance things out and make queues shorter despite there being no evidence it will

[Utrrabbit]

All SV hunters I know play it because it's fotm of the month in M+ Meta. Maybe you don't play with ppl who care much about M+?

Well all the m+ I play with push low keys so perhap, 20+ keys are low so.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

So... not actually proof at all, just something to appease your OCD.

[gd8]

So you're saying if you had a favourite spec in game and it got completely changed you'd be fine with it?

Also if someone like me pops up every time SV is mentioned shouldnt that tell you that Blizz fucked up big time and upset alot of Hunters with their asnine move?

Every spec in this game has changed drastically time and again, the survival of vanilla for example is nothing like the version of survival you want back. You are simply stuck in the past and can't handle change

[Celement]

I don't know what niche is left for tanking that would break the game... dh and monks are already off and on again issues in terms of balancing.

[Fyersing]

Very much this. Having more tank classes available has never translated into having more tanks in the player population.

It's amazing that this rationale is proffered by so many people, as if it actually has any real merit as an argument.

1. If the number of people who choose to tank remains static when new tank-capable specializations are introduced, then the number of people who choose to deal damage or heal must also be static — that's how numbers work. Therefore, utilizing the same exact rationale, introducing new DPS or healing specializations must be considered as superfluous and "unnecessary", too.

2. If we assume that a majority of players will decide to play (or not play) a new class based off of the roles it can fulfill, and that a minority of players will decide to play (or not play) a class based off of the aesthetic it provides, then there is only one real outcome that is possible from a numerical standpoint: proportionately, there will be less people tanking than before their introduction.

The same way there were less people healing after the Death Knight was introduced, and less people healing after the Demon Hunter was introduced.

[huth]

It's amazing that this rationale is proffered by so many people, as if it actually has any real merit as an argument.

1. If the number of people who choose to tank remains static when new tank-capable specializations are introduced, then the number of people who choose to deal damage or heal must also be static — that's how numbers work. Therefore, utilizing the same exact rationale, introducing new DPS or healing specializations must be considered as superfluous and "unnecessary", too.

Well, yes. No new spec was actually necessary for anything outside of providing more variety. Which this wouldn't do, since we'd also lose a DPS spec at the same time.

[Xath]

Bullshit, more tank specs don't make more tanks.

Having more tanks that have a viable ranged dps option will absolutely lead to more tanks for 5 man content

[Fyersing]

Well, yes. No new spec was actually necessary for anything outside of providing more variety. Which this wouldn't do, since we'd also lose a DPS spec at the same time.

Right, just speaking to logic of his comment in general.

The percentage of people playing any role doesn't usually proportionately increase when they add new specializations that can perform that role, but the percentage of people playing any role almost always proportionately decreases when they don't add new specializations that can perform that role — the new Evoker, for instance, is going to result in less tanks overall and less mDPS overall, just as a numerical reality.

[Xath]

So by your logic every new class until the end of time should have a tank spec, since we are always in need of more tanks?

Yeah no thanks lol. My only point was that adding a new tank class does not result in an influx of new tanks, as is the speculation around these parts. Which is correct. And has been proven many times over already.

All these words to argue something I was not talking about.

Name the last time a tank with a raid viable RANGED dps spec was added

[Fyersing]

So by your logic every new class until the end of time should have a tank spec, since we are always in need of more tanks?

Yeah no thanks lol. My only point was that adding a new tank class does not result in an influx of new tanks, as is the speculation around these parts. Which is correct. And has been proven many times over already.

All these words to argue something I was not talking about. Also you don't know that there were less healers when DKs were introduced. Could have been that already pre-existing dps and tank players all went to DK and healer players didn't, which did not affect the healer population at all. Do you have the data to show otherwise?

If there is even a remotely conceivable justification for them having a tanking specialization, then the answer is yes — adding new (mDPS, rDPS, healing, tanking) specializations doesn't really increase the number of players interested in performing (mDPS, rDPS, healing, tanking) roles, but not adding new (mDPS, rDPS, healing, tanking) specializations will absolutely decrease the number of players interested in whichever role is absent.

To use the Evoker as an example. The overwhelming majority of people that pickup the class are going to be people that are currently healing or currently rDPS, but there will absolutely be some number of players that swap from either a mDPS or a tank — that means less tanks and less mDPS. An easily solved dilemma, from a design perspective, but Blizzard likes to embrace creativity instead of staying true to their own setting.

[Xath]

What's that got to do with anything?

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Tbh I'm not really sure what you're even arguing against..

Because the shortage in raids are ranged dps there is an absolute saturation level of melee dps. Every single tank outside druid only has a melee spec for dps. People aren't going to play their non raid classes just to tank for pugs.

[paxen]

They've been trying to add tank specs to fix the shortage since Wrath. Hasn't worked, won't work.

That said, even as somebody who turned into a dps main for SL (my guild is full of casuals surprisingly competent at heal and tank, but absolutely horrible at dps), I kinda miss being able to fill another role when I play hunter/mage/lock/rogue. It would be nice to be able to tank or heal if I felt like it, instead of being stuck in eternal queues.

But role swapping 4 specs isn't the answer. Maybe blizz could implement something that allows you to tank or heal in *queued* content (LFD, LFR), but isn't expected to be able to perform up to par in high keys or heroic raids.

Oh and also Survival in Dragonflight needs to be able to choose between Mad Bombardier and Fury of the Eagle from Legion. It's been the only two fun iterations of the spec.

[Xath]

They've been trying to add tank specs to fix the shortage since Wrath. Hasn't worked, won't work.

That said, even as somebody who turned into a dps main for SL (my guild is full of casuals surprisingly competent at heal and tank, but absolutely horrible at dps), I kinda miss being able to fill another role when I play hunter/mage/lock/rogue. It would be nice to be able to tank or heal if I felt like it, instead of being stuck in eternal queues.

But role swapping 4 specs isn't the answer. Maybe blizz could implement something that allows you to tank or heal in *queued* content (LFD, LFR), but isn't expected to be able to perform up to par in high keys or heroic raids.

Oh and also Survival in Dragonflight needs to be able to choose between Mad Bombardier and Fury of the Eagle from Legion. It's been the only two fun iterations of the spec.

I'd say add specs personally or at least add a 3rd spec to evok that can tank

[Kiria]

Every spec in this game has changed drastically time and again, the survival of vanilla for example is nothing like the version of survival you want back. You are simply stuck in the past and can't handle change

LOL You know nothing about me at all, also you think you do but you don't.

[Ielenia]

This is where we are in Shadowlands:

• Current tank specs: 6
• Current healer specs: 6
• Current melee specs: 13
• Current ranged specs: 11

Dragonflight adds 1 healer class and 1 ranged class.

Dragonflight with Evoker:

• Current tank specs: 6
• Current healer specs: 7
• Current melee specs: 13
• Current ranged specs: 12

This is nearly balanced, but not quite. Survival can help re-balance it. If you consider the community response to Survival since it's melee change - most of current Survival players are only playing it because of it's damage output, not because the spec itself is good. Then things could look like this.

Dragonflight if Survival turns into a tank spec:

• Current tank specs: 7
• Current healer specs: 7
• Current melee specs: 12
• Current ranged specs: 12

This incidentally makes Tank and Healer specs be 18.4% of the available specs, close enough to the 20% they should be to have a healthy population to enable Dungeons.

So this is the statistical case to make Survival into a tank spec. Blizzard I believe in your come back, you can do it!

So, in short, you have absolutely zero "proof", much less evidence of your claim that the hunter's Survival spec will become a tank spec in Dragonflight.

You only have your own conjectures and wishful thinking.

[Xath]

The ranged vs melee DPS debate has nothing to do with tanks though.. although I do agree that there are a metric fk ton of melee vs ranged DPS these days. And there was also one more tank spec in the game than there are healers, so it sounds like blizz did perfect by making this new class ranged/healer and nothing else, evening out the specs moreso than before

Yes it does. The only raid characters that can tank outside boomkin are all melee this heavily limits how many raiding players can tank on their mains outside if raids aka in 5 man content where there is a shortage.